Need help Smokin!

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    Posted: 18 Nov 2018 at 2:32pm
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Short Story: I used to use a killwell on the BBQ. Didn't find the food very smokey. Maybe it cooked to fast. 

I switched to cold smoking to try and get a better flavor. I have had other people cold smoked kingfish and it was awesome. I make awesome cold smoked kahawai. But that's all. Every other fish including kingfish is terrible and I always have to make a pie to salvage it. Obviously I am doing something wrong and kahawai is just resilient.

Step 1. Take kahawai out of freezer
Step 2. Brine overnight (12 hours or so) in fridge with 1 tablespoon of sea salt per cup of water and a splash of soy sauce.
Step 3. Wash brine off. Dry. Put in smoker.
Step 4. Cold smoke in 50/50 manuka/tawa mix for 8 hours
Step 5. Optional - do a hot smoke to cook it at the end
Step 6. If kahawai its great. Everything else has opaque flesh that looks like jelly and is complete unappetising.

I have been refining this method for a year, and still the only thing thats is successful is kahawai. I would really appreciate some help to figure out what I am doing wrong.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Catchelot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2018 at 2:58pm
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Hmmn...8 hrs for one Kahawai does sound a little extreme, may I ask;  What temps and what method or rather/what machine?


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Originally posted by Catchelot Catchelot wrote:

Hmmn...8 hrs for one Kahawai does sound a little extreme, may I ask;  What temps and what method or rather/what machine?



Thanks for replying.

I retrofitted a smokai cold smoker to a Gasmate stand up smoker. When cold smoking it just operates at ambient temperature. If I turn the burner onto its lowest setting the temperature climbs to about 120C.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote KikBac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2018 at 3:35pm
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I would up the brine to 500g rock salt / 500g brown sugar in 8 litres of water (reduce down proportionally if making lesser quantities.) A half cup of malt vinegar adds a nice touch - I guess the soy sauce will do much the same. The sugar should give a nice golden glaze. If fish is still jelly like (raw?) up the heat a little right at the end.
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8 hours isn't enough for a true cold smoke. 20+ hours would be more like it. What you probably need is what I call a warm smoke. Try doing your 8hr cold smoke and then light a small fire in a pan in the bottom of the smoker using chunks of manuka or fruit tree wood. Pohutukawa is also good. Light the fire outside the smoker and once the fire has burned down to produce some decent chunky embers throw a few handfuls of manuka sawdust on it and put it in the bottom of the smoker. Let that heat up the smoker for a couple of hours. Smoker should get almost hot to the touch for at least 30 minutes during that period and warm for the rest of it.

What I do, which I & my friends really like is - 
Straight after work or after fishing, split the fish and cover the flesh with salt & brown sugar. Amounts to your taste, but don't under-do either if you want that heavy smoky flavour. Leave them sitting while you do the other prep.

Light a fire as above in a pan,but inside the smoker. Get it going and close the smoker up. When you have burned down to chunky embers, add plenty of sawdust to completely smother the embers. The Smoker will already be quite hot from the fire, but the heat goes out a bit when you open the door. Once any new ash etc from adding the sawdust has settled ( 2 or 3 mins) place the fish in the smoker lying flat on their skin side. There will be juice drawn out by the salt sitting on the fish but leave it there. Don't dry it off as it is holding the salt and sugar. Place the fish as high as you can away from the fire.Bigger fish up high and smaller fish down lower.
Close the door and occasionally check the amount of smoke and check the warmth of the smoker for the next few hours. It should stay warm to the touch. If you start seeing flames, or the smoker gets too hot, shut down the air flow or even remove the fire and smother it with more sawdust before putting it back after the smoker has cooled a little.
I normally find that I would do 3 or 4 top ups of the saw dust by say 10:30pm and do a final big top up of sawdust at that stage. Go to bed and it is ready when you wake up in the morning. I used a 7ft high big equipment cabinet like this for years and more recently a Brinkman smoker. Just need to play with the fire size a little for the different size smokers.
Only thing that sometimes goes wrong (but seldom) is that you don;t notice that the sawdust pile has caught on fire and getting too hot. Fish can get a little dry if that happens, but once you get it sorted it happens very little.

I know everyone says to brine and dry etc. That is probably still best practice, but what I do works really good and takes less time. I also don't have to fight the wife for fridge space when brining etc. waking up to fresh smoked fish for breaky is pretty decent as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote MATTOO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2018 at 5:59pm
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Am I missing something here,

Did you say take the kawhai out of the freezer.

Do you do that to all your fish?!

I maybe able to help, spill the hull truth about the beginning only of your process.
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Are you brining the kawahai whole?? Or are they split open. Try brining them from, frozen.
I freeze down fish chunks and brine from frozen, which works for us.
Those that say it can't be done are being overtaken by those doing it.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MATTOO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2018 at 6:24pm
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What kind of fish Geoff do you freeze then smoke.
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Kawahai are always good no matter what I do and always good from frozen. I often defrost in the brine too. Its any other fish I struggle with. When I smoke some kingi and it doesn't turn out it kills me.

