Hydraulic steering

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote DIY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2021 at 5:06pm
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It’s similar to an electric motor driving a hydraulic pump, because the way the pump is designed and hydraulic oil does not compress then it can deliver way more power than the motor itself. It doesn’t necessarily move the ram fast, but with lots of power.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Big -Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 8:04am
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Originally posted by davidc davidc wrote:

Originally posted by DIY DIY wrote:

My hydraulic steering is a small pump driven by turning the steering wheel, no electrickery required. This is a normal hydraulic steering but there may be electric systems used on bigger boats??

Thanks DIY and Kandrew. How does this pump result in more power to turn the engine than just turning the engine via cable without hydraulics? I haven't figured out where the magic extra power comes from :-)


Friction, there is next to no friction in a hydraulic system.
you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...
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Friction? I dont understand.. I can turn my 150cable very free and easy even from the outboard end..
I would compare to a car with front wheels off the ground or lighter.
 The old steering cable, which had a worn inner due to a curve that looked ok but a little tight  when compared to the new slightly shorter cable...
 And once I got the little fin under the gravitation plate right... not fighting the turn of the prop anymore.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Kandrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 11:10am
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Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:

Friction? I dont understand.. I can turn my 150cable very free and easy even from the outboard end..
I would compare to a car with front wheels off the ground or lighter.
 The old steering cable, which had a worn inner due to a curve that looked ok but a little tight  when compared to the new slightly shorter cable...
 And once I got the little fin under the gravitation plate right... not fighting the turn of the prop anymore.

Hi steps, just a bit confused here, this guy is asking about hydraulic steering and your talking about cable steering. Are you telling him that cable is the same or even better than hydraulic for his boat. I don’t know what sort of boat he’s got and what the cable setup up is, so if your pointing him towards cable then maybe there’s a bit more information needed for him to make the right decision.

Depending on the boat setup cable may not be the best solution that’s all I’m saying, it wasn’t the best solution for my boat with the tight angle the cable had to run at the back of my boat, that’s why I went with hydraulic.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kevin.S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 11:15am
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Originally posted by davidc davidc wrote:

How does this pump result in more power to turn the engine than just turning the engine via cable without hydraulics? I haven't figured out where the magic extra power comes from :-)

It's the same principal as a hydraulic jack, using one hand you can lift up a whole car.  Not magic power, just simple mechanics.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 1:22pm
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I doubt anyone would go back to cable steering after having hydraulic steering. Kevin is 100% right. Hydraulics are more reliable, lighter, smoother, all those good things. I don't know of any power boats that use motors, boat steering is a pretty light load anyway. The car jack analogy is a good one.

Steps refers to the little trim tab under the cavitation plate, if that isn't set correctly the boat will try to turn in one direction of it's own accord and be hard to turn in the other direction.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Kandrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 6:30pm
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Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

I doubt anyone would go back to cable steering after having hydraulic steering. Kevin is 100% right. Hydraulics are more reliable, lighter, smoother, all those good things. I don't know of any power boats that use motors, boat steering is a pretty light load anyway. The car jack analogy is a good one.

Steps refers to the little trim tab under the cavitation plate, if that isn't set correctly the boat will try to turn in one direction of it's own accord and be hard to turn in the other direction.
Correct it’s called the torque trim tab and it’s there to counter the effects of the torque created by the prop water flow. But it’s not quite that simple as this changes as the motor is trimmed up and down and you can feel this in the steering wheel. When the motor is trimmed properly and the torque trim is set correctly then the wheel should be neutral, have the same amount of pressure on weight on each side.

Torque from large motors when your getting up onto the plane is a totally different problem, this where a non feed back steering system can be better, this uses planetary gears to take the torque of the motor off the wheel.

What I’m saying above is depending on the boat, cable steering may not work properly, I only have a 115 on my boat and had non feed back steering, but with the outbourd pod design on the back of the boat the angle and tight radius the cable had to bend to when the cable comes out of the back of the boat, meant hydraulic steering was a simple solution. This can be a problem with a lot of tinnies with pods.

