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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote the croc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2020 at 12:45am
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Originally posted by shaneg shaneg wrote:

Agree with Muppet.
Especially on conservation of inshore species. I endorsed ITQ as a masters thesis many years ago when we’re bringing it in  Was best practise at time and still works in other places who adopted sametime or earlier. In hindsight is highly dependent on compliance and enforcement  and also accurate present fish numbers and forecasting ( requires constant investment).
 In our case the economic theory and common sense getting too far ahead of science or actually the  interest group ( commercial fishing companies) industry capturing the new system (The property rights (QUOTA) we allocated) and then making heavily influenced systematic poor decisions around resource.
Weird for a country with supposedly has low corruption elsewhere. But the system appears to have been captured by short term profit horizons and commercial interests. Very deplorable and sad. 

Would like to think we could influence yft stocks as well but sadly not. But should do what we can. It seems some quite poor economies in Sth America can manage their fish stocks better which is sad indictment on how par we on in terms of best intentions versus execution. And we are at threat in terms of other eastern based fishing fleets with a plunder mentality.


One of the funny things in the Price of Fish documentary is how they endorse the Faroe Island fisheries management system but somehow forget to mention that it's also a quota management system. 

https://www.faroeseseafood.com/fishery-aquaculture/fishery-legislation-and-management/



The Faroe Islands also trade their quota internationally to allow foreign fishing vessels in to come into their waters and catch their fish.

New Zealand hasn't allowed that level of foreign fishing in our waters for almost 40 years. The foreign crewed vessels that do fish in New Zealand are catching fish on behalf of New Zealand companies, and since 2016 have all been flagged to New Zealand. Everything gets landed in New Zealand. 


https://fiskerforum.com/faroe-islands-strike-2020-quota-agreements/ 

This paper is from 2018 so doesn't cover the recent changes but shows some of the long running issues: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0308597X18302756




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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2020 at 5:55am
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Well that is part of my point croc.

There was no howling or derision because they could not point the finger at recreational for the declines.

You can't do that when there is no one else to blame.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote the croc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2020 at 8:24am
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OK, exactly what fisheries are we talking about then? There are a 20-40 stock reviews each year, so hundreds over the last decade, and plenty of those with a recreational component.

Which of those had howls and threats of going to court? More than one?

I hear these sort of claims all the time and yet no one backs them up with any examples.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2020 at 1:51pm
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Stocks we catch in numbers.

Orange Roughy, Hoki and a range of other comm only species shouldn't be our business.
I don't know why advocate groups bother with them.

Yes there are some who will probably want to talk about them but it takes focus off the ones that matter to us.

Plus it allows the comms some sort of get of jail card when it comes to talking about the shared species.

"Oh look at us we took a cut to Hoki and orange roughy"

So what? Means jack to us
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2020 at 2:19pm
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Originally posted by the croc the croc wrote:

OK, exactly what fisheries are we talking about then? There are a 20-40 stock reviews each year, so hundreds over the last decade, and plenty of those with a recreational component.

Which of those had howls and threats of going to court? More than one?

I hear these sort of claims all the time and yet no one backs them up with any examples.
The last legal challenge over fish stocks would of been the option4 Kahawai challenge??win lose draw. 2009??
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Alan L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2020 at 3:29pm
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Terakihi are under legal challenge currently. Nash is in the dock for failing to follow prescribed protocol to preserve/restore species.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2020 at 4:11pm
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Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

Terakihi are under legal challenge currently. Nash is in the dock for failing to follow prescribed protocol to preserve/restore species.
Alan
Why forest and bird and not Legasea?? does FnB think they have more clout??

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2020 at 5:27pm
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Who knows but they probably do.

But yeah this is obviously a species that matter to us even though we are a fraction of the TACC.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote the croc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2020 at 6:43pm
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Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Stocks we catch in numbers.


Yeah but which ones? It was a specific claim so I'm assuming there are specific examples.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote the croc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2020 at 8:15pm
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Originally posted by pjc pjc wrote:

Originally posted by the croc the croc wrote:

OK, exactly what fisheries are we talking about then? There are a 20-40 stock reviews each year, so hundreds over the last decade, and plenty of those with a recreational component.

Which of those had howls and threats of going to court? More than one?

