Ledger Rigs.

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    Posted: 08 Dec 2021 at 9:23am
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The other day I tied up a few ledger rigs for a m8..
I tie on a jig.




I dont cut between bottom sinker loop and top loop so when rolled onto a old spool, just pick up small loop, clip onto the mainline, unwind (1st trace already has hooks) then snip between the bottom of the sinker loop and before next mainline loop..

Anyway they messed it up..
So then later showed them how it works, again... was a good idea

 I pull up the dropper loops so  tidy, but not all the way and things then got interesting..
Was told not having pulled full tight, when fish on they would pull up , create heat and fail... like 30 /50m down under the water?
As against, simply bit of spit ?

As many know , I use my machine lath to test knots, and how different methods of tieing can effect the final knot.
 E.G. braid knots, FG type.. if one doesnt pull up every turn tight as you go, the integrity of the know suffers , often baddy.
Other mono/ fluro knots like uni, clinch, rapla, lefty.. these all need to be pulled up and loaded when tied.

The Dropper, doesnt. If one pulls up, to get the knot to form up, but still quite 'loose'  It takes a lot more abuse, both constant load and being jerked, and combination of these ... When one watches on the testing, Thinking about a good sized fish or shark.. The initial weight / load of the fish pulls the knot up a little, then it knows its hooked and start to get..excited, jump around... the knot not being fully pulled up takes these excessive loads by pulling up more, like a shock absorber .. sorta.
 From there it tends to be constant bend in rod/ load, knot is near pulled up, and further jumping around of the fish, eventually pulls it up.

Had been doing this for decades, as thats what did when fishing with the old man. It is interesting to actually mess with knots, and how they get tied and the lathe, scales etc then actually see what is and is not..rather than hear say..

 Another thing is distance of hooks and length of the loop.. Do not use supple trace for ledgers... Then you can put the hooks and the sinker loop at a distance  so when no bait on land the hooks will just hook each other...
Yep a so called big no no.
In practice, put a bit bait on , and because of the stiffer trace line, they dont actually ever hook together.
 And in practice you will find even the supple trace doesnt either.
 Ledgers made of supple trace, also make good off the cuff stray lines... just change the sinker from bottom loop to the mainline clip and tidy baits so doesnt spin up in current.

Side note:
Anyone, and I know here couple did, grow up in Glen Innes from the start of the 60s? In Mayfair Pl there was Barber shop, couple doors up from XYZ Fruit and Veggie (and still is) . In the front window had rods, fishing gear, etc etc. Back then other than Wisemans (who rems those shops) not many places sold fishing gear... Any way that where I grew up, as it was owned and run by my parents.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2021 at 10:07am
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Cut to the chase Steps, I was part of that Big smile
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Yes grew up there and window shopped at Wisemans. I have to say I was impressed that you've never had a trace come together like you describe nor had a knot fail in 50 years. Clearly you are more skilled than I. Mind you I did take a 10 year break from fishing Wink

I'm thinking my constructive criticism has upset you for you to post this here.
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Looks like a good system. As a non-bait fisherman, I wonder whether you use mono or fluoro to tie these rigs and what breaking strain? Cheers. 
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The line looks a little on the heavy side
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Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:

The line looks a little on the heavy side

Big smile
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Originally posted by MB MB wrote:

Looks like a good system. As a non-bait fisherman, I wonder whether you use mono or fluoro to tie these rigs and what breaking strain? Cheers. 

I use 60 or 80lb mono for deep water snapper fishing
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote John_Ra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2021 at 11:06am
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Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:

The line looks a little on the heavy side

Funny Guy......maybe stick to posting in Catch of The Day....Beer

I use a T knot, 60lb fluoro, when on that coast...  which is not often, rare in fact

on a side note, notice any if any difference between Gammy & BKK hooks catch wise? hook up rate etc..

Have been a Long standing user of the 8/0 octo circles for over 10yrs..
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I've used both John and the Gamakatsu hooks use a finer wire so theoretically they will set easier. Personally neither hooks have given me any problems like that but have had the Gamakatsu hooks break on a double hook up when 2 fish are on the same rig.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2021 at 11:26am
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Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

I use 60 or 80lb mono for deep water snapper fishing

Thanks. In other areas of the sport, the aim is often to use line as light as possible to get more bites. Doesn't seem to apply to bait fishing. The penny dropped for me when I saw people loading up rigs with beads and lumo tubing to make their rigs MORE visible LOL

Thoughts?
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Cut to the chase Steps, I was part of that Big smile

 Smudge.. Im not into bagging.. so no chase.

