$200 fines for kayaks - Your voice needed!

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    Posted: 08 Mar 2009 at 1:34pm
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Reposted from http://www.kayakfishingnz.com
Original post by "Kitsune"

#################################################
Hi - all fellow kayak fishermen.

The Auckland Regional Authority is introducing a $200 fines for infringements to the ARC Safety Bylaw 2008 and this affects us kayakers from Thames to Kawau from 200 meters off shore to 12 miles out. The ARC safety Bylaw rule 2.17 seriously affects us!
*** See the issues on www.kayaker.org.nz (a page from concerned kayakers)

This means if you are hit you will almost always be at fault and could also be sued by other boaties. You may need to take out marine third party insurance. It is opposed to the International Collision Regulations and is a draconian measure.

ARC introduced the bylaw without ANY consultation with kayakers. Kayakers have forced a review and many kayaking groups have agreed on a common submission that must be into the ARC by 4.30 March 16. The issues are addressed on the web page above. There is also a public consultation meeting Monday 9 March (Tomorrow - HLD) at the Auckland Marine Rescue Centre Room 1 at 5pm.
*** The most important thing is get the written submission to the Harbourmaster or ARC in time
Thanks heaps

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The Dreaded Shark-Eating Man!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Keith C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2009 at 3:38pm
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Originally posted by Hairy Little Dwarf Hairy Little Dwarf wrote:


ARC introduced the bylaw without ANY consultation with kayakers.
Yes, the wording may not be good but the intent surely is!
 
The by-law was publicised and public opinion called for. That includes yakkers. I was at the submissions to the ARC on the bill and present when this amendment was discussed. As it was a public bill, it covered more than those aspects relevant to kayakers. When this bill was proposed, I did highlight it in this forum.
 
Whilst I understand the concern now being raised about the bill, it was not done without consultation to the general public including yakkers. And no, I don't work for ARC or any other government institution.  
Travel back in a westerly direction on the southern side of Rangi around or after dusk and have a look at the number of kayakers who are not visible. (And I am not excluding those boaties who also exhibit the same behaviour but the proximity to the water of the yakkers makes it even more dangerous to both parties!).
 
I would point out that some of the findings on colours and visibility were displayed at the bylaw discussion for those present. I woudl suggest asking ARC for thses findings as these will highlight the rationale behind the by-law (not the wording!).
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote fisho111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2009 at 8:25pm
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This law is a load bull **** and red tape i feel as there is to many boaties that do not a obey the ARC rules ie 5 knots within 50 metres of another boat etc I support oyr fight to the ARC.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2009 at 10:16pm
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I have said this before.   It does not matter who is at fault in a collition kayakers always come off worse.    Therefore we need to make sure that we are as visible as possible.   Any fool who does not get this simple fact really deserves a $200 fine and a kick up the farce to drive this message home.    Thank the ARA for doing something to protect fools from themselves.
 
Rainbow
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Hairy Little Dwarf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2009 at 10:46pm
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I was going to stay out of this other than reposting the original from Kitsune

The key points of contention are (according to the webpage that Kitsune links to)
That no kayaker (or other vessel for that matter - rowing boats are apparently excluded?) can ENSURE they are visible.  They can take all practical steps, but "ensure"?
 In the hands of a legal, if a yakker was hit, all the boatie has to say is that he didn't see them...

My nitpick is that surely it must lie in the lap of the faster vessel to "maintain a lookout at all times" for kayaks, logs, channel markers...  I will state here that I am talking about lit or otherwise resonably visible yaks - not loons in black kayaks without lights cos they are macho..

I wear so much dayglow, in my yellow yak, with the red and reflective paddles and a years supply of SOLAS tape, that aircraft navigate using me.
I've had a boat motor over from waaay off "to see what you were"....And with all this, I've had to take serious evasive action more than once -  Including a broadcast on 16 to the "red boat on collision course with yellow kayak at Te Puna Inlet"  I was that concerned and wanted evidence out there just in case my worst fears were realised.  Fortunately with much visible splashing of paddles as I positioned for escape, he saw me and veered away at same throttle missing me by 20m.

If he had hit me - I obviously hadn't "ensured" visibility

It needs re-wording, I have no problems with getting the less responsible yakkers up to speed with what should be mandatory kit.  PFD's would be a startErmm

But it goes both ways, and I hope the tinnies that cream along at night with no lights, the boats that cut corners at headlands at more than 5kn only 30m offshore, not to mention the proximity breaches at speed.....get some enforcement as well.







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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Naki man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2009 at 10:52pm
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Hear what you are saying there Rainbow, but how do we protect ourselves from the fool boaties (no I'm not saying that all boaties are fools, but there are some right FU^(^%^ out there) I've been on a local Charter -  He stood with his back to where he was going, while his boat carried on it's merry way and he proceeded to tell us how unsafe Kayakers were because they couldn't be seen. Unless he's got eyes in the back of his Fu&^%en head, then he wouldn't have seen Kayaker if it flashed in 10 foot neon lights let alone another boat, a jet skier, a log, a whale or anything else. Then theres the ones that think they know you (or just do it to piss you off) and proceed to do donuts around you. We can only do so much to protect ourselves against idiots. There needs to be big fines for boaties that carry on this way as they have potential to do damage to alot more than just Kayakers.
By the way, how many boaties drowned this year through stupidity - drinking piss and no life jackets.
On the other hand there are some real decent boaties out there that pop over to check that you are OK, before heading back to shore
Yes we need rules to protect the idiot Yakers (yes they are out there) but we also need rules and fines for the idiot boaties. These rules/fines shouldn't be one sided. We are ending up with us verses them. There is enough water for us all and we need to work together.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2009 at 6:54am
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This is BS.
 