I hear these sort of claims all the time and yet no one backs them up with any examples.
The last legal challenge over fish stocks would of been the option4 Kahawai challenge??win lose draw. 2009??


The Supreme Court decision was 2009. The original court case was brought by the NZ Big Game Fishing Council and the Recreational Fishing Council. Sanford et al. joined at the Appeal stage in 2008.

The current judicial review for Tarakihi was taken by F&B. Commercial aren't involved.

The last court case I can find where commercial fishing companies took the government to court over a TAC decision was all the way back in 2008. That was Anton’s Trawling, Esperance Fishing, and Orneagan Developments over orange roughy.

I'm interested to know if there are any others.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2020 at 8:31pm
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Croc with all due respect you know exactly what I mean.
That the vast majority of fish landed in NZ are by the commercial sector of species we generally don't go near.
So in my humble opinion that is that I have no interest in having a say about those stocks as I don't know anything about them. Manage away...

But I do care about my local waters and the potential for looking after and improving them from in my experience are highly productive even though you have stated otherwise. So turns out my calculations are much better than yours.




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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote the croc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 12:06am
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Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Croc with all due respect you know exactly what I mean.
That the vast majority of fish landed in NZ are by the commercial sector of species we generally don't go near.
So in my humble opinion that is that I have no interest in having a say about those stocks as I don't know anything about them. Manage away...

But I do care about my local waters and the potential for looking after and improving them from in my experience are highly productive even though you have stated otherwise. So turns out my calculations are much better than yours.


Yeah I get that.

I was wondering what the specific examples were of "Every major shift to protect or change the catch is met with howls of job losses and legal action" "preventing MPI having the ability to manage the public resource effectively."

No one is prepared to give an example so I guess we can add that to the pile of empty claims. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote LBGer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 6:43am
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The quota system has to go. 
It allows monopolies to exist and so big business influences policy in the interest of profit for the few instead of the health of the resource and the benefit of the public. Its a resource that belongs to the public. But it is managed to benefit private companies who pay nothing for the use of the resource. Everyone is talking about legalizing cannabis so we get some taxes off the industry - why don't we get something from the companies who use a public resource for profit? 
It is something like 76% of the quota is held by 5 companies.
In the majority of cases it is not the front line workers (who really have a vested life long interest in the resource) who have the power. It is the Sanfords etc. Proper management of the resource cannot take place while big businesses control/heavily influence politicians. 
Shane Jones- Tarakihi is a prime example. The plan clearly states what must happen but instead there's something in place that will take 20yrs to rebuild. Management cannot happen while business influences outcomes for profit. It really is that simple.
There are extremely similar reasons why a pharmacy owner must be a registered pharmacist. 
Regulations exist to prevent monopolies because health care will suffer because business interests will operate to maximise profits, not make better health outcomes - exactly the same with the quota system. As soon as big businesses have this kind of influence they operate in the interests of profit and not the health of the fishery.
This article on pharmacy regulation spells out some strikingly relevant reasons for why mass ownership by a few must be prevented.
The QMS has to go. 
If the ownership was in the hands of front line local fishing businesses it would create more wealth in the regions, the wealth would be spread around a lot more people. These are the fishers who care about the resource and are more likely to really do things properly. Instead, the front line fishers get squeezed - on Seafood NZ's FB page a while back one of their workers complained about how every year when it came to a pay rise/review they would get told - sorry the cupboard's bare, no room for a pay rise.  
So many lies and corruption - enabled by a flawed system. 
Every proper decision that is just good management is blocked by big business interests because it will hurt their profits. Why do they have that kind of influence? Because they own the majority of quota and have made billions off it. When you have billions to spend any one can be bought, any decision can be influenced, any science and data can be twisted, any industry can be manipulated. You know what I am saying.
The QMS has to go. 
  



A king on the bricks is worth 5 in a boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Alan L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 6:15pm
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Originally posted by pjc pjc wrote:

Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

Terakihi are under legal challenge currently. Nash is in the dock for failing to follow prescribed protocol to preserve/restore species.
Alan
Why forest and bird and not Legasea?? does FnB think they have more clout??

