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    Posted: 26 May 2018 at 12:07am
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I’m close to pushing the button on a 5.5m alloy boat (rated up to 115) but still contemplating the engine options.  Have always had Yamaha but no longer any convenient & local dealer/service. That leaves Merc & Honda.  The Merc 115 is the default option (but most expensive).  I’m getting a lot of push towards the Honda 100 as sensible alternative (Honda 115 too heavy) -  it’s certainly a lot cheaper but i’m a bit sceptical for the following reasons (any comment/views gratefully received) :
*  Relatively small capacity at 1500cc vs all others (esp the Merc) with electronic trickery to boost HP (@ top of a steep rev curve  -  even compared to the Honda 90 & 80 with same block).
*  Delivering that HP at the prop via 2.33 box so relatively higher revving
*  Twice the number of moving parts (16v vs 8v)
*  Honda guys at the show said it ideally should run on 95 octane  -  points to the highly tweaked nature of the engine ?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Don18025 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2018 at 8:17am
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I looked at a Honda 100hp for our Taupo launch acouple of years ago.
If I remember correctly it is the 1500cc Honda Jazz engine block, so I was comfortable knowing that - re engine parts and automotive mechanics with tuning experience. I like engines with a larger use pattern than those specifically for marine use.                        The 80hp and 90hp ran okay on 91, but the 100hp needed 96 - 98 which I was not happy with as other family members use the boat and may fill with the wrong gas. 


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2018 at 8:37am
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 Honda guys at the show said it ideally should run on 95 octane  -  points to the highly tweaked nature of the engine ?

IF 95 is what the manual says.. keep in mind the USA rates octance as an ave, unlike most of the rest of the world.. US 95 is closer to our 91.
 Octane is determined by the cylinder pressure (not compression ratio) at point of firing ATDC at optium piston height /timing position. Higher the pressure  higher the octane required

As to weight between engines.. take say a V4  and a V6  (random brand) difference say 25 kg.
 Now apply that in practical terms.. difference being  less than the live bait tank full....
 yep will have a little difference in a say 4m boat.. a 5.5m.. nah.. you will not even notice anything at rest either
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Bigfishbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2018 at 9:11am
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A mate has the Honda 100 on a 5.5 metre Glass boat, Bonito I think. Goes really well and super cheap to run. 

Another mate has just put a Suzuki 115 on a 5.5 Surtees workmate. I can't believe the fuel economy he gets from that thing. The Suzuki is marginally heavier than the Merc, but no where near the Honda.

I put a 115 Merc on my boat last October, and after running 100 hours, couldn't be happier. 

When it comes to choosing between those three brands, buy the cheapest you can find at the time, the. The pricing relativity changes all the time, and you get dealers who will do their own special deals too. Watch out for extra costs like riging kits and change over costs. Mercs normally price their engines with rigging kits, but Honda didn't when I bought mine. The really are much of a muchness when it comes to reliability fuel economy and service costs. These days the only thing that makes a difference to fuel economy is engine displacement. the bigger the cubes the better the economy, counter intuitive I know. But make sure you have a certified service agent local. Nothing worse than having to keep taking your boat out of town for services.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Gappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2018 at 11:24am
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I have the new Suzuki DF100B on my 6m Rib runs on 91 and just amazing fuel economy has an average consumption of 0.42 lpm does 25knots for 12lph at 4000rpm so quiet also

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Muzzfishing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2018 at 8:01pm
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As Bob said I too asked at Boat show about the Honda re 95 octane. Last year in the end went for a 115 as that was the Max reccomended for my boat and from what I heard Surtees like HP and my local dealer sold Suzuki and gave me a really good trade in price so sealed the deal. Now I just go fishing used 6lts petrol last trip for 16.9km seems to be accurate according to petrol pumps.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Papa78 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2018 at 10:01am
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Thanks all for your comments.  Along with other conversations I'm veering toward the Merc (for Extreme 545).  Bob, have seen your posts re props etc  -  may PM you with a few queries.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Joker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2018 at 3:54pm
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Originally posted by Papa78 Papa78 wrote:

Thanks all for your comments.  Along with other conversations I'm veering toward the Merc (for Extreme 545).  Bob, have seen your posts re props etc  -  may PM you with a few queries.

I have the Merc 90 version of the same block but with the command thrust bottom leg - basically the bottom of a 150hp and run it on a FC560 c/c and more than happy with the performance of it. Done over 300 hours in 2 years without missing a beat.  
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Catchelot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2018 at 4:22pm
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Originally posted by Joker Joker wrote:

Originally posted by Papa78 Papa78 wrote:

Thanks all for your comments.  Along with other conversations I'm veering toward the Merc (for Extreme 545).  Bob, have seen your posts re props etc  -  may PM you with a few queries.

I have the Merc 90 version of the same block but with the command thrust bottom leg - basically the bottom of a 150hp and run it on a FC560 c/c and more than happy with the performance of it. Done over 300 hours in 2 years without missing a beat.  

Joker can you explain why you have done this, what is the advantage?

Longevity of the lower leg/gear box, etc? What does a command thrust leg do?

CheersClap
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2018 at 6:23pm
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Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:

 Honda guys at the show said it ideally should run on 95 octane  -  points to the highly tweaked nature of the engine ?

