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Larger 2/4 stroke pros and Cons

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote neil_cb125t Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2019 at 6:07pm
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Cheers for all the replies - looks like the ideal is a modern 4 stroke if your boat shopping. Interesting that the most popular motors that were fitted in the boats I’m looking at are 115/130/175 Yamahas. They sound bomb proof but fuel heavy by the standards these days.

I do think a smaller lighter boat 5-5.5m could run fine on a carbed 90hp smoker cheap enough. Just think I want a touch bigger than that.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote rowboat bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2019 at 8:38pm
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I recently repowered my 5.2m Marlborough ( glass boat ) with a Merc 115hp proXS 4stroke  after my old bullet proof yammy 115 2 stroke blew up.  Currently averaging 10L per hour, quiet, no smoke , heaps of grunt,(  it'd be fine on a 6m boat ) Servicing is cheap on the Mercs and so easy that you can do it yourself after warranty period. Go for a boat with a 4 stroke, even if more hours on it than a two stroke or have to pay more etc. I reckon the 2 strokes will really start falling away in resale value shortly.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2019 at 8:03am
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I do think a smaller lighter boat 5-5.5m could run fine on a carbed 90hp


I recently repowered my 5.2m Marlborough ( glass boat ) with a Merc 115hp proXS 4stroke  after my old bullet proof yammy 115 2 stroke

115 on that boat would be nicely powered... a 115 on a 5.5m cabin glass boat 3 guys min powered..
90 on a 5+ underpowered.

 under powered means in chop you have to work the throttle, drop on and off the plain, and use heaps of fuel, and continuously crash the bow down getting back up on the plane.
 Most likely will require a permatrim, something brands dont make as an add on (wonder why?).. and voids any warrantee etc.

 Well powered means set the throttle , cruise around 20/22 mph use stuff all fuel.. oily rag, and comfortable.

 4.8m to around 6 /6.5m, general use normal load, flat water,  max rpms mid rpm range gives a WoT speed around 42 mpg .. thu will very rarely use it... just like a tractor, truck, aeroplane , the missus shopping basket car, doesnt use top speed.. its just an unfortunate result of handling cruise conditions well.
Min or underpower, no matter what you do with the prop , or permatrim , will not fix or 'patch' the issue.

 "think" doesnt work.. 2 things do.. do the maths and 2, then find the maths matches hit in miss try this try that
 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote neil_cb125t Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2019 at 1:02pm
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Good good - All good learning points - Go bigger regardless of brand is what im hearing, and prop it correctly.

Sounds like most of the injected 2 strokes keep their own against a 4. I like the simplicity of a smoker for servicing.

The boat I was keen on is under offer so im back on the hunt. My ideal is a Seaforce600 with a 4 or injected stroker.....if anyone knows of one sitting in a shed Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muzzfishing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2019 at 2:22pm
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When it comes time to sell your pride and joy, remember like you prospective buyers will be asking the same questions. The 4 stroke is going to win over 2 strokes are going to get harder to sell. When I upgraded my 2 stroke 90 Yamaha to a 4 stroke, one Yamaha dealer was not keen on trading it as everyone wanted a 4 stroke.      And the 2 stroke would be sitting with the other ones he already had.                          Petrol is never going to get cheaper.
    A Good Skipper Keeps the water on the outside of the boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote neil_cb125t Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2019 at 2:59pm
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Originally posted by Muzzfishing Muzzfishing wrote:

When it comes time to sell your pride and joy, remember like you prospective buyers will be asking the same questions. The 4 stroke is going to win over 2 strokes are going to get harder to sell. When I upgraded my 2 stroke 90 Yamaha to a 4 stroke, one Yamaha dealer was not keen on trading it as everyone wanted a 4 stroke.      And the 2 stroke would be sitting with the other ones he already had.                          Petrol is never going to get cheaper.

Yeah for sure - You can see how many boats stay for sale with low hour 2 strokes on them.    my current boat is a wee 14.6v sea nymph - entry level boat with 86 Jonny 70hp on it.....literally cant use a 20litre tote if i tried! Never have used my spare in 3 years..... But she aint no family sea boat.......So bigger boat comes with bigger responsibility aka HP required hahahhhaa

Nymph will go cheaply. But thats ok
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote FizFisho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2019 at 3:12pm
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As per my biodegradibility post. 2 smokes non direct injection are no for sale in Aus anymore, I suspect that might soon be the case in NZ.