I filet and skin before I freeze. It doesn't really stick to the rack as the bars don't provide much surface area for the fish to stick to.
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Frozen kingfish,Hmm that maybe 1/2 the problem,try when fresh as fish looses flavour when frozen.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote MATTOO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 7:36pm
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So if I may,
Frozen food is already a number of grades lower than good.

The point of smokin as with sashimi as with frying, even in batter is fresh is best.

White meat frozen is mushy, red meat less mushy.

The process of looking after your food in this case fish is of prime importance.

Let us ignore those who will eat anything in any state and stick to best practise.

First up,
Kill the fish and chill immediately.
Gut and gill and keep chilled.
Nothing but salt water to this point if you need to clean the fish.
Keep chilled.
From this point on no water salt or otherwise unless immersing in brine.
Water of any time accelerates bacterial composition, good for beef but not fish.
If eating by frying, fillet and skin and process on second day.
Flesh will be firm and easy to handle.
Time to brine, time to fry, time to smoke and time to put back in the chiller for sashimi for processing on the third day.
It's an involved process smoking for good food.
It's a process of chilling and cleanliness that will give you best results.

As for all of us we set our own standards for our food, it's your choice for the standard you are prepared to consume.

Best practice requires intention, to eat well with good methods.

All yours from here.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote i-spear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 8:47am
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I agree with you MATTOO, I would a better result if fresh. But if I stuff the process with smaller amounts of frozen fish the loss isn't so great. I don't think the frozen part is the larger issue but the rest of the process. Once I sort out the brine/smoking/storing parts I will switch to fresh.

However, if you think fresh will completely change all the process I will try it.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 9:06am
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I started out smoking on BBQ..
was ok. but.
Smoking frozen .. tried that.. think has something to do with the meat changing..

  After picking up a cheap cabinet smoker.. couple minor mods to seal door properly, and enable cooler temps  .. down around 38/40 deg.. things got to a stage could experiment.

An acquaintance who professionally smokes craft foods was of great help..
 1/ throw way manukua.. or at least, if marketing just enough to claim manuka.. it has a background harshness to it that a lot of ladies get put off smoked foods.. Apple, maple, hickory, feijoa, peach blends are my main go tos now.
2/ you dont need brown sugar to get colour/ flavour.. (Acquaintance is diabetic) It is having the surface of the meat, in particular fish, dry.
 He brines over night..

I have ended up doing this..

1/ Fillets stored at least overnight in the fridge in a container with a drain grill in the bottom..  They are smoked skinned boned on racks.. and no they do not dry out.. A larger KY fillet takes around 5 to 6 hrs.. put similar size fillets on the same rake, smaller come out earlier when just cooked right thru.
2/ In 1 L water, 100 gms of non iodised sea salt, 
100gm malt brown sugar.. this can be adjusted to taste.. 3/4 cup of sweet chilli sauce.. dissolve everything well or whatever flavour you wish to have a go at.
3/ drain the fish in the container, pour over till just covered , then roll the fillets around to get marinate in...
 A large KY fillet soak about 2 1/2 hrs.. smaller 1 1/2.
 Mix and roll couple times over the time.
4/ Remove fillets lay out on a towel, ex skin side up, and pat dry as best as can with another towel.. very important.
5/ Sprinkle as little as possible (important) more malt brown sugar over the fillets then rub in even.
 Lay out fillets in racks that have been pre sprayed with aerosol non stick oil.. the olive works better than canola.. skin side down this time.
 Repeat the malt sugar above, then from a great height, grind as little as possible black pepper evenly. 
 6/Put in smoker, larger fillets at the top.

 Temp around the 38 to 42 deg
 After about 40 mins check and if excess water on fish, quickly .. maybe repeat.. different times of the yr it seems the fish 'produce' more water.
 If this water is not sponged off you will lack colour

Smoke till just cooked right thru, do not over cook.

Any spare racks I fill up with marinated chicken drum sticks, sausages, chops, strips of pork belly

 Important chicken must go at the bottom.
The extras I leave till everything else is out, then turn the heat up to 70/ 75 deg for around 30 mins

 The mods to the cabinet covered in detail in an old thread
!/Good door seal..
2/ strong magnets on inside lip of door opening to hold door closed.. handy when have racks in your hands
3/ opened up the top vent  to enable better flow to help get temps down
4/ changed the piddly little chip holder to a round cake tin 1/4" holes top and bottom that holds enough chips for a full 6/7hr smoke.
5/ changed the lpg regulator to one that the top screws off  and can be adjusted...I can now drop the burner flame right down to next to nothing
6/ This resulted in the slightest  breeze to blow the flame out.
  put an extension on the chimney to the eaves of the shed.. and exit out side... so can now smoke inside the shed.

Ideally.. I think, would have been to replace the burner with a much smaller.. maybe, not going down that route as the adjustable regulator works a dream.