I asked Legasea about that. Their answer was they wanted to direct their resources towards a holistic fishery approach - ie concentrate on the policy matters that affect these things. Rather than challenge individual decisions on a 'whack a mole' basis.
Which does make some sense (to me at least).
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 7:51pm
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Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

Originally posted by pjc pjc wrote:

Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

Terakihi are under legal challenge currently. Nash is in the dock for failing to follow prescribed protocol to preserve/restore species.
Alan
Why forest and bird and not Legasea?? does FnB think they have more clout??

I asked Legasea about that. Their answer was they wanted to direct their resources towards a holistic fishery approach - ie concentrate on the policy matters that affect these things. Rather than challenge individual decisions on a 'whack a mole' basis.
Which does make some sense (to me at least).
Alan
Easier to send endless emails and not take any positive action.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote the croc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 8:52pm
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Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

Originally posted by pjc pjc wrote:

Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

Terakihi are under legal challenge currently. Nash is in the dock for failing to follow prescribed protocol to preserve/restore species.
Alan
Why forest and bird and not Legasea?? does FnB think they have more clout??



I asked Legasea about that. Their answer was they wanted to direct their resources towards a holistic fishery approach - ie concentrate on the policy matters that affect these things. Rather than challenge individual decisions on a 'whack a mole' basis.
Which does make some sense (to me at least).
Alan


That seems like an odd answer when they ran a massive "Time out for Tarakihi" campaign. They've got a slick social presence but I'm not sure what the point of that whole campaign was. They submitted the petition well after advice had already gone to the Minister and he had started making his decisions. The whole thing seemed a bit pointless at that stage.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Alan L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 9:24pm
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Well you would have to agree that the 'whack a mole ' process is somewhat limited in outcomes and massively expensive in terms of any policy issue?
The people who are most advantaged in these sorts of conflicts are those who stand to get some commercial gain. The others (opponents) are basically running sausage sizzles to fund court expenses to maintain some sort of status quo?
Bit similar to mining companies funding consent applications in Conservation land and the public cobbling funding together to maintain the status of the land. On the one hand one side just has large expense to maintain what already exists when the other writes the costs off against the project costs/benefits (ie a projected profit downstream). 
It does seem to me the 'whack a mole' pathway while it may produce some PR and feel-good stuff (and I am not condeming their resolve) is very hard to maintain sustainably. Personally I am pleased a review is happening. I asked Legasea if I would be better funding F&B.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 11:16pm
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Alan L that is what I thinking,fund FnB
Tongue n check I know but is legasea going to save the tuatara? One is land based issues and I guess covers marine birds while the is about protecting/saving fish stock hence the name.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 11:24pm
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Here is the answer to NIWA selling surveyed fish areas

Hi Paul

Thanks for your e mail and apologies for the delayed reply. It arrived the day we were mobilising to leave for the survey, and we have been at sea with limited cell phone coverage since then.

In answer to your question, yes, commercial species of legal size are iced onboard and sold wherever practical, with the net revenue  from the sale paid to the Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI).

Kind regards

Emma

Sent from my iPhone

> On 8/10/2020, at 23:20, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hello joneseg,
>
> paul carnahan ([email protected]) has sent you a message via your contact
> form (https://aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fniwa.co.nz%2Fuser%2F912%2Fcontact&amp;data=02%7C01%7CEmma.Jones%40niwa.co.nz%7Cdf3cbebaea27466b4f1c08d86b73b538%7C41caed736a0c468aba499ff6aafd1c77%7C0%7C1%7C637377492048022912&amp;sdata=4mijZl68gvh68dJZiRnN%2F155fOXkoYStzc%2BXwUtVaFs%3D&amp;reserved=0) at NIWA.
>
> this is a message forwarded from contact form on the NIWA website
>
> Message:
>
> Hi
> Can you confirm that fish caught being of legal in the trawl net will iced
> and sold. A claim that Legasea is making via Facebook while making people
> aware of the survey.
> Thank You
> Paul Carnahan
>
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote the croc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2020 at 11:39pm
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Sounds like there is a bit of shift of focus there then towards promoting Rescuefish. I would imagine they have a big campaign coming over SNA1 and SNA8 when it gets reviewed next year. Although they might keep a bit quieter on SNA8 though because it doesn't show the story they want to tell people regarding the QMS. 

I was interested as I hadn't looked in a while but Forest and Bird have just over $20 million in assets.
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