IF 95 is what the manual says.. keep in mind the USA rates octance as an ave, unlike most of the rest of the world.. US 95 is closer to our 91.
 Octane is determined by the cylinder pressure (not compression ratio) at point of firing ATDC at optium piston height /timing position. Higher the pressure  higher the octane required

As to weight between engines.. take say a V4  and a V6  (random brand) difference say 25 kg.
 Now apply that in practical terms.. difference being  less than the live bait tank full....
 yep will have a little difference in a say 4m boat.. a 5.5m.. nah.. you will not even notice anything at rest either
Usa fuel ratings are lower than you have stated,

If a fuel is 98 RON then it will be 93 PON -> 93 PUMP
If a fuel is 95 RON and 87 MON then it will be 91 PON -> 91 PUMP

QMS is not WORKING
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muzzfishing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2018 at 10:20pm
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PJ those fuel rating look confusing boat show was in NZ so dont need to worry about American fuel ratings. Im sure they meant 95 fuel as in NZ fuel  they told me the same thing last year when I asked about the motor. Looks like the Honda 100HP needs 95 fuel to get 100hp. I ended up buying a Suzuki 115, I asked about the fuel he said it would be fine on 91 but would like 95 better. 

    A Good Skipper Keeps the water on the outside of the boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2018 at 8:30am
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As stated above.. I would NEVER take a sales persons word for corect fuel / saettings what ever.. I would/ do cross reference with manufactures  specs.
 And the number times the off the cuff "specs" turn out incorrect is far too common.
 Correct octane is more than important.. its critical beyond  "best performance" or "economy"  it is critical to the long life of the power head.
 I stated the basic reason / relationship between octane , compression and timing above.
 Increase in octane means increase in timing because higher octane flame burns slower across the chamber to max cylinder pressure.. this results  the piston being lower in the cylinder less compression at max explosion point  therefore requires more advance.
 Less compression means less octane required, less advance.
 Therefore higher octane in an engine doesnt produce more power, and definitely the economy drops dramatically
 The issue on the economy drop , besides the hp at a given rpm drops, is higher octane has lower specific gravity.. less energy per volume .. 
Check the manual.. you will also find in the manual the explanation between how the USA rates octane and our ratings and what we should run.

 Outboards/ marine engines tend to have powerheads more loaded than a car engine.. Because they tend to be under/ min powered right thru the rpm range and propped to max efficiency of the manufactures rpm specs.
Because loaded are far more prone to long term damage be it incorrect propping or fuel octane, or mixture AFR , or timing.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (2) Likes(2)   Quote Gappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2018 at 6:20pm
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Steps why do you have to boffin out every post.

The Honda needs NZ 95octane to achieve its 100hp rating the Suzuki needs NZ 91 octane for its engines as stated by the manufacturer can't really get much more simple than that can it.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Joker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2018 at 8:10pm
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Originally posted by Catchelot Catchelot wrote:

Originally posted by Joker Joker wrote:

Originally posted by Papa78 Papa78 wrote:

Thanks all for your comments.  Along with other conversations I'm veering toward the Merc (for Extreme 545).  Bob, have seen your posts re props etc  -  may PM you with a few queries.

I have the Merc 90 version of the same block but with the command thrust bottom leg - basically the bottom of a 150hp and run it on a FC560 c/c and more than happy with the performance of it. Done over 300 hours in 2 years without missing a beat.  

Joker can you explain why you have done this, what is the advantage?

Longevity of the lower leg/gear box, etc? What does a command thrust leg do?
 

 
CheersClap
 
I didn't do it myself - its the Merc CT option that is supposed to give more lift due to spinning a larger prop at a lower prop speed and seems to power my boat well.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rozboon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2018 at 8:47am
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I've never been a huge fan of the highest output model of a given block.

For example in the Hondas, the 80, 90, and 100 are all the 1.5L inline 4.

Aside from just revving it a bit more, it would be interesting to know what, beyond an ECU calibration, has been done to get 20 more hp from the 100 over the 80. I always wonder if it just makes for a more highly-strung, slightly less reliable motor.

All of that said, I was recently out on a DNA 535 with the 80 on it, I was very impressed, extremely smooth and quiet, and the best bit was we did probably 40km that day and the fuel gauge barely moved off Full. I would be surprised if we used more than $50 of gas.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Papa78 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2018 at 7:55pm
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Managed to get on the water with an Extreme 545 & Honda100. Unfortunately it had 91 in the tank and certainly didn't have a relaxed grip on proceedings  - just 2 POB and once through 25 kts there was a a feeling the small block was working hard. Adequate and competent but still on track for Merc 115  -  possibly with 4 blader to reduce reliance on trim down as no fwd cabin to keep weight down (WOT not a primary objective).  Am going with 2 batteries and may put them in console (as is the norm overseas) - that moves 35-40kg of dead weight off the transom.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Papa78 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2018 at 8:08pm
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"I've never been a huge fan of the highest output model of a given block"

I get the logic but take the view the Merc 115 in a similar position is less of an issue -  more a case that the 90 & 100 are relative outliers at 2.1 litre.  A Yamaha guy at the show admitted their 135 is pushing the limits of tweaking their 1.8 litre block!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Bigfishbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2018 at 10:05am
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Originally posted by Papa78 Papa78 wrote:

"I've never been a huge fan of the highest output model of a given block"

I get the logic but take the view the Merc 115 in a similar position is less of an issue -  more a case that the 90 & 100 are relative outliers at 2.1 litre.  A Yamaha guy at the show admitted their 135 is pushing the limits of tweaking their 1.8 litre block!

Yes too right it all depends on the size of the block. In terms of the Merc and Suzuki both are around 2.1 litres, compared to 1.8 litres for Yamaha. I would argue that the lower displacement engines are working harder than larger ones at the top of the performance range. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muzzfishing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2018 at 5:03pm
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Papa I think you will be very happy with the performance of the 115 Merc. Plenty of power and good economy.
    A Good Skipper Keeps the water on the outside of the boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Gappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2018 at 8:02pm
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Papa where are you based?
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