Haines SF535 Repower

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    Posted: 18 Dec 2021 at 11:37am
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I’m looking at upgrading my 2003 115hp saltwater series Yamaha with a new four stroke.
The logical place I started was with Yamaha but have been told that if I ordered now that ‘maybe’ I would be able to get it done next July due supply issues.
I’m also looking at the 140 Suzuki fly by wire but have a question regarding the build plate info on the boat that says recommended max Hp of 130.
Anyone know what this is based on ?
It also has a max engine weight which all the options I’m considering are well under.
The Suzuki 140 is actually 3kgs lighter than the 115.
I’m aware of the traditional Haines/Yamaha relationship that might affect resale value in the future and I’m happy with the weight considerations but does anyone have any other advice/info about this ?
Any info greatly appreciated.

Cheers


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Pcj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2021 at 12:05pm
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10 hp extra,not a big difference. weight 3kg saving. Whats the difference on price,suzuki v yamaha??

Anything wrong with current motor? that you cant wait till July??

Guess personal preference yamaha or suzuki. Can you get a suzuki??
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Zkcub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2021 at 12:28pm
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The 140 Suzuki is $500 cheaper fitted than the 130 Yamaha.
Nothing wrong with the current motor but been given the green light from the home boss and after the last 18months bit nervous it might get revoked at some point while waiting !
Suzuki can be fitted early Jan.
I’ve always had Yamahas and never had an issue but currently spending a lot of time on Suzuki powered boats and pretty impressed with them.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Pcj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2021 at 12:58pm
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ONE can't argue with home boss.early January and out fishing.why not go for it.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote kimber7wsm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2021 at 5:59am
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Motor weight is the biggest consideration here and as the 140 is lighter than the 115, that's all good. The extra power will change the boat for the better.

10hp over recommended maximum, won't effect boat structure long term. 10 extra won't magically break it.

It may pay to ask the insurance company though. They'll use any excuse to wriggle out of paying, even if it's imagined (which in this case it would be).

Maybe ask Haines, if you can get a 140 rating.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote neil_cb125t Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2021 at 9:03am
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The Suzuki 100-115-140hp are the same motor. The 3kg weigh saving will be the new flyby wire saving. The Hp is just Cams and ECU. 

I have the 100hp on my glass boat, I know a guy with a 140 on the same boat. The boats plate states 115hp is max. 

From the info we have shared there no down side, his 140 runs the exact same fuel economy as my 100. Both are propped pretty well by the sounds. 

He sort advice from the boat manufacturer prior to installation. To which I believe he got the green light.

I can get 34ish knots flat out, the 140 is more like 40. 

The Suzukis are simply wicked donks, I don t think there are bad brands - Honda has 2 more year warranty, but the 140has a few extra bits over the 115 and 100 - WRT lean burn/fuel saving so think that's how the economy is so good. 

Cam chain is my biggest love, no cam belts to change = massive saving if you're running the motor long term.  

4 strokes feel way different, going up to 140 aint a bad idea as 2 strokes have more punch - so the 140 will actually feel like an upgrade.

my thoughts anyway
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2021 at 9:05am
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140 is a big power for for such a small (light) hull.
Gross weight on water.. just a guess here  1000/1050 kg
140 will push a 5.5m rayglass 3 ppl full load around the high 40 mph
Will push a 6m fryran (thick hull) around the 48 mph
And a old 5.5m Commander with 150  just under 50mph with 150 L fuel on board..  A 115 hp will get up around 39/40 mph with 80L plus gear 3 guys.

For well powered .. for chop etc a WT at normal load about 40/42 mph will do the job nicely.

Extra weight on the back, ok to well powered,wthink about a full or mt live bait tank .. At anchor may sit 1" lower, get over the bow wave and up on the plane... no difference

Another guess here, I havnt got my data bases handy, your Current WoT with the 115 would be about the 38 mph anyway.. Still good power if not going over bars and such..

Anyone know what this is based on ?

It is based on formula originally from the US coast gaurd applied to NZ specs. And like electrical cable , and many other things with large margins of safely built in.

 I have mentioned this before , and others substantiated, It is not unknown for companies if asked , will supply a new tag with new specs at a price... knowing their build far exceeds the 'safety specs' based on distentions , flotation , heap of other stuff.

And the difference between 130 hp and a 140 , just under 10%, will give a increase of around 3 to 4 mph WoT.
Which since WoT in practice doesn't matter
IT will give a little more economy .. slightly lower rpms at cruise for same speed of propped correctly.. slip and pitch.
 It will give a slightly fast cruise speed at similar economy.. which end of a 30 min trip would be only a couple minutes..
 Where it will show more is in chop, over wakes etc.. set throttle  and go, with a far more comfortable ride.

 And rem new motor.. different power, different gear box ratio.. will mean a different prop.
 Diameter and pitch


With the current 115...in bit heavy chop , can you just set the throttle , go thru it , or do you need to work the throttle to stay on the plane... Im talking sensible speed here ?

 


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote DIY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2021 at 12:02pm
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I’m the guy Neil refers to with the 140 Suzuki. The boat is a Seaforce 530 Ute and when I bought it the manufacturer was happy to update the plate to 140hp as the weight was still below the max allowed. I absolutely love the motor and the fuel economy is excellent being around 0.6 - 0.7 litres per NM. It is scary fast but that wasn’t the reason for going that big. I got a good deal on it and it is just so nice having plenty of power at hand. I don’t notice a difference whether there are 2 people on board or 4-5. It’s also nice to leave the throttle alone in a bit of chop and just power through. I’m going to keep this boat for the foreseeable so didn’t mind spending a bit more on the set up.
Oh what a smasher - two eggs and a rasher!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2021 at 5:43pm
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Seaforce 530 Ute... OK crunching a few numbers..
 1st with the
 100 hp 34 kn (40 mph)  estimate gross weight of water gives around 1070kg. which is pretty much ball park..

