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    Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 4:50pm
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Titanium
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I have a question about blunt, scalloped or flat face lures that are unweighted heads.

It is hard sometimes to asses the performance of a lure in its position particularaly on a rigger, ****e I even find it hard to see the short corners.

What I'm trying to assess is with this type of lure, with skirts that represent top and bottom colours is it revolving or maintaining a set true tow.
Testing beside the boat gives no true indication.

That is also taking into account wether you have a locked in rig or a swivel, or a keeled hook unweighted or a weight hook for keeling with a locked in position.

Looking for observations feedback.
Just cruising in my now sweetas pimped out Southern 755 HT0!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Fishb8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 9:38am
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I have some 'upside down' lures with white belly down - had a good number on them. Also some single coloured like very dark purple - looks black except for bright sunlight.

Sometimes I wonder if the colour or head shape matters at all??
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MATTOO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 1:02pm
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Titanium
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Fishb8,

As far as lure heads go.
Certainly they do offer options, they impart movement, bubble trails and sound.

As for colours. Well I was always a believer of the possibility but like most of us probably not enough miles to be sure.

I read a recent article on marlins capability to see colour.
They have amazing colour recognition and quite a spectrum.
This was a scientific study on there eye construction and paths to there brain.
Just cruising in my now sweetas pimped out Southern 755 HT0!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Jaapie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 3:41pm
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Bit tough following exactly what you are asking but the blunt faced or flat faced lures you are referring to, I'm surmising tubes??

They were designed in Hawaii for the flat calm conditions and from my experience are not that brilliant for Aussie / NZ waters.

You are right about the lure swimming in the way the hooks are rigged. Again, from my personal experience we rig them with one hook only and don't pin them.

They swim best on the long riggers and you do have to adjust height at times and even shorten/lengthen distance depending on if you are towing into the swell/ across or whatever.

They are difficult to get to swim perfectly in varying seas, but those calm days they certainly fizz and kick up a spray.

EDIT: Hope this info helps - have re-read the post and I think the key is single hooks and not pinned to allow the lure to settle into its own rhythm.
"Only when the last tree has died, the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught,will we realize that we cannot eat money" - 19th Century Indian Creed
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MATTOO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 4:30pm
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Hi Jaapie,
Appreciate your response and I could of done better in the details of my question.

I agree with your summation of free swing hooks, I term these as keeling hooks, for me generally unweighted slightly oversize to head size and on a swivel behind the head with the skirt ending about the tip of the hook point or to a centremeter behind the eye of the hook up the shaft of the hook.

This position allows the hook to have no impediments with keeling and as I use this setting for all my hooks it allows enough room in the gape of the hook for no interference of the skirt in a clean hook up.
99 percent of my lure rigs for large pelagics are single hooks.

Back to my original question, which is after looking at a large number of my straight runners while I'm now re rigging for next season 90 percent are not weighted or horizontally balanced heads.
So I'm trying to evaluate how they can remain true.
ie; the eyes left and right on a horizontal plane and the coloured skirts doing the same.
This is of course from a centre hole towing point not an offset like a Zuker.
Just cruising in my now sweetas pimped out Southern 755 HT0!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Catchelot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 4:40pm
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A few of my lazy thoughts and opinions to your questions Matt; Embarrassed

I believe all skirts are not symmetrically perfect, hence they will never swim with out spinning/turning albeit slowly.

A hook rides sort of upwards on about 20-30 deg angle and they slowly will rock and roll sideways, albeit slowly, dependent upon speed, water movement and much more... but now with the influence of the skirts movement also. The idea of the Pakula keel weight is to make the hook rig to ride upwards as stable as possible and having a pivot point just behind the head with a ball bearing swivel. This offers that flexibility and freedom of movement to keep the lure swimming more stable with the hook up and at the ready. Versus a stiff hook rig fixed into the rear of the head and the entire system moves/spins together. Hookup rate can be greatly reduced...

Some heads are more stable than others, pushers and cup faced for instance. The heads with their glorious eyes and coloured inserts and shapes may only be appealing to fisho's because when a pusher/cup face is in the water they tend to drag/pull a big bubble around the head some of it smoking out down the lure skirt, but staying within the head until the lure pops up to the surface to breathe - so to speak - and then the cycle commences, hence not much of the head is seen by the predator. I think these lures are better in NZ & perform well in rougher conditions also, again for stability, making them presented well and easier for the predator to bite, swipe, whack and get hooked solidly.
 
Cut face, angled, kona heads may be better on flat calm days to create more splash, noise and excitement, hence their popularity in the tropics and the calm Ozzy waters,etc.

