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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2024 at 7:32pm
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Titanium
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Plenty of evidence,research in nthn hemisphere ,govt agencies ,the glysophate (roundup) has marked effect on marine fish.. Includes breeding ,behaviour. Very complex. Anyone can research this. And this country is a major user of roundup,which is now banned in over 20 countries. Add to list numerous pesticides ,herbicides that get into our marine environment.  Yet still suspect over fishing could be main reason for demise of scallops ,paua,crayfish etc..
Hope its that simple.
Incidently,what caused toheroa demise.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote v8-coupe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2024 at 9:30pm
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Originally posted by cirrus cirrus wrote:

Plenty of evidence,research in nthn hemisphere ,govt agencies ,the glysophate (roundup) has marked effect on marine fish.. Includes breeding ,behaviour. Very complex. Anyone can research this. And this country is a major user of roundup,which is now banned in over 20 countries. Add to list numerous pesticides ,herbicides that get into our marine environment.  Yet still suspect over fishing could be main reason for demise of scallops ,paua,crayfish etc..
Hope its that simple.
Incidently,what caused toheroa demise.

Overfishing and greedy human behavior from all sides of the ethnic spectrum.
From memory, a company was scooping them up and canning them for soup or some such thing.
We used to get them, Tuatua and Pipi along Paekakariki beach up to Waikanae then stop at Paremata on the way home for Cockles.
I can still taste those fritters now. Yum.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (4) Likes(4)   Quote Helmsy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2024 at 8:38am
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Yes environmental factors undoubtedly have an impact on some localised beds.

But when the commercial sector found the two "mother beds" in the outer Gulf between Colville, Great Barrier and Little Barrier that are/were responsible for seedind the vast majority of the scallops in the upper North Island instead of protecting those beds they immediately increased the commercial take by 1477% (not a typo and not missing a decimal point) from 22t to 325t. 

When it became very obvious that these beds were being decimated and becoming unsustainable, they refused to cut the limits, and pressure shifted to the other beds around the North Island as they struggled to fulfil their entire quota.

Then when it was patently obvious that the fishery was in collapse, the response was to close the entire east coast of the North Island, EXCEPT the two "mother beds", effectively excluding recs from the fishery while they could keep pillaging it. This was of course inevitably followed by the complete closure of the fishery once they'd had one final season, effectively wiping out the last of those deep beds in the outer Gulf.

If you ever needed an example of how blatantly corrupt the system is at times, this is it - the management of the East Coast scallop fishery since 2011 is one of the most shameful examples of greed and mismanagement you'll ever come across. 

To put it in perspective, this would be the equivalent of the commercial sector stumbling onto a previously unknown spawning ground for snapper for example way off the back of Great Barrier, where the vast majority of the snapper in the North Island were being seeded. Instead of protecting it, they increased the snapper quota by 15X. And then when the fishery was obviously in collapse after a few years of pillaging their breeding grounds, the response was to ban all snapper fishing in the North Island apart from in this small area where all of the snapper were breeding, and continuing to trawl them until there was none left so they're forced to completely ban snapper fishing indefinitely.

Sounds ridiculous right? 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Dagwood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2024 at 9:05am
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That's consistent with my memory along with this image of a commercial operator ignoring the Customary Rahui because legally they could.



Source here. Apparently the pirate flag wasn't intended to be inflammatory - he regularly flew it  Confused. 

I'm not bagging all commercials but this situation was far from their best work if they wanted to demonstrate any form of guardianship of the resource or respect for the community's wishes and tarnished their image in the minds of many. In my view lessons should be learnt from it.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Mc Tool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2024 at 11:40am
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 Makes sad reading Helmsy,    somebody had to be getting back handers  , blatant corruption and deliberate mismanagement  at the expence of  rec fishers , and all Kiwi's ( except them that robbed us )
I wish I was young again .... Id be heaps smarter than this time
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Grunta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2024 at 1:35pm
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The increase in jack mackerel harvest is as much of a concern as any of the increases. If you haven't read the article on baitfish in the Spring issue of Fishing News, then get your hands on a well-researched investigative piece by the Editor, Nick Jones. The argument isn't about commercial vs recreational, it's about the fishery as a whole.

Put simply, the bureaucrats who provide advice seem to be struggling to understand that hammering food sources to the point of collapse will affect the food chain. As a percentage, the jack mac increase isn't massive but the TACC is already greater than what's being caught  - (51.3K vs 43.7K tonnes).

Is there is message in there somewhere and is that one of the factors causing many snapper in the Hauraki Gulf to be starving?

The Minister can make better decisions, no question. Taking low value baitfish and exporting it for jack all isn't clever and never has been.

More info on Fisheries NZ here if you're interested.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote lawabidingpoacher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2024 at 4:38pm
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I live in Whangarei. Have always caught most of my own bait. Over the last 5 / 6 yrs it's getting harder and harder . Used to be able to go to any of the local wharfs or jetty's and catch enough no worries . I can go now and catch zero ?? Not even see any big enough to catch in the burly . Do I "blame" the local commercial netters , no . I blame the rule makers who have no fkn idea of reality !! Commercial are only doing there job and paying wages
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Pcj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2024 at 4:48pm
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Originally posted by Grunta Grunta wrote:

The increase in jack mackerel harvest is as much of a concern as any of the increases. If you haven't read the article on baitfish in the Spring issue of Fishing News, then get your hands on a well-researched investigative piece by the Editor, Nick Jones. The argument isn't about commercial vs recreational, it's about the fishery as a whole.