Being an ex auto electrician/mechanic I have driven 100s of boats with both cable and hydraulic steering and have never seen a cable system that’s better than hydraulic.

https://itstillruns.com/do-trim-tab-outboard-motor-5966607.html
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On my boat a cable would be a nightmare.in the way and so long that it would be stiffer than hydraulic.
Hydraulics are a proven method of transferring energy efficiently, and eve magnifying that force really simply.
In 15 years, I have only had to replace the ram seals once when they started weeping. A cheap and simple job.
you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2021 at 7:40pm
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Originally posted by Kandrew Kandrew wrote:

Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

I doubt anyone would go back to cable steering after having hydraulic steering. Kevin is 100% right. Hydraulics are more reliable, lighter, smoother, all those good things. I don't know of any power boats that use motors, boat steering is a pretty light load anyway. The car jack analogy is a good one.

Steps refers to the little trim tab under the cavitation plate, if that isn't set correctly the boat will try to turn in one direction of it's own accord and be hard to turn in the other direction.
Correct it’s called the torque trim tab and it’s there to counter the effects of the torque created by the prop water flow. But it’s not quite that simple as this changes as the motor is trimmed up and down and you can feel this in the steering wheel. When the motor is trimmed properly and the torque trim is set correctly then the wheel should be neutral, have the same amount of pressure on weight on each side.

Torque from large motors when your getting up onto the plane is a totally different problem, this where a non feed back steering system can be better, this uses planetary gears to take the torque of the motor off the wheel.

What I’m saying above is depending on the boat, cable steering may not work properly, I only have a 115 on my boat and had non feed back steering, but with the outbourd pod design on the back of the boat the angle and tight radius the cable had to bend to when the cable comes out of the back of the boat, meant hydraulic steering was a simple solution. This can be a problem with a lot of tinnies with pods.

Being an ex auto electrician/mechanic I have driven 100s of boats with both cable and hydraulic steering and have never seen a cable system that’s better than hydraulic.

https://itstillruns.com/do-trim-tab-outboard-motor-5966607.html

Hehe that's hard to beat and a great post thank you Kandrew 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2021 at 10:04am
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 Dave:  On my boat a cable would be a nightmare.in the way and so long that it would be stiffer than hydraulic.

 Yes and the number of curves in the cable...and how tight they are

The original post states
The 140hp engine on my 6.2m Commander is fairly heavy to turn,

Yes I  also have a commander, originally with a 115 V4,  now 150 V6..

The commander is a 5.5m hull (18' 2")

I replaced the worn innner cable cable when had the 115 ...and made a huge difference.
When up graded to the 150 and once again got the trim fin adjusted correctly after couple trips.. the 150 significantly even lighter

There is an old post on it.. how to measure correct length with 10 or 15 amp house hold wiring cable.
Which was next size down from the old one.
 And when installing from behind the helm, down into the bottom self inside the helm/ wiring cabinet, which I opened up the slot a little for better curve...then down under the gunnels, and a wide curve to the engine bay hole to engine.
 Thru the engine mount tub, to the correct steering lever for the engine....and onto the mounting bolt closest to the engine..

 Or in other words installed exactly as per the cable instructions and the factory engine install service and repair manual.

At one point I thought the cable was 1" too short, , taking a little out of each of the 3 curves... fitting text book perfect.

I have noticed since on many boats the the wrong mounting point to the engine is used... eg the mounting points used for duel engines .. I assume the thinking is further back from the engine more leverage lighter....it is actually a little heavier.

And have seen a lot boats in yards , friends, at the ramp...the number (most) that have cables a little long, curves a little tight..is most.
And these have in most been service work shop fitted.. an extra 1 or 2" makes a huge difference to the time and ease of install

As to reliable...
 Well reliability about anything is about maintenance.

 I looked closely at the greasing and access of salt to the engine tube and shaft.. a place where its common to get seized...
Even considered tapping a grease nipple in..and in the end of the cable...
Instead I put 2  O rings each end under screw caps to seal from salt water/ wash down.

I also note here the most of the cable set ups, if look as it ever been greased , had been with elcheapo marine grease or std bearing grease....can tell because it looks like clay over time.
A big reason why steering get stiff...

Use a quality brand grease like evinrude triple guard blue (red is the bearing grease)

So ANY ONE of the following will cause heavy steering from start or or develop) and some increased wear of inner cable due to friction.
1/ the curves not right
2/ lack maintenance
3/ Wrong grease
4/ Incorrect rod mounting position on motor
5/ Incorrect steering lever length
6/ prop torque fin adjustment


Get it ALL  right and cable is reliable and single finger light steering

Now for the Commander and some other older hulls.

