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Larger 2/4 stroke pros and Cons

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote neil_cb125t Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Larger 2/4 stroke pros and Cons
    Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 11:59am
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So Im looking at moving up from my little 14.6v to a mid to late 5m+ Glass boat. Looking at Seaforce 600 and or haines/buccaneer/billfishers. 

There seems to be a large range of them out there all sporting different donks. My wish is trouble free motoring firstly, with low maint costs. 

My question is how BAD are the 115/130 or even 150hp Yammy 2 strokes on fuel pushing this type of boat. They sound bomb proof but thirsty. They also seem to be the motor of choice for this style/size of glass boat.

Some have a 115/140/150 4 strokes - I like the idea of the frugal running costs but here yearly servicing is not cheap.

im looking at a low hours (no more than 200hours really??), modern boat to be a long term purchase circa 10-15 years of boating. Main use will be inshore bottom fishing and then lake playing for family (thats the idea for the glass boat, more family friendly)

It looks like the saving in fuel you make are outweighed by servicing on 4s to me.

I have a mid 80s 70hp Johnny on the 14.6 and its cheaper than cheap to run (never use 20litres per trip if i tried) , with yearly servicing being done by me cheap as chips.......

Anyone insight would be awesome

neil
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote johnybegood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 12:39pm
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Hey Neil. Realise you are looking at a glass boat but I have had one of those engines before on my tinny...

6m Fyran which we repowered with a 115hp yamaha SWS 2 stroke. This thing averaged 30-34lph at cruise which was 21 knots (around 40km/hr). Found it far too thirsty to the point we didn't really want to use it.

Have recently put a second hand four stroke on the back. Yet to put it in the water but the sea test results were promising so fingers crossed its cut it down to around 20lph (or possibly less).

You mention lower servicing costs. We still found the 2 stroke servicing costs to be pretty high, plus add on the cost of the oil required and it was no different to the four stroke.

End of the day, our biggest reasons for changing was noise, ease of starting (for the mrs) and (hopefully) a nicer day on the water, which in turn increases it being used.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Bounty Hunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 12:46pm
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the difference between a 4stroke motor and 2stroke carby is night and day - and i suspect that once anyone has had the newer style of outboard they would 'never go back' almost regardless of cost.

whilst the older style motors appear to be cheap to purchase and the higher fuelling costs might be mitigated by little usage - the 2stroke motors are now so dated that you may end up with a motor - esp. so in the 6cyl models - that is almost unsaleable.

my question - would you buy a car on carbs these days?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote purple5ive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 2:06pm
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On a big motor like that id definitely go a 4 stroke.

 

2 strokes are easy to service at home if you know what to do

2 strokes are noisier, and smokier than a 4 stroke

2 stroke will use more fuel

2 stroke can be a pita to start on cold days

Take into account the 2 stroke oil costs involved as well

 

4 strokes are extremely quiet

4 strokes are great on fuel

4 strokes are costly to service

4 strokes will start instantly

 

Also consider a 2 stroke direct injection models like optimax, tohatsu TLDI, etecs etc.. if your going into the 2 stroke market

 

If you troll a lot, and travel long distances, then a 4 stroke is a no brainer..

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote RaggedJoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 3:48pm
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I've got 150hp 4 st on my Buccaneer 565. Annual service by the dealer $800 ish, which bloody hurts. 5 years old. starts first time very time.   2 pob, usual fishing load, Around 20l/hr at around 25 knts on flat water. Careful trim etc can get this to 18/19 l/hr.

I simply love the extra horses above the standard issue 115 they all seem to come with, runs at low revs, can pull a skier when required, with my son and 6 of his mates on board, never feel its working hard.


After the time I spent on sailing club 2 st powered ribs, I would never go back. Noisy, smelly, fussy to start. That said they were older motors and I believe the newer 2 st are much better. My mate with an Opimax swears by his.


My advice for what its worth, get the extra horses if you can possibly afford them
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muzzfishing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 4:33pm
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Four stroke 115 4000 Rpm uses 14lts hr 44km hr on a 5.5 Surtees quiet and economical. I like to go trolling for Gamefish, Waihau bay etc.   Had a 90hp 2 stroke it did not like trolling used to drop d0wn to 2 cylinders after about 4hrs lovely when your miles off the coast.   New technology is so much nicer. A bit dearer to service but worth a few extra dollars to be able to get out and go game fishing on the cheap. Uses 6lts /hr trolling 7-8 knots.  Mates 135 Opti Merc uses 10lts hr + expensive oil on a 565 Buccaneer.  Is noiser but not overly noisy when the music is playing.
    A Good Skipper Keeps the water on the outside of the boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote neil_cb125t Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 5:07pm
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Cheers for all the replies!

Sadly all I know boating wise is old carbed smokers, to be honest I very rearly have issues. Some great points made about costs effecting use.

Main use wont be trolling for game (im Whanganui based) - With a bigger boat and more faith in the motor i will want to venture further out and further away from the ramp. But that means I dont want to use 100Litres to find the fish either!

Who would by a carbed car indeed! I have a few weirder road vehicles, a 3cly 3 carbed 350cc 2 stroke kawasaki motorbike, literally the most thirstiest thing anyone could own......12lts gets me 70kms.....plus oil!

Seems the 4 stroke is the way - and maint costs are just something people (like me) need to get on board with.

I will consider a 5.5 surtees or Mclay with Yamaha 90hp smokers as they seem to be ok fuel wise, mainly due to the lighter weight. im guessing?