For a large boat, that you intend to keep, 4 smokes or 2 direct inj are the only way to go. Yes more cost, yes more weight. What you get from 2 smokes is hole shot. If they do ban 2 smoke NEW sales then its hard to say whether they will hold value or lose faster than normal. Arguments to both, there will always be someone who wants a lighter engine faster on the hole shot.

Fuel wise, just use the mercury fuel calculator to give you an idea.

Its signficant. Especially long term. They also increase your fuel tanks Range.

Good on you for considering a glass boat, made a thread about how Aussies MOSTLY still go toward Glass for bigger boats but NZ is still stuck on the bang bang Ally Pontoon Era, yet have come a long way very plate aluminium.

This is where you maybe able to save some money. Id rather you had a glass boat.

BUT, I know Extreme use thick plate ally, they also offer cork under foot which is warm in winter cool in summer, but more to point reduces noise dramatically, their Cabins are lined to reduce noise etc, Pilot/Wheel houses encloses use a special method to reduce noise. In general they are very aware of the old noisey ally boats. 

MUCH lighter to tow, MUCH less HP needed (huge cost saving) and near Glass experience as they use a very fine entry with reverse chines flattering out to like the old gull type rear point of view of the hull. They also have a flooding keel like Surtees, which does work to push the boat down in the water so very stable at rest and if the Sea gets up leave the water in for a very Glass like feel. Maybe take one for a test drive? Or PM Grant (Espresso) as he sometimes Skippers an 8.5m walkaround cabin and see what he thinks of it vs a Glass boat.

Now Im a huge glass boat fan. Which haines were you considering?
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My new Merc 115 four stroke is exactly the same weight as my old 115 Yammy 2moke with way more power including holeshot. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote FizFisho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2019 at 3:34pm
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Shame this is in SI, appropriate 175hp engine

Id never ever go passed a Haines Sportsfisher, probably the most iconic glass boat ever made. Within your price range. There is another but its got a 2 smoke on it.

https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/motorboats/auction-2313908937.htm?rsqid=5bf76942c9794f91993afc51f7729f14-002

Another tip, like on the Seaforce Open cabins. You do not get the overnight enclosed cabin. Also measure the length of the bunks to make sure you have head room. This annoys me with some boats with such cabins and a foot rest, or head whacker if you will.

The first choice definitely looked in good nick.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote neil_cb125t Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2019 at 3:39pm
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Originally posted by FizFisho FizFisho wrote:

As per my biodegradibility post. 2 smokes non direct injection are no for sale in Aus anymore, I suspect that might soon be the case in NZ.

For a large boat, that you intend to keep, 4 smokes or 2 direct inj are the only way to go. Yes more cost, yes more weight. What you get from 2 smokes is hole shot. If they do ban 2 smoke NEW sales then its hard to say whether they will hold value or lose faster than normal. Arguments to both, there will always be someone who wants a lighter engine faster on the hole shot.

Fuel wise, just use the mercury fuel calculator to give you an idea.

Its signficant. Especially long term. They also increase your fuel tanks Range.

Good on you for considering a glass boat, made a thread about how Aussies MOSTLY still go toward Glass for bigger boats but NZ is still stuck on the bang bang Ally Pontoon Era, yet have come a long way very plate aluminium.

This is where you maybe able to save some money. Id rather you had a glass boat.

BUT, I know Extreme use thick plate ally, they also offer cork under foot which is warm in winter cool in summer, but more to point reduces noise dramatically, their Cabins are lined to reduce noise etc, Pilot/Wheel houses encloses use a special method to reduce noise. In general they are very aware of the old noisey ally boats. 