I have had boats rocket 20m past me on flat seas in broad daylight who stops those
C$%TS!!
I am going to be fitting lights and carry a small torch for my dawn/dusk trips glowing tape etc won't do crap as there is'nt enough light on the sea or on most vessels to reflect it.
Look at the accident/drowning stats this year boaties by far come out the worse. And for my money you will find just as many yakkers in the Rangi channel or Whangaparaoa as boaties now and man to man the yakker is far more safety driven I have'nt seen a fellow yakker without a PFD yet and I would tell them off if I did.
  
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Keith C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2009 at 7:03am
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Originally posted by Naki man Naki man wrote:

Hear what you are saying there Rainbow, but how do we protect ourselves from the fool boaties.
... These rules/fines shouldn't be one sided....
There is enough water for us all and we need to work together.
I fully agree and endorse those sentiments. I would have no issue if the same rules were to apply to all craft.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Hairy Little Dwarf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2009 at 11:48am
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Do I comply or not? LOL
This is original and not photoshopped BTW - Taken at King of the Harbour comp about a month ago.


These are the guys that need attention:


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Snuffit. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2009 at 11:53am
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Downloaded, filled in and posted the submission from  www.kayaker.org.nz , so damn easy, no excuse for anyone not to really.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote CQ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2009 at 12:36pm
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I write as a Council employee (not ARC) who manages bylaws and submission processes.  I won't specifically comment on ARC's bylaw, but would like to give you some submission tips to support the cause (because I do support the cause).

While the bylaw may seem unreasonable and annoying - don't let this show in your submission - don't vent your spleen at them.  They are human, and if you p*** them off then they can turn against you.
 
So don't write things like: "The Bylaw has been carefully written to exclude oared craft such as row boats because of the political fallout."  Come from the standpoint that they have written the bylaw out of good intentions - no matter what you think or know about backroom politics.
 
Set out why you think their suggestion is not the optimal solution calmly and rationally.  Present your desired alternative calmly and rationally.  Provide good supporting evidence such as the International Safety Collision Regulations.
 
My experience has been that when a submitter provides a sensible solution in a collaborative and cooperative way, then councillors are likely to pick up on it.  Having said that - our political system can be a crock - so we can never assume that reason will prevail.  However if you have gone in with a mature and reasonable approach then you have a better shot at winning.
 
The standard submission from http://www.kayaker.org.nz/ is good, and if you have little time available then do use it.  BUT...petition style submissions (standard text that lots of people print and submit) have less impact than individually crafted submissions.  So while it is more work to write your own submission, it is worth it.  Even if you just take what the standard one says and put it in your own (calm and rational) words!
 
Good luck people.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kitsune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2009 at 2:14pm
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Thank you for this advice.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Keith C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2009 at 4:24pm
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Originally posted by Hairy Little Dwarf Hairy Little Dwarf wrote:

Do I comply or not? LOL
Was that 5 November, HLD? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Hairy Little Dwarf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2009 at 4:35pm
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Nah - Just sellotaped some fragments of the MIR station I found washed up on the beach.

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I Liken us to cyclists on the road, where other vehicles/vessels have "right of weight" at all times, and yep we will always come off worse. We can only do so much to protect ourselves from the idiots, and like HLD I would like to think I am well visible to other vessels (I'm not quite the mossie attractant that he is but...) Like others here I have had a similar experience of a near miss a few weeks ago that gave me sphincter fibrillation - and I'm sorry but I don't know what else I can do to minimise the risk other than staying home and watching my old Geoff Thomas videos (na thats pushing it a bit far!) I'm sure that fairness in the wording is all we can ask for, it has to change!     
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote fishkiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2009 at 4:58pm
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jjust gives boaties a good excuse if there on the piss and not whatchen were there going thats all its all bs
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2009 at 6:56pm
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I see nothing wrong with the proposed bylaw.    If we keep nitpicking we will surely end up with a very detailed list of "must haves" such as so many square cm of yellow/orange clothing,  a white light of so much candle power mounted so many mms above water level,  a narrow range of permissable hull colours, no black paddle blades etc, etc.   I hope you get my drift.
I too have been in the public service and know that the best way to save one's arse is to cover every possibility with rules.   Just look at the rafts of safety regs that popped up after Cave Creek.
Rainbow
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2009 at 7:56pm
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Hows this for a problem solver every kayak sold must come with a light fitted simple really.
 
Its unfortunate its comes down to needing a frickin bylaw. Like fishkiller said if a pisshesd boatie hits ya visible or not he is hardly gonna pull over and say sorry is he? If someone is on autopilot and runs into ya then what?
We can't exactly chase em down can we. Anyway what brought up the need for this anyho what happened and where?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Badfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2009 at 8:32pm
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Originally posted by Hairy Little Dwarf Hairy Little Dwarf wrote:



Maaaate your kayak looks like a super faz disco man! I should take a pic of my disco ball kayak like that. I've got something like 4m of reflective tape on my kayak, flag, rods, clothing etc, but not seen in glowing like that.

Back to the issue at hand tho, the people that think we're being pedantic about something so small as the wording of the by laws, need to realize that the COLREGS are followed to the last little detail when it comes to prosecution of boaties (and I mean us in the wider meaning of the term) so something like a by-law that undermines the collision regulations needs to be fixed asap.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote GingaMatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2009 at 8:35pm
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Aint that the truth Muppet! I had a guy ay work today tell me that Kayaks should be Band from Saltwater fishing because we are dangerous!! you could imagine where that conversation went... Down hill for him ill tell you that!!. Yes there are people out there who need to brighten up a bit, but whos to blame there. Well im in, Signed and sent!!

Maybe Steve and Shamus could give a few pointers 2moro night!!
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