If you know there are fish in the area and you aren't getting bites, put out some smaller lures. Sometimes its matching the hatch and copying the baitfish in the area and on the mood of the predators on the day, if they don't want to expend their energy they may not strike at the bigger lures and will the choose smaller prey as they are easier to catch. Look at the cedar wood plugs that Atlantic fisherman troll and catch Bluefin Tuna on.

Marlin are alleged to see shades of blue, whereas Broadbill have superior eyes and can see colours, especially at depths. 
Black and purple work so well because the dark silhouette contrasts very well to predators that check out the closer in white water behind the transom. So we would presume marlin come in from below and sometimes from behind, so how much detail, colour, soft white under-bellys, size of bait shape do they need to see to signal a bite? And from behind way back on the shotgun position why is an orange or pink coloured bullet shaped lure with lesser action chosen over the others, shy fish, lazy or even desperately hungry fish perhaps...?

I am quite drawn to big Nomad Bibbed Minnow lures running down below surface skirted lures to be part of the action, noise and attraction also. Teasers with hooks perhaps.

Should we run white and translucent under-belly coloured lures or something that makes a massive white smoke/bubble/air trail, combination of black and white... with fresh squid slivers wrapped under the squirts...

Lazy ideas for winter thoughts.

You decide Matt...WinkClap




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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote mangre 2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 4:41pm
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the tube works the way it should if calmed down, ie heavy leader, pinned 180 degree hook set. Awesome lure in calm water.  the tube is the water that incases the whole lure. making it appear larger. should run straight just under the surface, with a rooster tail as it rises.
Beautiful is better than ugly, Explicit is better than implicit, Simple is better than complex, Complex is better than complicated.      http://oceanmobilemap.blogspot.co.nz/
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MATTOO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 5:29pm
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Holy Crap,
Shudder of excitement bent with incredulous belief of what's in front of my eyes. And no pussy or puns or cryptic involved.

You know that comment is with respect right.

Truely Catchelot and mangre,

Great insight,
I'm on the same path.
Just questioning my point of view.
Those points are so valid and sometimes in the cave of reconstruction those questions raise there head.
And particularaly in a questionable season such as I have had.

mangre2,
Heavy leader!?
Not sure I gel to that in understanding.
The leader is doing what in what position.
How does the 180 degree stay at180 degree.
If pinned it can rotate with the lure if it's neutrally balanced.

Al,
Match the hatch is my standard for any fishing. But a obvious point constantly needed to remind all fisherman new and experienced.

A fan of water column fishing, will check the nomads for troll speed, so the spread still works.
And that's the best post from you in yonks.
I knew you had that in you.
To much knowledge sitting idle me thinks.

Paul had not considered the surface area of the tube before, seems so obvious now. The ruts of thinking we get in eh.

Thanks Al.
Thanks Paul.
Just cruising in my now sweetas pimped out Southern 755 HT0!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote waynorth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 5:35pm
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Another interesting question - and possibly where you were going with your original post Mattoo - is that most fish - predator or prey - have dark backs and light bellies, in order to better reduce their visibility when viewed from above or below.

Why then do we rig our lures the same way, especially when they have asymmetrical heads with a designed top/bottom. Surely it would be smarter to maximise their visibilty and run the skirts upside down. Anyone tried it ? Why for that matter do a lot of skirt colours even have an obvious top & bottom ?

I suspect symmetrical lures do rotate or at least roll from side to side quite a bit, but that's based on little more than a pretty even pattern of bill rash on my more successful lures. I imagine there are lure makers out there who could answer this one a bit more scientifically.



 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MATTOO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 7:12pm
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Interesting observations waynorth.

I think you answered your first question in paragraph two.
But as you suggested why not the reverse.

Definetly a profile observed by a predator is like most tools we use in either lures or baits.

So we match the hatch first. Size and profile on what a predator is eating is its first recognition point. No matter what angle it's viewed from.
So a profile with shadow formats that represent that profile are second. And then colour formats are third.

These are high speed recognition points by the predator.
We add colour, movement, distress assimilation or isolation position we profile the perfect picture that a predator sees as an opportunity in its favour.

When we consider the profile and colours also in view points,of sight, wether sunlight, backlit, in a cloud of interference such as bubble trails or disturbed water from our props and wake we have to consider which is best.
All of the above.

From a hunters point of view.
These are Points after the fact so to speak,
As firstly we have to be in the right place or zone,
That zone is generally needed to be an active feeding zone.
Then our intrusion via a vessel has to be an attraction via noise and disturbance. Our tools in the water are our extra noise and visual stimulants representing food profiles.
And thus begins our lure formats.

As for lure makers,
They are just good observers, no science really. Just time in the water.
Proof of that is in the lures available worldwide.
The only person I have ever noted for close to a scientific observation has been Steve Campbell. Who mainly concentrated on blue marlin in Tonga.
Happy to be corrected there.