I wont ask about Etecs on this forum(thats a pandoras box from what I see.....) but do yamaha do a DI 2 stroke? or are all teh salt water series carbed??

2 Boats I have my eye on have a 2007 Df140 suzy or a 2004 Merc 150 Verado..... Anyone know about the Verados? Seems the Suzys are fairly solid!
 




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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote neil_cb125t Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 5:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Coochdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 5:49pm
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Nice looking rig! And only heard good things about seaforce boats.
My only concern would be the lack of hours.12 yr old engine with only 200 hrs = a lot of sitting around which isnt always a good thing.
If your serious make sure a mecanic gives it a good check over.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muzzfishing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 9:40pm
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Seaforce boats have a pretty good reputation. Boat and trailer look very tidy. As with any thing you buy can be a gamble get the motor checked for piece of mind, the fuel figures I posted are for a Suzuki 115 which is a similar motor. I looked into at buying the same motor 2007 on a 2007 Surtees 6.1 Barcrusher hard top 180 hrs $60,000. Dealer was giving the standard 3 month warranty, I was to slow so missed out.
    A Good Skipper Keeps the water on the outside of the boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote old timer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 11:08pm
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If you are buying a boat already powered I would definitely look for a 4stroke or 2 stroke injected.
If repowering different story. We have a lake/occasional sea boat that we re powered from a 115 to a 150. Minimal hours Year. No trolling. The savings in the motor price alone will keep us in fuel for many many years. Tis a bit thirsty but not too bad. Being bigger it's not working very hard
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote MacSkipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 7:32am
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I have no doubt 4S way to go but if you drive a Kawasaki 2S motorbike no problems!
 
My exp and reading is usually boats are under powered can be poorly propped or setup which makes very thirsty 2S - so if you can find a well powered well propped boat WITH service history and a careful owner - go for it!
 
You should be able to get a good deal with a tidy 2S on back - if boat repowered or older 4S you might be up for more $ or problems - personally Id rather run an old tidy 2S than an old mistreated 4S or with no service history.   So many 2S haters that you should be well placed to buy.
 
Personally I would be wary of DI 2S etec, Opti but so will a lot of other buyers so price should reflect this.
 
Good luck!
Good fishing trip nothing breaks, great trip catch fish.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote puff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 7:55am
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I’ve got hpdi Yamaha 200hp and it’s a beauty.
Fuel economy of a 4s and heaps of grunt.
Starts every time without fail, and the power is smooth.
According to Mr google these are one of the best Yamaha made... and I’d have to agree
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote neil_cb125t Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 10:28am
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Any easy way to tell if a Yamaha is hdpi?

Seaforce Contender no.2 has a real low hour yammy on it.

https://www.trademe.co.nz/trade-me-motors/boats-marine/motorboats/auction-2310578592.htm

Is $800 a fairly std 4 stroke service cost?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote puff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 1:28pm
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It’s written on the side
Hpdi
High pressure direct injection
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote neil_cb125t Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 1:57pm
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Originally posted by puff puff wrote:

It’s written on the side
Hpdi
High pressure direct injection


Makes sense - seems most are std carby 115 and 130s labelled as salt water series.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Coochdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 5:29pm
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Originally posted by puff puff wrote:

It’s written on the side
Hpdi
High pressure direct injection


And more of a sporty look than the v4 carbys,Kinda like Robo cops helmet
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote sea reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 8:45pm
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Depends on the hours, I bought my Surtees 5.5  90 Yam t/s  15yrs ago ,used regularly   500hrs , I dont travel huge distances,  $20   $25 doilars each trip. Never missed a beat, since I retired 5 years ago have serviced it myself. Same service as dealer previously charged 4 hours takes about 2 hrs.
I might buy another Yammy 90 t/s before they stop making them.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2019 at 9:32am
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So Im looking at moving up from my little 14.6v to a mid to late 5m+ Glass boat. Looking at Seaforce 600 and or haines/buccaneer/billfishers.

 Putting aside 2S/4S
 in general a fully load cabin glass boat, about 5.5m fully loaded 3 guys comes in about 1100/1250kg on the water... be it a old commander, or modern rayglass, buccaneer etc
 Economy and hull performance comes down to reserve power.
 Ideally boats around this gross weight do well with around 130/140 hp at the prop.
 Min is around 115hp.. the extra HP of the 140 will give you a good 10% plus extra in economy
 Get upto the 6m then looking around the 1650/1850kg gross weight... 175 min, ideally around the 200hp.

A well powered 2S is a lot.. significantly quieter than min or under powered.. far less engine load and less rpms at the same speeds..but not as quiet is the modern 4S.
 Economy between the 2 is very little if both have engines right height and propped to slip AND pitch correctly.

Older alloy boats tended to be much lighter.. thinner sheet metals etc, and run well with less hp because of the weight.
 Modern alloy are not much different to glass boats now.

If you dont get a boat thats well powered, you will regret it as soon as you get in a well powered boat and chop.. big time. Always go for the max speced hp for the boat.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Big -Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2019 at 8:16pm
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I used to run old two strokes, and the running costs made me wince and think twice before putting it in the water.
Since going 4 stroke, I care less about what it costs, and love the quieter and reliable starting/running.
I have been fortunate in that I got my motors at great prices, and can do my own servicing with a reasonable degree of competence. I can't comment on service costs.
you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...
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