Dont smoke ex frozen...thu If the fillets had been vac packed, that works  but still no where as well as fresh fish 1 or 2 days old

 The as above the smoked fish/ everything keeps in the fridge very well for 5 or 6 days (thu really lasts that long) or get sick of it.. so the fish gets vac packed after 3 to 5 days.

 the reason going to fillets was when goes into the kitchen, fillets are ready to go.. no bones / scales
 And that really comes into its own when vac pc the left over pile. When comes out is ready for pie/ savory on crackers whatever
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MATTOO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 10:30am
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I Spear,

You didn't mention wether your experience is better or worse with white flesh fish or red flesh.

To my taste, white flesh deteriorates quickly after frozen. In fact both do.

Commercially I believe there advantage to frozen fish is that they can snap freeze ( I believe that's the term) often in factory ships.

I believe we struggle with that comparison.
Our best seems to be a frozen slurry which still is a good treatment for our fish initially prior to dry chilling.

And I do believe that processing fresh fish wether by brine or fresh does achieve a higher standard of product for either smoking, frying, batter and so on.

We have to make our own calls by our experiences learned or gained. You'll figure out what your like.

And using this forum for further insights is exactly what the forum is for.

As an extra piece of info for smoking fish in particular. Don't forget to form the pelicle on the fish.
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As an extra piece of info for smoking fish in particular. Don't forget to form the pelicle on the fish.

 Always learning something new.."pelicle"
Hanging fish, the moisture tends to run off into the water tray
 Laying fillets/ fish it just lays there espec at low temps...
 Andhence why I need.. in post above to sponge off after mainating and occassionally during the smoke.
 If its wet it doesnrt flavour well or colour.

 I have experimented with air drying at low temp in the fan oven at different temps , door open closed and cracked.. it works but the fish also tends to cook, reducing smoke time to  just cooked white flesh
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Some good information there. 

The things I seem to be doing wrong:

Smoke kingi fresh (kahawai is fine defrosted)

I "cook" too cold. I mean, I add no heat. If its a 15C day that's what I smoke in unless I turn the gas on at the end - which I leave off as even the lowest setting is over 100C. I haven't needed to remove moisture as i'm applying no heat so the flesh isn't expelling any moisture.

The smoakai adds a ton of smoke - it just pumps out. You say that manauka is too strong, but tawa is even stronger and I am using both. Maybe I should tone it down.

I haven't been applying any sugar. I used to and don't know why I stopped. I guess I forgot.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 12:45pm
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A traditional cold smoke is more like 24 hours than 8 hours. On a thicker fish like a Kingi you won't get it done in 8 hours with no heat. I think traditional cold smoking might also suggest hanging the fish so they can drain better rather than lying them down. Not sure but might be worth reading up on.You may also want to salt a bit heavier for a full cold smoke on a thick fish.
I would try adding some heat towards the end and see how you go. If you like 'old fashioned' smoked fish Manuka is fine. I actually really like Pohutukawa and use that a lot. I do like my fish well smoked though.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MATTOO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 4:47pm
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I have always enjoyed smoking foods.
The techniques are vast and varied.
I've tried quite a few over my years and still trying.

I like pohutukawa too Tagit. But my current favourite has been beech.
I have also found that cutting out all the bloodlines out of my kawhai has dramatically improved the look and taste when beech smoked. Most enjoyable.

Cold smoking does require some heat. This also needs as Tagit pointed out, increases in heat and time for mass.

I recently terminated my large cold smoker.
It was an in ground and above unit with the fire pit at one point and ten metres up the hill was the smoker box.
It was fairly large and could do a couple of pigs, sheep , chickens and still have space.
It was very time consuming and some of my smokes could take me a week.

I don't do such large smokes anymore but my progress through many styles has brought me to my current smoker.

As I'm passionate about my food and after spending some time with a commercial smoker and the formats they use I realised to have control over the smoker is truely beneficial.

The unit I currently use has a hopper with a self drive to the burner.
The cabinet is insulated stainless ( basically double walled)
All components are stainless.
The heating unit has varied power outputs that are then also thermostatically controlled.

All electric. It's a glorified oven I suppose, but the ability to have the precise control like an oven enables some refined techniques for all food items.

Anyway that's my current toy.
Pretty pleased with the results over the last two years.

For those who haven't googled it "the pelicle"
Is the process of forming bacteria which gives fish the natural sheen after smoking.
To form the pelicle it needs to be left in an area of draft, that is cool and not in the sun.
Covered with a fly or insect cover.
Generally takes 2 - 5 hours.
Yes I get it's a lot of extra work and it's not relevant for most but i thought it was good info for those who may have an interest.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Keith C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 5:29pm
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Endorsing Mattoo’s comment on pellicle.

For pellicle, I made a wooden frame wrapped with shadecloth (80%) with a few rails & a lift-off, waterproof lid. I then hang the brined fish on stainless hooks for 8-12 hours in a cool location (under my deck) or outside overnight (to avoid heat). The ability to air dry before smoking really makes a difference to the end product.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MATTOO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 5:37pm
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Keith C,
What a brilliant idea.
I hadn't thought of that.
I've been using the wooden floor in the kitchen with through draft, I must say not always a popular move "by she who must be obeyed" and I'll add a discrete " yeah right" only cos I know she'll never read these posts.
Just cruising in my now sweetas pimped out Southern 755 HT0!
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