Put simply, the bureaucrats who provide advice seem to be struggling to understand that hammering food sources to the point of collapse will affect the food chain. As a percentage, the jack mac increase isn't massive but the TACC is already greater than what's being caught  - (51.3K vs 43.7K tonnes).

Is there is message in there somewhere and is that one of the factors causing many snapper in the Hauraki Gulf to be starving?

The Minister can make better decisions, no question. Taking low value baitfish and exporting it for jack all isn't clever and never has been.

More info on Fisheries NZ here if you're interested.

not sure what date this appeared on Fnet [Edit:Grunta - 06/07/2009]  but bascks up what I have said before. Happy for kiwis to destroy another countries fishery while we moan about exporting our baitfish.

https://www.fishing.net.nz/fishing-news/The-price-of-bait-could-skyrocket/


"Times up"
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Grunta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2024 at 4:48pm
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L.A.B - you're 100% right! 

They're doing what they're allowed to do and the issue is the abysmal decision-making by those in charge. Whether that's bad advice or for any other reason, who would know
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Helmsy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2024 at 5:03pm
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Originally posted by Grunta Grunta wrote:

The increase in jack mackerel harvest is as much of a concern as any of the increases. If you haven't read the article on baitfish in the Spring issue of Fishing News, then get your hands on a well-researched investigative piece by the Editor, Nick Jones. The argument isn't about commercial vs recreational, it's about the fishery as a whole.

Put simply, the bureaucrats who provide advice seem to be struggling to understand that hammering food sources to the point of collapse will affect the food chain. As a percentage, the jack mac increase isn't massive but the TACC is already greater than what's being caught  - (51.3K vs 43.7K tonnes).

Is there is message in there somewhere and is that one of the factors causing many snapper in the Hauraki Gulf to be starving?

The Minister can make better decisions, no question. Taking low value baitfish and exporting it for jack all isn't clever and never has been.

More info on Fisheries NZ here if you're interested.


I think you may have slightly misread those figures Grunta, the quota is actually 51,300 tonnes, a frightening amount.

And to make it worse, MPI openly admit that they have no idea what the impacts are - the below extract taken from the May 2024 document on the fishery



That's a truly horrifying sentence to read in an MPI document about a fishery that they've just increased the quota for
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Grunta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2024 at 5:23pm
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Thanks Helmsy - I missed the K out of the number so thanks for spotting. It's a frightening amount indeed - especially when you think about the actual number of jac macs that equates to.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote v8-coupe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2024 at 6:21pm
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Originally posted by Dagwood Dagwood wrote:

That's consistent with my memory along with this image of a commercial operator ignoring the Customary Rahui because legally they could.



Source here. Apparently the pirate flag wasn't intended to be inflammatory - he regularly flew it  Confused. 

I'm not bagging all commercials but this situation was far from their best work if they wanted to demonstrate any form of guardianship of the resource or respect for the community's wishes and tarnished their image in the minds of many. In my view lessons should be learnt from it.

If what they were doing was not illegal, then no problem
Just because the majority do not have the balls to ignore something that is not legal for fear of retribution and/or labeling does not make that operator a criminal or moron.
You should be laying the blame for this squarely at the bureaucrats' feet.
If people considered a rahui was needed, then after some investigation a legal no take notice should/would/could have been implemented.
Just out of interest, how do you know that operator was not a NZer of Maori descent with a valid permit to fish the area.
Even in a non-binding, not legal, voluntary implementation.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2024 at 8:46pm
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Quote Helmsy 
The effect on the eco system of extracting, for example,between 5000 and 10000 ton of  jack mackeral  from jm1 and about 30000 ton from jma3 per year over the past decade is unknown..
That is beyond stupidity. Note word" about" Indicates they dont really know true tonnage.  
And what about the plundering of the Blue Mackeral  off the N.E coast.  They dont know much about them either.Used to feature in my catch. Now absent. A great eating fish.
I would say that the effect of plundering the bait fish ,or any pelargic predator would be obvious.  Remove a segment of the fishery in great numbers ,you in effect remove the fishery,many fish species right through the food chain.,so complex. And all else that depends on it. Dolphins ,whales ,sharks,birds. The gannets ,terns ,shearwaters and the blue penguins..etc. etc. 
All are effected. A natural fishery is well balanced. What happens and will happen to that balance.?
Where is the management in all that. And they call it the Quota management system. Both the words quota and management seem highly suspect. 
And system.- where is that.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Alan L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2024 at 9:25pm
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The competence of MPI and their data is highly questionable. And where do they get much of their info from?
I was involved in the last review of the puka fishery - because I hasd been hammering local MPI over the s...t state of it. It turns out in something like 40 yrs of quota allocations, they had NEVER done a survey of the fishery. Sounds absurd? That is the fact. And they happily allocated comm quota beyond what was actually being caught. Then reduced quota when the catch continued to decline - but never below what the actual Comm catch rate was.
Then the Comms blamed the recs for the decline of the fishery. Really? I was at that meeting.
Sustainable management - we are seriously dreaming. Fish it til it is stuffed, then claim something else is to blame.
This is what happened to the W coast NI snapper fishery - trashed by Comms. Sorry - but true. So closed for the last few decades - except for recs. The fishery has bounced back big time. While Rec fishing continued. The last review that let Comms back in this yr urged a cautious approach/tonnage. May be able to sustain more - but based on last experience - watch and see the effect over next few yrs. All out the window with Jones - hiked it up to what 'may' be sustainable. 
There is something seriously smelly about our 'sustainable' fishery management.
Alan 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote brmbrm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2024 at 9:45pm
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Well if you vote for Nats, NZ first or ACT that is what you are going to get.   $$$$$ = first, everything else = last