As with many interests there are always view points.
There are mine, right or wrong.
Just cruising in my now sweetas pimped out Southern 755 HT0!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote jakepitsville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2019 at 1:07pm
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Some of my best lures in days gone buy were run with colours upside down, but then other lures ran light side down etc and all seem to work
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Adam Scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2019 at 1:13pm
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Symmetrical lures do rotate regardless of hook rig. See for yourself, take the swivel out of your rig and see just how fast the line twists up.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote mangre 2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2019 at 4:26pm
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 It probably rolled, but if you could get them to run right, theY have straigh bubble trail, rather than a pop and wiggle.  600lb leader full length is what we used, on advice from the lure maker.
Beautiful is better than ugly, Explicit is better than implicit, Simple is better than complex, Complex is better than complicated.      http://oceanmobilemap.blogspot.co.nz/
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote KikBac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2019 at 5:57pm
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Matt, there are some excellent videos on the Pakula website showing a single hook, double hook and double 60 deg offset hooks being trolled and the amount of roll etc. The lures tend to roll a little but almost always ride hook point up. Worth checking out...
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MATTOO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2019 at 8:11pm
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Good responses,

Jake to true, I think this is common, right profile right place.
Adam, pleased for your insight especially your skill base.
Paul, legend, info always insightful.
Kicbac your quite right, useful tool.

Adam have done, your right of course.
Does make me question why lures that aren't weighted are even produced.
As Jake points out and you probably will know they still catch fish, right.
I'm wondering wether unweighted is a cheap product and wether balanced is better.
I suggest the latter is a percentage increase.
A percentage increase is an advantage I believe.

Paul the weight of the leader at 600lb is an inhibitor to most lure performance. Particularaly on riggers and shotgun.
This comment is balanced with lure size.
I sense you are making us aware of the wear factor of a spinning lure on the trace.
This would be balanced by a reduction in trace weight as the lure and sea conditions allow.
I say this as I'm a firm believer in less visibility of trace, big on movement of a lure..
This conversation also has to have context for this country where our bill species in the main are smallish and the big ones we get are limited in numbers at the moment.
I should also comment that this trace weight can be mitigated by placement.
The corners will show no obvious detrimental result.
A launch with stiff riggers can also be an advantage by height and the stiffness of the riggers keeping the clip and trace weight out of the water.

Kickbac,

Pakula's vids are legendary base info, actually better than that, a base of bloody good reference tool.
But it is a tool of retail to always consider.
Peter has spent the time to help us all.
As for the hook keeling he informs us of I believe it's on the money.
And when you see he uses keel weights on his hooks just reinforces the need for hook control and the inability for a pusher lure to have positive influence over the total lures performance.

You would have to consider than why does bronzes light gear formula have success..
Well like most trends, more gear in the water helps reinforce your ideas.
I'm not knocking as I run plenty of lures with his hook sets.
I like the needle sharp.
But it has no influence over the pusher lure.
And yet I hear you say his pushers have great success, I know I've had success.
Still talking about this subject helps us all and particularaly me as I continue to broaden my understanding through experience and conversations like these and reading lots to enjoy and enhance my skills and interest.
Just cruising in my now sweetas pimped out Southern 755 HT0!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Catchelot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 7:51pm
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Good info on leader size with bubble trail causing false strikes and scuffed up leaders in fornt of the lures which we have all experienced!Plus the benefits of wire back within the lure.

I learnt this years ago Matt, just saying fundamentals...
 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MATTOO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2019 at 7:16am
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Definetly good info.
The web seminar he puts out is some of his better stuff.

I've been using the very similar set ups for some time.
Though I mix my set ups with stiff rigs.
Most of my leaders are very light weight.
I have found that my connections from line to leader via a snap swivel were hit by skips a lot so height of riggers allows me options in conjunction with the tension from lure drag.
All positive formulas from Peter though, great insights.
Just cruising in my now sweetas pimped out Southern 755 HT0!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Espresso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2019 at 10:21pm
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I used a troll cam last week for the first time. It takes quite some time to set up and get working, app etc, the gopro is controlled from cellphone via wifi along the tether. I'll be doing a lot more in future hopefully - what was happening was eye opening even in the half hr I had, rather excited about it. Should be able to provide some factual viewpoints.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MATTOO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 6:29am
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Looking forward to that.
Just cruising in my now sweetas pimped out Southern 755 HT0!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote the demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 6:54am
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Originally posted by Espresso Espresso wrote:

I used a troll cam last week for the first time. It takes quite some time to set up and get working, app etc, the gopro is controlled from cellphone via wifi along the tether. I'll be doing a lot more in future hopefully - what was happening was eye opening even in the half hr I had, rather excited about it. Should be able to provide some factual viewpoints.


Any photos Espresso
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