Side note : maybe engine could be a little low, sort of between the 2 low and slightly high next notch up..
Prop, If not real close, at least in ball park.

Now wack a 140 on the back, will give a slightly faster cruise therefore most likely can put up the 'extra' 1/2 notch. Now WoT at corrected height, should be able to pull 50 mph (43/44 kn) trimmed up for that speed  with WoT rpms , with normal load, in the middle of the manufactures rpm range.

Prop selection @ Wot should have around the 4 to 5% slip, with around 12 to 15%  normal cruise on the 100, 115 and the 140... Each will have different pitch, with the 140 possibly up around the 21".. depending on each engines gear box ratio..
Get that slip right for each motor and the difference in economy and cruise speeds will be quite noticeable.

 A 100 will make a planing hull of that co efficient and gross weight a nicely powered powered boat..
A 115 a well powered boat.
 A 130 or 140 is very much a " everyone holding on" turn actually check, bit throttle... takes off , over the bow wave, trim up and back off the rpms a little for cruise.

Wack a 140 on it, head over a bar, things start to turn to crap.. be it a wave stands up in front of you going out, or one comes in at an angle behind you coming ... and you will be very glad to have it instantly there.. very glad.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote DIY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2021 at 6:20pm
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Mine has a 23” prop and with no load flat sea I can just about reach the rev limit of 6200. Normal load tops out about 5900 - 6000.
Oh what a smasher - two eggs and a rasher!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote strx7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2021 at 10:46am
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Originally posted by neil_cb125t neil_cb125t wrote:

Cam chain is my biggest love, no cam belts to change = massive saving if you're running the motor long term.  


Don't be fooled about cam chains...  Lots of vehicle engines on chains these days do need them replaced...  Suzuki's car engines have needed their timing chain replaced every since suzuki started using them so cant really see why suzuki's outboard engines would be any different.....  Not as often as a cambelt but still needing to be done....
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2021 at 1:46pm
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DIY  :
 Done a bit of number crunching  out of interest over morning coffee

the fuel economy is excellent being around 0.6 - 0.7 litres per NM.

Is that taken over several trips and an ave 'mileage' ?
If so thats not bad .

Something to bear in mind, we can take fuel numbers at given speeds rpms etc, yes good indicators to find the sweet spots etc.
General use boats are like cars, not like a tractor ploughing a big field.. or aircarft traveling great distances at constant load.
 Our cars an boats speed up , stop , slow , all the time.
 Hence why cars are an ave mileage for general use, and tractors equipment that run at constant rpms and loads  are L per hr.

23” prop and with no load flat sea I can just about reach the rev limit of 6200. Normal load tops out about 5900 - 6000.

Yep 23" on that weight to power ratio.. I mentioned 21" above, propping always be on the conservative side.. that how powerheads  die..slowly... often blamed on other stuff.
 Dont know how accurate the data is ..
based on this, correct if wrong
140 Suzuki
gear box 2.59:1
 WoT 40kn (46 mph) (personally think it would be up around the 50mph height correct, or close.)
Rpms 5900..

 Slip 8.1%  close and not enough to think about the cost of a prop 1/4" larger in diameter or bit more cupping... or engine up a notch.

Which gives a 4000 rpm cruise, normal weight, 28/20 mph ??
Your data, if accurate would indicate either carrying more gear than 'normal' and/or possibly engine a little low.. which maybe because ideal between  mounting holes, or 1 hole too low.???
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote DIY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2021 at 3:11pm
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Thanks Steps, the fuel economy is an average since I got the boat in 2019. It’s done approx 140 hrs. I like this form of measurement as it has been very reliable and I can see in real time if trim etc is right. In a good sea trimmed right, it sits at 0.6 and with a bit chop or big of weight will sit at around 0.7. I will get the same numbers from about 15-16 kts through to 25-26 then it starts to climb a bit.
Regarding the engine height, I have played around with this and one hole higher worked ok in a straight line on a flat sea but would ventilate a bit in chop or turning slightly. Dropped it back down and is more forgiving with the trim so decided to leave it there. I normally cruise in a good sea with it trimmed up to about 85% but in a bit of chop might go down to 60-70%.
Oh what a smasher - two eggs and a rasher!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Zkcub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2021 at 9:09pm
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Thanks for all the comments really appreciate it.Ordered the Suzuki today so Fingers crossed it all works out good.
Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2021 at 3:40pm
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Just dont go throwing over the damn transom...
You will see what I mean when get it Wink
1st time out, no matter how slow you intend to take off, ask if everyone holding AND turn and check they arre holding a solid rail...
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote DIY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2021 at 5:59pm
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Zkcub - I have a spare 3x14x23 prop for my Suzuki 140 if you want to borrow it if experimenting with props. I’m in West Auckland.
Oh what a smasher - two eggs and a rasher!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Zkcub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2022 at 12:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2022 at 1:10pm
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Nice, it wont be too big but yeah as Steps says make sure the crew are hanging on!
Best gurnard fisherman in my street
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Schampy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2022 at 8:37pm
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Looks wicked.
I would done the same thing if I had to make the same decision.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote JustAnotherSpearo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2022 at 6:27am
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Im excited to just see what your figures are! Looks good!
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