The original factory cable is fixed on a bracket on the  transom , thru the engine well hole directly to the motor.
 The new replacement cables (that fit the original helm nps) go straight thru the hole, thru the engine mounting tube to the rod , and lever back to the bolt hole closest to the motor.

This causes a secondary issue..
 When tilt the motor up the narrow width of engine well causes the lever on port side hit the side of the well.

There are after market elliptical steering rod rubber boots that fit the required hole excellent.

With motor turned so the rod is hitting the port side of the well, and from bottom tilt right upto  full...mark out the min required  slot. And cut it out.. check it is the min size required for full tilt up and down.

Now put the elliptical rubber boot over the hole and open up so the boot fit neat and TIGHT.

I use urethane sealant to glue boots both side in.

So there it is....actual hands on  personal experience with a lot of advice from the highly respected local (at the time) service shop manager

If not sure DavidC you, or anyone else are welcome to  visit and check it all out.


 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Pcj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2021 at 12:12pm
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"Steps"   I looked closely at the greasing and access of salt to the engine tube and shaft.. a place where its common to get seized...
Even considered tapping a grease nipple in..and in the end of the cable...
Instead I put 2  O rings each end under screw caps to seal from salt water/ wash down.


On my Johnson on the tilt bar where there the steering rod goes through.There are 2 grease nipples from factory installed,just pump enough grease in till appears either end. Few turns of helm wipe off excess and seems good to me,been sitting for 6 weeks now and checked today nice and smooth.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2021 at 1:03pm
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Not sure what the set up on your engine is Paul but on many outboards those greasing points are for the tilt tube and don't actually grease the steering arm
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Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

Not sure what the set up on your engine is Paul but on many outboards those greasing points are for the tilt tube and don't actually grease the steering arm
Dont know "smudge" but grease through them helps the steering arm thats all I know ,only doing what previous owner said to do..Have had arm out and come out real easy along with cable.Did it a few months ago.   

Do like the sound of hydrillac steering,seems tidier
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2021 at 5:36pm
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Go to say the helm on mine starting to get pretty lumpy so everything wears out. Still I would never choose cable of hydraulic, but yeah cables work ok if you do the mtce for sure
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2021 at 10:35am
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On my Johnson on the tilt bar where there the steering rod goes through.There are 2 grease nipples from factory installed,just pump enough grease in till appears either end.

 No they do not do the tube as smudge states.. they do the shaft the engine tilts on. The other grease nipple is down on the leg that does the main leg shaft.
 The manual says use the evinrude blue triple guard for these as well.

Go to say the helm on mine starting to get pretty lumpy so everything wears out. Still I would never choose cable of hydraulic, but yeah cables work ok if you do the mtce for sure

 And hydraulics dont get lumpy.Wink

Bottom line one doesnt need far more expensive hydraulics on a boat around this size, even larger, if installed correctly and maintained..
And dont maintain hydraulics, again they will seize up just as easy... a few old threads on the subject limping home with broken steering.

If cant turn, even a big V6 with little effort with 1 hand, and not smooth lock to lock .. tilled or dropped, cable or hydraulic  something is wrong... NEEDS to be sorted.

If dont, Murphy, who should be your best friend will step up things break/ jam at the worst possible moment.. like on a bar... or need to be back crossing a bar before dark or tide conditions.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2021 at 9:43pm
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I would still not choose cable steering over cable steering Steps. I'm not saying cable steering doesn't work and yes it is ok if maintained.
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I would still not choose cable steering over cable steering

Think you miss the point of the "how to, what to watch for" post above smudge

The thread is not about one over the other it is about choice of cable or  hydraulic for a 5.5m V4 commander.

IE with kandrew, mentions large motors, (but not when on larger heavier boats)... smaller boats are fine.. (torque against not a solid heavier immovable object)  If set up and maintained correctly..which also applies to hydraulic
 Dave mentions due to length and both  ability to fit around bends..in their boats.

None of which I disagree with as all fits in with my parameters...If you read them.

Even you smudge admit your  hydraulic isnt working properly, "bumpy helm"  needs over due maintenance and has had issues (from memory) in the past.
( PS it is very rare it is the helm that causes the bumpy)

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Steps.the thread is about a person seeking advice on hydraulic steering just we drifted slightly.back to original.question yes my next one will be hydraulic.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote davidc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2021 at 4:32pm
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Thanks everyone for the input, and Kandrew for that link to the explanation.

Certainly hydraulics sounds like a popular solution! It will be good to have on my boat.

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