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Post Options Post Options   Likes (2) Likes(2)   Quote the croc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2020 at 12:13am
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Cameras on boats are a useful tool, but they're not the panacea a lot of people claim them to be. The whole situation has been a political football since 2016, with NGOs on the sidelines yapping away with very little understanding of what they're actually yapping about. 

If you want a solid overview by someone that knows their **** then this is a very informative read: http://www.franciscoblaha.info/blog/2020/9/5/the-back-end-needs-of-cameras-on-board-em

I would like to see cameras on high risk non-fish bycatch fisheries like all set netters and most longliners. 

It's harder on trawlers where individual fish/birds/mammals aren't coming past a single point but get tipped out on deck or straight into the pounds. You need multiple cameras set up on conveyers, discard chutes, sumps etc. That starts getting expensive. One person can maybe watch around 4 cameras properly at once, some vessels will need 8-10 cameras. 

Discards and catch quantification are a whole separate issue. Cameras are pretty bad at dealing with either of these. 

AI will help in the future with some of this stuff but it needs to be trained on NZ specific datasets. That all takes time and is a couple of years way at least. 


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Sanchez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2020 at 9:50am
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That's a great link croc, thanks. Ive been reading about tracking and pattern recognition algorithms to count 'heads' and how it might relate to fishing. Ive got a friend who is writing tracking software for drones that counts 'heads' of endangered animals. We've talked about how this might work for rec fishing and how it might contribute to improving recreational data collection. Numbers and size is all possible and relatively easy to execute via code. This is a typical spring bin. But heads are obscured. Making counting via software next to impossible. So laying them out is required but a hassle. So there is the rub. Would be cool tho. Data would be amazing.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Sanchez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2020 at 10:29am
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My friend has got more interested in this recently to finish off a count and measure app with me based on a single photo. This for rec anglers willing to contribute to improving data. He reckons if the will is there a reasonable commercial system could be developed now. It will take a few tweaks to get the bugs out but if your development road map isn't trying to solve every problem at once you'll have a better system in the long run. This is deep nerd stuff.

Google are also developing some interesting AI tech called Tidal that im sure you are aware of croc.



(edit. the first Tidal Link i provided was behind a Financial Times paywall - this is not )
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2020 at 7:23am
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Lets see where this goes??
Latest news Reccs want ban on scallop dredges, really??
Only those who are NZSFC members or attended AGM as there has been no public submission.
Shark Finning
Was the video recorded in NZ no proof and no action from DOC or MPI
Recue Fish
12k signed yet reported there is 80 to 90k legasea supporters so why has it not reached target or are the majority are those who filled in forms at shows in the hope to win a reel or shirt??
In these economic times no Government will buy back the quota. QMS just needs a few tweaks like land all catch and no tonnage on species but have it on total catch, maybe increase from say a 3t quota to 4t to allow for low value fish?
Banning of inshore trawling yes but I would go a step further and ban areas from longliners.Example is Dec/Jan Feb longlining happens inside of Whangparoa to flat rock Kawau island.with the amount of hooks laid would equal any trawler and then in my area April to September they can operate Clevedon/kawakawa bay which holds sub 30cm snapper.
Need to get Moari onboard who would have the biggest clout under the treaty of Waitangi.Local Marae have stopped cockle gathering at Umuupia beach for a further 2 yrs.At the moment anyone can email MPI with results. I feel MPI met with Advocacy groups just as a token gesture not under any pressure to comply with requests.


We get told we are stakeholders but surely if we pay a fee we then become true stakeholders and would have a real say on inshore fisheries. Yes current law says where a bio mass is low recreational get first choice but how do we know what limits are?


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote the croc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2020 at 7:24pm
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Where is that from pjc?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote the croc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2020 at 7:36pm
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Originally posted by Sanchez Sanchez wrote:

My friend has got more interested in this recently to finish off a count and measure app with me based on a single photo. This for rec anglers willing to contribute to improving data. He reckons if the will is there a reasonable commercial system could be developed now. It will take a few tweaks to get the bugs out but if your development road map isn't trying to solve every problem at once you'll have a better system in the long run. This is deep nerd stuff.

Google are also developing some interesting AI tech called Tidal that im sure you are aware of croc.



(edit. the first Tidal Link i provided was behind a Financial Times paywall - this is not )


Yeah big potential there. Also in the Predator Free NZ space for monitoring pests.

I've used iNaturalist for quite a few years, I put my fish on there too. You can obscure the exact location so you don't have to give away Spot X.