I'm thinking my constructive criticism has upset you for you to post this here.

Didnt expect that comment at all... unlike most I listen, and then if havnt before, find out stuff myself  by actually doing..In this case had done so many yrs ago.
 You made few comments at the time that also raised some interesting questions..
 You have really got the wrong end of the stick here...

I was impressed that you've never had a trace come together like you describe nor had a knot fail in 50 years.

 Thats seems a little sacastic Smudge??
Yes had hooks connect up, when experimenting just how close I could tie, length loop etc... hence the jig, get it right  everytime without the guess work..

 And knots not fail. never said that " in a very long time" is more accurate... hence yrs of testing , methods of tieing, types trace etc.
 I did mention did bit rock climbing back in the day, before all the fancy new gear my sons now use building huge communication towers.. so knots not failing , like edges on knifes not go blunt is a sort of fetish.

 And GI  well have talked about growing up in such an environment.. and in resent post by some else they question without basis just about everything I post..
And thanks very clarifying the background

 Thats the chase m8..

 'Frad you got the wrong end of the stick...taken the wrong way.. You raised questions last week and got me thinking as on does while making up new traces yesterday for heading out over the bar tomorrow.

I wonder whether you use mono or fluoro to tie these rigs and what breaking strain? Cheers.

 I like fluoro, not for any good reason must admit, its sorta like the Ford/ Chev/Dodge thing
I have 30lb  diwa J8 coloured braid,well have it on all rods.. a cost thing buy in bulk.
Stray lines east and harbour coast are 20 or 25lb.. gets around snags and stuff.  Again about affordable and keeping stock down..
Ledgers off the west coast, messed with several breaking stains from 30 to 120lb .. settled on the stiffer (advised by Chad at H&F) 80lb .. also tend to lay better if use as a stray along the bottom.

The line looks a little on the heavy side  

Nah m8 , thats west coast fishing Wink
Seriously Was showing someone ages ago, then later they wanted a pic so set up with the rope so easy to see.

One thing that stands out when testing knots . types.. I used to get a lot failed knots stray lining  east coast... we never anchor over there when fishing .
There are several whipping type knots  where turns around the main line then loops back (like a whipping ) thru the main line, pulled up under the turns.
All the load goes on the mainline which is at 90 deg across the tag end.. get a good fish, a few heavy headshakes and either the mainline cuts thru the tag or the tag will cur thru the main line.
Like this


The bow line in roping is obsolete.. any trucker (part of truckers hitch) or climber  the alpine is the go to. Which one would think , ok ledger rig right?
The droper loop is sorta along the lines of the smaller alpine...except put the alpine as a ledger you end up loading the mono/ fluoro 90 deg in the knot and it fails...
 Put a dropper in a climbing rope and you will never get it undone..

 Anyway just thought some of this would be interesting, or may even explain a few mystery knot fails in the past
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2021 at 11:46am
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The penny dropped for me when I saw people loading up rigs with beads and lumo tubing to make their rigs MORE visible LOL

 
Yep.. played with that and use.. lumo tube above the hook and small plastic lure certainly improves hook ups.. with bait.
 Oh and look in the cheap bins at H&F for heavy lures.. use them for the dropper sinker Wink. A 6 oz sinker is about $4.. bargain bin lure get down to $6 or $7

Also done stuff like inject glow in the dark paint into soft baits.. yep worked very well... It leaves a strip of dots the length of the SB
There is a very old thread on favourite sbs .. Listed and when had the list at the shop near all where "glow"..
So.. got some high end glow in the dark paint.. painted sinkers, jigs, lures, the  front and back door key holes, the trailer hitch and ball, strip on the steps to the decks, another the cnr of the fence thats in a blind spot..
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2021 at 12:27pm
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Damn posts coming in fast

on a side note, notice any if any difference between Gammy & BKK hooks catch wise? hook up rate etc..

