Johnson 120 V4 VRO

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    Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 11:41pm
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I've got a Johnson 120hp V4 VRO on the back of a Haines V17. Had it about a year so thought...."better get it serviced for the season".

Well......it worked perfectly before!! Now I'm $800 poorer and the overheat alarm goes off after 2 minutes!!

I sought advice on where to go for a service (this is my first boat). They recommended new thermostats (2 x $100 a pop) and I'm thinking the old ones were probably better??

Has anyone else had issues with new thermostats?? Or does anyone have any thoughts as to what could be the issue? I have been around small petrol engines and bigger diesel lumps in my time but rightly thought "don't do it yourself.......get a professional"!!! Yeah, right......!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MacSkipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 6:35am
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I have had problems where service is done by apprentice/novice and charged out at hefty rates and not going afterwards at first outing at ramp - call them and explain situation to boss and arrange to take it back and park in front of workshop till you make sure they will look at it (with you watching ideally) and unless a satisfactory explanation, fixed ASAP and very apologetic (sh*t does happen sometimes) go elsewhere next time!  Tell them you will be complaining long and loud on social media if they don't sort out to your satisfaction if they don't respond.
Shop I mentioned they really didn't care, foreman did fix it up reluctantly and as problem was poorly supervised work I didn't feel that apology was sincere and didn't go back again (shop went bust a few months later anyway Thumbs Up).
Good fishing trip nothing breaks, great trip catch fish.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 8:34am
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Learnt many decades ago.. not boats, always check even a new thermostat specs with an electric jug and thermometer... Simple enough to do with Johnson..
Did they return your old thermostats? 
 When fire up in a drum.. or at ramp.. should get a strong steam water then as the fast idle drops the stream also slows but takes far less than "8 mins" Water stream should be warm, not hot.

 Also had an issue with a full service and young new guy on staff... baddly yorqued trailer U bolts.. missed cracked fuel lines.. cleaned battery terminals while engine running (NEVER disconnect battery while engine running with solds sate alternator regulars.. the old diode Delcos where bullet proof.
 The guy wasnt working there for very long afterwards, no at the next workshop either from what I heard.

I have been around small petrol engines and bigger diesel lumps in my time but rightly thought "don't do it yourself.......get a professional"!!! Yeah, right......!!!
 Like you messed with engines/ design/ building/ dialling in for many decades etc after the above  source the manufactures full service and repair manual and do my own service...
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote bricker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2017 at 6:25pm
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Sit. Rep. Update:
Dropped boat back to shop.........very apologetic. It transpires they had fitted the wrong thermostats :(
They gave it a good run out on Karapiro with no issues........but it still doesn't sit easy with me, to be honest. I'll be doing my own servicing from now on.

Thanks for your thoughts and advice - it's never easy when you set out in a new world with potential for a multitude of hurdles. Much appreciated!!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2017 at 7:03pm
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If going to do your own servicing get a full manufactures service repair manual for THAT model.
 They are not cheap new
 There are a few things like timing checks that are not as simple as one would think...
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Betty Boop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2017 at 7:23pm
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Good advice Steps. I had the same issue with my 150hp Johnson. I have a factory manual which is invaluable. However two Auckland dealers couldn't sort it until I relocated to Papamoa and Condor Marine spent 18hrs, 4 sea test's and sorted it.......runs like a sewing machine these days.🙂
Last week I joined an Anti-Social support group........They won't talk to me!

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2017 at 9:00am
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I often wonder.. not just marine outboards, building, vehicles.. even WoF inspectors... just when the last time the 'professional' did 2 things..
 1/ pick up the manual
2/ Actually read it.. not flick the pages
 
 Add to that it is these same guys that instruct the new guys on the floor

 And how often do the new guys actually be given the manual and told to sit down read it, anything they dont understand make notes.... (if no notes lots of them, sure sign they havnt read it espec if an outboard.
 Rather than told to sit down read and sign the back to say they have read it and understand it ( modern PC BS 'training)'

 On that basis I strongly believe in this day and age most of the screw ups / errors are not the fault of the young trainee but the fault of the ppl instructing...or more accurately the quality of that instruction.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Durban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2017 at 5:02pm
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Sometimes you can be fooled by the alarm as the VRO is connected in series with one of the heat sensors i always disconnect the heat sensors and find out if it is the VRO .a cheaper option is to run the motor without the VRO mix the fuel 50:1 then you are guaranteed the motor is getting oil .
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote quattro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2017 at 10:13pm
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It amazes me how much trouble some so called professionals have with such a basic engine. Also dont remove the vro, its a great system
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 10:35am
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Also dont remove the vro, its a great system

 
Totally agree, even thr older versions are reliable.
 Did a lot investigation asking question some time back on this.
 Turns out the VRO was /is common to  'blamed ' for failures.. broken rings , lack lube etc.
When the failed, and not failed components where very closely checked, if the VRO had been the fault then other cylinders would also have shown signs on lube issues, when they never did.
 Also going on which cylinder(s) fail, how they fail, close inspection of plugs, chamber , deposits, one can determine causes extremely accurate. It is very surprising when deeper  forensic inspection is used, just what comes to light.
 Again something very few 'professionals' use or even have a basic magnifying glass or low power microscope in the tool box or workshop.