The Australian fishes project collects all fish observations. Over 11,000 observations in NZ. https://www.inaturalist.org/observations?project_id=9358




I'd love to see more reccies involved in citizen science projects like tagging and reporting. There is a huge amount of information that can be gained and shows a willingness for reccies to take ownership of their fisheries.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Tzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2020 at 7:58pm
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Originally posted by pjc pjc wrote:

Lets see where this goes?? Here goes Paul, know doubt though I will be accused of putting the knife at every opportunity I get Wink
Latest news Reccs want ban on scallop dredges, really??
Only those who are NZSFC members or attended AGM as there has been no public submission. This is of course only a policy that affects affiliated members to the NZSFC and even then is not enforceable. Until MPI legislate to make this law its really just business as usual. The policy is a bit hypocritical in that they want to see a ban on all trawling & dredging yet this policy allows for dredging where it is not practical to dive. Sort of wanting to have you cake and eat it as well.
Shark Finning
Was the video recorded in NZ no proof and no action from DOC or MPI More Legasea propaganda B/S without verifying the facts much like the post about the Sanford's trawler. Yet another grainy unclear photo/video, other than showing what does appear to be a GW nothing else is identifiable in the video so could have been taken anywhere in the world. Legasea yet again your credibility in in question.
Recue Fish
12k signed yet reported there is 80 to 90k legasea supporters so why has it not reached target or are the majority are those who filled in forms at shows in the hope to win a reel or shirt?? Precisely where all their support now.
In these economic times no Government will buy back the quota. QMS just needs a few tweaks like land all catch and no tonnage on species but have it on total catch, maybe increase from say a 3t quota to 4t to allow for low value fish?
Banning of inshore trawling yes but I would go a step further and ban areas from longliners.Example is Dec/Jan Feb longlining happens inside of Whangparoa to flat rock Kawau island.with the amount of hooks laid would equal any trawler and then in my area April to September they can operate Clevedon/kawakawa bay which holds sub 30cm snapper. Cant see the QMS being scrapped in favour of Rescue Fish or any other system, granted there maybe some flaws and perhaps 30 years on some areas could do with some tweaking, like around deemed values. Dont agree with banning trawling in the inshore fishery as this would only drive cost of fish up.
Need to get Moari onboard who would have the biggest clout under the treaty of Waitangi.Local Marae have stopped cockle gathering at Umuupia beach for a further 2 yrs. Yet at present the customary permit system is being abused. Maori wont agree to have the QMS scrapped either being one of the biggest stakeholders. At the moment anyone can email MPI with results. I feel MPI met with Advocacy groups just as a token gesture not under any pressure to comply with requests. Maybe if there was only one advocacy group to represent recreational then maybe MPI may have a different approach to them because they see recreational as disjointed.
We get told we are stakeholders but surely if we pay a fee we then become true stakeholders and would have a real say on inshore fisheries. While I wouldn't like to pay a fishing licence I would be open to the idea if monies raised went to a funding body that looked after recreational & contributed to recreational being involved with fisheries research rather than relying on MPI, NIWA for information but we all know monies would end up in a consolidated fund for governments to waste.
Yes current law says where a bio mass is low recreational get first choice but how do we know what limits are?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Tzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2020 at 8:00pm
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Originally posted by the croc the croc wrote:

Where is that from pjc?


Recent face book posts by Legasea & New Zealand Sports Fishing Council
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote the croc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2020 at 8:36pm
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Good move on starting the convo around recreational dredging. I'd like to see NZ move to a dive only fishery, recreational and commercial.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (2) Likes(2)   Quote letsgetem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2020 at 10:35am
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Couple of points -

I was disappointed in the Rescue Fish initiative by Legasea. Because, basically I see nothing fundamentally wrong with Quota Management System, except for some details that should be changed. The main thing that I see wrong, is that MPI do not always manage the Quotas to avoid serious depletion. If they did their job properly, and slashed some commercial (and/or recreational) quota, this could be overcome. 

  I am right in favour of compulsory fee paying by recreational fishers. As long as it is to a body that has recreational fishing objectives only. Based on the Fish and Game model for fresh-water fisheries.
I think this is a KEY development that would very much improve how recreational fishing interacts with government. It would be far stronger than Legasea. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2020 at 10:41am
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Agree with that
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote the croc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2020 at 12:05am
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Originally posted by letsgetem letsgetem wrote:

Couple of points -

I was disappointed in the Rescue Fish initiative by Legasea. Because, basically I see nothing fundamentally wrong with Quota Management System, except for some details that should be changed. The main thing that I see wrong, is that MPI do not always manage the Quotas to avoid serious depletion. If they did their job properly, and slashed some commercial (and/or recreational) quota, this could be overcome. 

  I am right in favour of compulsory fee paying by recreational fishers. As long as it is to a body that has recreational fishing objectives only. Based on the Fish and Game model for fresh-water fisheries.
I think this is a KEY development that would very much improve how recreational fishing interacts with government. It would be far stronger than Legasea. 