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote out2sea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2024 at 1:22am
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Didn't Labour also get taken to court to reverse its dicision of raising catch limits against scientific evidence? It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2024 at 5:11am
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Originally posted by brmbrm brmbrm wrote:

Well if you vote for Nats, NZ first or ACT that is what you are going to get.   $$$$$ = first, everything else = last



What did 6 years under Labour do for the fisheries. I recall everyone hear saying prior to Labour getting in that they were going to be the saviour of recreational fihsing, well within a few months most were bitching that the new minister was no better. Lot of so called experts here that think they know better than the scientists.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote kimber7wsm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2024 at 5:43am
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I'm no expert but if the state of the Scallop fishery is anything to go by, then the experts are woefully incompetent. Simple cause and effect doesn't need a degree.

Increasing quota when it's not being filled already and then stating we have no idea as to the affect of it, is gross incompetence.

But I agree completely that Labour have been just as bad at not managing our fisheries as this lot. No party has even come close to managing it. Until it's managed properly we will always have rec's and commercials at loggerheads. The one exception seems to be the Fiordland cray fishery, why can't we use that success as inspiration? It is a wonderful case of commercial leading the way, it's a shame the lesson from that hasn't been taken.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Dagwood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2024 at 8:12am
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Originally posted by v8-coupe v8-coupe wrote:

[QUOTE=Dagwood]
If what they were doing was not illegal, then no problem
Just because the majority do not have the balls to ignore something that is not legal for fear of retribution and/or labeling does not make that operator a criminal or moron.
You should be laying the blame for this squarely at the bureaucrats' feet.
If people considered a rahui was needed, then after some investigation a legal no take notice should/would/could have been implemented.
Just out of interest, how do you know that operator was not a NZer of Maori descent with a valid permit to fish the area.
Even in a non-binding, not legal, voluntary implementation.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree I guess. 

If I was doing something adversely affecting a resource I claim to care about, I'd feel it's only right that I stop. Otherwise I open myself up to being called a hypocrite at best.
I never called or inferred anyone was a moron or a criminal. In fact I made it clear that they legally could do what they were doing. My point was that they damaged the sector's reputation in the eyes of many as being committed to ensuring the future of the resource.  
Yes a formal closure was being sought and eventually implemented but in the eyes of many, including the local Iwi, it was taking far too long so the community took the initiative.
There was no mention of the Iwi granting any customary permits to anyone. In fact the chances of them issuing one (especially 
to a commercial operator) given their tone at the time would be hard if not impossible to imagine.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Marligator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2024 at 5:23pm
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[QUOTE=Tzer]
More anti commercial B/S from Legasea, the science is so much better these days than what there was pre QMS and even in the years following its introduction. Yea so what if commercial have had increases they have also had some decreases, what this photo does show is that recreational have also had increases in to their allowance. FFS recreatioanl arent happy  matter which govenrment is in power, I can remember a lot of you saying when Labour got in there would be changes, well it didnt take long for a lot to bitch & moan about their fisheries minister duiring their 6 distructive years. Recreational contribute next to nothing towards fishery management but you lot sure as hell have a lot to say and in my view Legaseas anti commercial propaganda have all of you brainwashed into thinking that NZ fishery should be recreational only when the fact its a shared one, commercial, Iwi and yes recreational.

Craig, the issue is that yes FNZ does make increased allowances for recreational catch at times, but these are only paper increases, there is never an actual increase in the Daily Bag Limit, they work on the theory that people will go out more often if there are more fish to catch or will catch the existing limit more often. Which is actually a crock, as in this current economic climate people are actually going out less often as it just costs too much to catch a few fish. Whereas, the increase in TACC will be caught. 

It is absurd that one of the rationales put forward by the commercial sector for the increase in TACC for SNA8 was that they were struggling to get their Gurnard and John Dory quota without over catching their snapper quota. My understanding is that the gurnard and JD fishery on the west coast is in a pretty poor state (Smudge will correct me if I am wrong) and this large increase in SNA8 TACC is only going to make this worse. Yes the SNA 8 fishery can probably handle this increase in quota, but I am not sure that the other "by-catch" species caught in the trawl net fishery can handle it.
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