This sort of stuff picked up many yrs (decades) ago when designed and had assembled at the machine shop, rather an expensive SB chevy engine.. failed in the 1st 20 mins... They reconed was due to over advance and lean burn as cam/ rings bedded in.
 I knew very different.. it was fired on LPG (as where ALL Chevy engines in the day)_ therefore naturally rich, and rich lean , heat etc works opposite on LPG, and the advance starts so low, for lpg, the dizzy vacuum advance canister cant be moved to over advance due to valley cover...
 
So we sent everything off to a engine forensic lab.. and was fortunate to spend many hrs listening watching and been shown lot stuff... having a chemistry and some metology background.
All sorts of stuff like checking alloy crystals in surface tops of pistons/ walls, and composition of fuel deposits.
 And most of these 'tests' are not complex by any means.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Durban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 11:06am
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You have advantages and disadvantages my 1970 v4 has been running since 1970 and is still in perfect running order and never came out with a vro .I know of motors that have seized due to the vro not working and the alarm never went off .its a personal choice .
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 3:22pm
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 With due respect....
I know of motors that have seized due to the vro not working and the alarm never went off

This is what I have been talking about in the above post..
 What are the chances of the VRO faulty, and the sensors faulty at the same time on a maintained/  serviced engine... ?
and that ALL the cylinders seized, not a couple.. or at least ALL show signs of seizing, bent piston skirts etc...if VRO  or just run it without the tank full... which that sensor goes off way before the oil runs out... and thats faulty it sets off the buzzer.
And to seize not the VRO sensor but the temp sensors must also be faulty...
 So have to have a lot of faulty stuff before even considering a VRO.
 If it is the buzzer thats faulty, that goes off at the check sequence if it is.. only way to stop that is turn ign off or disconnect it.

 Not only where the guys who designed the VRO where on to it in its simplicity of operation,  the guys who figured out the sensors , how they work, wired,  the ign sequence check, and how check, right down to the self faulting buzzer.

 I would lay odds the guys who maintained the VRO caused the seizing, never mentioned or considered the sensor and sequence , nor bother to measure the skirts in the other cylinders...maybe cause only one cylinder seized, and that will not be because of VRO.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote quattro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 4:04pm
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Alot of the failures I have seen that have been slammed on the vro is because the oil tank has water in it, perished hoses, water in the fuel, blocked carbs
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Lordgoose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2021 at 8:34am
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Hi.
I have one of these.
My mechanic did not attach the oil to the oil pump when I took it in to be fixed.
Now it needs $3000 work.

Does anyone know the cost if purchasing one? Ie replacement cost.
The mechanic and I don't agree on this.

Dispute tribunal pending.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2021 at 9:28am
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1st old post..
Alot of the failures I have seen that have been slammed on the vro is because the oil tank has water in it

 Get water in the tank and the oil level warning sensor shorts out and goes off..

Does anyone know the cost if purchasing one? Ie replacement cost.
The mechanic and I don't agree on this.

Depends very much on hrs, service records, and age.
 I solded my 2004 115  a couple yrs back for $7k.. low hrs full service record etc.
Picked up a 2001 150 very low hrs 1 owner from new, full service record $9k
 Most listed prices are on the high side, anything that is good condition and fairly priced moves pretty quickly..
And its no good going off asking prices.


My mechanic did not attach the oil to the oil pump when I took it in to be fixed.

When I have had the oil lines disconnected, and was advised by a very knowledgeable and reputable outboard motor workshop manager on this..
Always fire up on a pre mix...even thu have bleed the lines with the bulb.. Mark the tank, and let run.. which would be their tank test run, and note if the oil level has dropped slightly. If has then switch to the non pre mixed tank fuel.

Also , the workshops insurance should cover all this...??

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MikeAqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2021 at 3:35pm
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There is good write up on the VRO system here

One problem that can occur, and I experienced with mine: Perforation of the yellow diaphragm in the picture.  This allows oil to dribble into the upper fuel chamber.
(yes, we did the the vacuum and airtightness test recommended and both engines passed).

My engines were averaging 30:1 as result (should be much less with a VRO - that's the whole idea).  I had clouds of smoke, hard starting, oily carbs, sooty plugs.

Two new pumps would have been very expensive ($500 USD ea from memory).  So I disconnected the oil system, removed the VROs, disconnected the no oil alarm and replaced with two aftermarket fuel only pumps.  Yes. that's right - so many people remove VROs, there are aftermarket, bolt on petrol only replacement pumps.  Obviously from that point on I ran 50:1 premix.

Guess what ... all the issues disappeared and I gained two storage compartments on the boat (where the oil tanks used to be).  That was ~5 years ago and I've never looked back.  Engines start easy and run all day without issues.


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