I'll just point out that Minister's make the decisions on where to set catch limits. MPI provide advice based on submissions but that isn't always listened to. Where MPI is culpable is deciding which species get reviewed. Hapuka/bass especially and other low information stocks have been managed poorly.

Where the QMS has good information and when Minister's make good decisions it functions well.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote marlinmarty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2020 at 1:15am
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In case you mis-read rescue fish.
Every major shift to protect or change the catch is met with howls of job losses and legal action.
The underlying problem in the QMS is property rights or quota owners.
This prevent MPI having the ability to manage the public resource effectively.
A change here would see substantial change and effective management.
Quota should be leased annually off the owner and thats the public of NZ.via the govt.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote the croc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2020 at 8:02am
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The trouble with that kind of argument is it doesn't stack up when you look into it.

Hoki and pāua especially have seen voluntary shelving from commercial over recent years. No howling there.

There have also been significant cuts made by Ministers to Tarakihi, CRA2, hoki and orange roughy as well as many other fisheries over the last decade or so.

It's an information hungry system and some decisions have been made far too slowly.

The constant need to demonise commercial fishing doesn't actually help recreational fishers.

The QMS isn't perfect and there are lots of things that can be done better. There are some decent ideas in Rescuefish, but they're wrapped up in a package that will never go anywhere.

I think one of the reasons Rescuefish has failed to get much traction is that most fishers outside of Auckland/BOP have a pretty good fishing experience. Taranaki/Tasman/Kāpiti/Wellington/Most of the South Island. They get told all this doom and gloom and then go out and have decent fishing so it's hard to connect the two.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2020 at 8:48pm
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To be frank Croc most of the fish species you list as having comm cuts have nothing to do with recs.
Hoki, orange roughy? How much do we catch and to be frank recs barely scratch the terakihi. Think your TACC numbers on them proved that.
So why bother even quoting that info?

I am pretty sure the positive fisheries out of the Gulf and BOP are not thriving on Hoki.

I am not demonizing comms just pointing out a frank fact. Detangling the recs from numbers that don't involve us.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Reel Deal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2020 at 9:20pm
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Legasea has posted 
The gods do not subtract from the allotted span of men's lives the hours spent on fishing - Assyrian Proverb
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Reel Deal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2020 at 9:22pm
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ok take two...


The gods do not subtract from the allotted span of men's lives the hours spent on fishing - Assyrian Proverb
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote shaneg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2020 at 9:23pm
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Agree with Muppet.
Especially on conservation of inshore species. I endorsed ITQ as a masters thesis many years ago when we’re bringing it in  Was best practise at time and still works in other places who adopted sametime or earlier. In hindsight is highly dependent on compliance and enforcement  and also accurate present fish numbers and forecasting ( requires constant investment).
 In our case the economic theory and common sense getting too far ahead of science or actually the  interest group ( commercial fishing companies) industry capturing the new system (The property rights (QUOTA) we allocated) and then making heavily influenced systematic poor decisions around resource.
Weird for a country with supposedly has low corruption elsewhere. But the system appears to have been captured by short term profit horizons and commercial interests. Very deplorable and sad. 

Would like to think we could influence yft stocks as well but sadly not. But should do what we can. It seems some quite poor economies in Sth America can manage their fish stocks better which is sad indictment on how par we on in terms of best intentions versus execution. And we are at threat in terms of other eastern based fishing fleets with a plunder mentality.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote shaneg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2020 at 9:52pm
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Also other post previous to mine, David Seymour (Act) has said in public believes in cameras on boats i.e. compliance and enforcement. Don’t believe all that good intention policy above. Good policy and systems need to be effective.
(This is a message authorised by a kayak fisher and game fisherman living in the east coast bays... not necessarily a political message).

Shame about the whale that got attacked dead stuck in a stormwater pipe (or wharf) ,  and then attacked by a big model seven gill shark off Hobsonville  today (see Facebook) ... Sharks  will be sharks I guess, hard to change their inherent natural behaviours ... much like commercial fishing companies.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote the croc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2020 at 12:14am
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Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

To be frank Croc most of the fish species you list as having comm cuts have nothing to do with recs.
Hoki, orange roughy? How much do we catch and to be frank recs barely scratch the terakihi. Think your TACC numbers on them proved that.
So why bother even quoting that info?

I am pretty sure the positive fisheries out of the Gulf and BOP are not thriving on Hoki.

I am not demonizing comms just pointing out a frank fact. Detangling the recs from numbers that don't involve us.




"Every major shift to protect or change the catch is met with howls of job losses and legal action."

I was pointing out that this claim is incorrect. That is all. 


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