 BKK strill using them up.. defiantly west coast hooks, dont expect too many smaller fish as when the bite is not on, or shy, tend to drop due to the heavy gauge. The lumos , in my opinion a gimmik.
Gammy and owner are my got to. lighter gauge and set far easier.. but if have a good fish on, dont skull drag when have heavy gear..but can still keep that fish with head up coming up and not go around others lines.

 In saying that.. I wonder just how much load a gammy hook will take before bending or breaking?
 There we go.. something else may look at later?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2021 at 12:38pm
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Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:

 You have really got the wrong end of the stick here...

I hope so

Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:



I was impressed that you've never had a trace come together like you describe nor had a knot fail in 50 years.

 Thats seems a little sacastic Smudge??


It was a little


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote John_Ra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2021 at 1:02pm
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 In saying that.. I wonder just how much load a gammy hook will take before bending or breaking?
 There we go.. something else may look at later?
[/QUOTE]

I hooked into 30kg Bass, out off Curvier.
fishing 220m water so was on 80lb braid, using 8/0 gammy (not ideal) but were catching good size spotted gurnard so downsized the hook gauge, it put up a good scrap, pulled hard. Forgot to drop drag a little cause of hook size, but in the heat of the mo' it was on LOL

Gear & hook handled it quite well.... another reason why I still use them.. am trialling Mutsu,KLT & Trokar off the beach at the moment, surfcast a lot now....
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2021 at 1:15pm
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I guess it depends how they are comnnected to the fish that determines where they will break. Snapper are likely to be able to crush the hooks, whereas a puka is probably more likely to straighten it. I've only had a couple of gammies break on me and only on 2 hook droppers. I only use 2 or 3 kilos of drag so that explains to me why it has only happened when 2 hooks are connected to 60lb trace. Of course the snapper could be crushing the hooks too.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2021 at 1:15pm
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What drag settingsare you using on that 30lb braid Steps?
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Originally posted by MB MB wrote:

Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

I use 60 or 80lb mono for deep water snapper fishing

Thanks. In other areas of the sport, the aim is often to use line as light as possible to get more bites. Doesn't seem to apply to bait fishing. The penny dropped for me when I saw people loading up rigs with beads and lumo tubing to make their rigs MORE visible LOL

Thoughts?

I use light gear 20lb trace or less for gurnard. The problem is if a snapper swallows the 4/0 hook they bite right through that trace. But yeah light gear seems to help with our gurnard catch but the BM flasher rigs work pretty well too and they must be tied on 60lb.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote kitno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2021 at 1:36pm
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Funny Guy......maybe stick to posting in Catch of The Day....

Nah, given up on that.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Alan L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2021 at 1:48pm
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I am a big fan of the BKK hooks.
Steps - one thing you can do to test the hooks - as you go down in diameter.
Put the hook around something like your vice handle. Hook your strain gauge scales (the spring ones - like Shimano), to some mono on the hook and pull. Note where the hook starts to deform. You can see that point clearly. Thats a good indication where you should not go past for drag (IMHO). See how that number compares to your line weight and the drag you usually use. Then you can see when you have gone too light with the hook.
I lost a few gamefish (eg marlin) very early on in game fishing - with broken mainlines. Yes - lots of line in water - maybe 500m at one point. But it broke at the terminal knot.
So, like you, I set about testing the knots - all the knot range used on gamelines - plaited doubles, improved clinch etc. I spent days on it - with my shimano scales on the bench and a tie down ratchet on the other end. The terminal knot was connected to a large swivel which was connected to my bench vice. I pulled the line on the ratchet til it broke - somewhere.
Always broke at the knot. I did them in triplicate - measuring the breakage strain on the scales - it has a marker tab.
It was shocking the numbers for some knots. Maybe 60-70% of the break strain of the line. When you are running 50% drag at times, thats knot ( :-)) good.
I also noticed if I went down in line strength (lighter mono), the %ges got higher.
So a lot of the %ges quoted for various knots - eg 90% really only apply to light lines - around 20lb or maybe less. When you go up to 80lb(which I use for GF), the %ges drop.
I finally settled on a terminal system that is my own invention basically - as a result of all the testing. It has yet to fail me and gave me the best % numbers. And does not involve a knot - other than a catspaw at the swivel. The catspaw came out best. But the knot at the plaited double was always a weak link.
Regards
Alan
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