MUCH lighter to tow, MUCH less HP needed (huge cost saving) and near Glass experience as they use a very fine entry with reverse chines flattering out to like the old gull type rear point of view of the hull. They also have a flooding keel like Surtees, which does work to push the boat down in the water so very stable at rest and if the Sea gets up leave the water in for a very Glass like feel. Maybe take one for a test drive? Or PM Grant (Espresso) as he sometimes Skippers an 8.5m walkaround cabin and see what he thinks of it vs a Glass boat.

Now Im a huge glass boat fan. Which haines were you considering?

All good points there - I didnt know about the Merc fuel calc, ill have a look!

 I dont mind my 2 strokes - but I have a specky Direct injected daily driving car....granted its a specialised car (5.2....V10)......but the issues I have with its "new age performance" have cost heaps....and requires constant maintance.... and servicing injectors and cleaning inlet manifolds.....pain in the ass!

I like extreme and surtees - some cool additions in the mix with teh flooding keel etc. Would consider a 5.5 surtees.....again most have old school styled 2 trokes or etects....im weary of etecs....seems most now are too.

Just started a post looking for a Seaforce 600 - I missed one FS in taupo (its awaiting pickup) they seem to tick ill my boxes....

I have considered a MAC600 - I have only seen one but it was beat to sh*t wont say which one it was... They seem to not hold their value either. Most have 4s on them thou.......
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote FizFisho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2019 at 4:07pm
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Originally posted by neil_cb125t neil_cb125t wrote:

Would consider a 5.5 surtees.....again most have old school styled 2 trokes or etects....im weary of etecs....seems most now are too.

Surtees are good, but Extreme, Southern, Whitepointer are all more hardcore IMO.

Surtees started it all. Known as Barcrusher in aus. But those other plate ally guys do amazing welding and build VERY solid boats. I personally wouldnt hesitate a 6m Extreme over a Surtees.

What you want in Extreme is the Game King model, like this, but this one is brand new. There are sports fishers but they are not hard tops. 

https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/motorboats/auction-2312350787.htm?rsqid=feca06f8ee594d2f9a6cca00d77eef22-009

This is well under budget, possibly due to engine hours. Not sure what the engine trade in is worth to get a Honda. Has a few scuffs, to be expected for its age. Might not be for you though. But if a newer one comes up for under your $35k, check it out fast as they dont stick around long.

https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/motorboats/auction-2267686083.htm?rsqid=463593b18d684083b4a1c407c0d70354-005

There is a mint sportfisher for $43k, but stick to your budget, its 5.7m.

6m glass is definitely more comfortable providing it has a fine entry to big deadrise.

Wow the Honda's definitely seem worth the fuel savings, almost half the 2s DI Merc

https://www.boat-fuel-economy.com/outboard-fuel-consumption-liters

A Haines SF600 or SF650 with a Honda on the back for $35k, that would be SWEET !
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote FizFisho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2019 at 4:10pm
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Also consider Bayliner Trophy and dont right off the surtees, still a great ally at a good price. The Workmate 5.5 is probably not what you are after but a lot in your price range. 

Know what you want and set up an alert for new boats in your size and price bracket (make sure not to set at less than $25k or you will get older boats) and if you find what you want, which sounds like an overnighter capable of inshore/offshore on great days then the 6m Haines would be a treat but I also like your first choice. Just a bit colder overnighting etc. I think OB still does outboard surveying type of thing, Outboard tech mobile, just checks it over from what one can do. In Aus there are a lot of mobile boat surveyors who are a bit more formal with everything they check being a tick or having a comment. OB is still worth the money.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote neil_cb125t Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2019 at 7:16pm
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Cheers for the links people! 

I have started a new WTD threadin the trade section for a suitable stead. throw any suitable links up there - Dont need a full overnight ability, need a decent space for throwing rods out! I like extreme also but decent ali stuff seems to be super pricey and you tend to get no comforts - we wont be chasing game fish so would rather more comfort etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Big -Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2019 at 8:21pm
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Some of the alloy boats are renown for being a bit power hungry, I think mainly from lack of planing stakes that provide lift, and alloy has a greater surface resistance, particularly when it is aged and oxidised.
I moved a motor from an 1000th on the water alloy boat, to a 2000kg medium vee glass boat, and didn't have to re prop..same performance and economy despite twice the weight.
you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...
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