Drag when trolling

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    Posted: 26 Jan 2021 at 9:33pm
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What amount of drag are people using when trolling for the hook up? Light, medium or even pre set at a certain weight??

Do you also run different tensions for different lures, target species or positions in the spread? 

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For a long time the experts recommended setting the drag to 1/3rd of the line strength at strike.  Peter Pakula now says 1/3rd line strength should be the minimum.


Here is another vid (older) from PP where he discusses how to set the drag on lever drag reels.


There are many other articles and vids available on the internet by PP.  All worth a read imo.  Others may have differing views.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote terrafish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2021 at 10:18pm
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This is allways an interesting one mate.
The way I was taught was light drag, and when i say light i mean just enough for it to not overrun on a hard aggressive bite, and will still run out if dropped or knocked out. 5 secs and smoothly slide up drag to strike. The 5secs just allows the fish to turn away and present a better op of letting the hook find a bit of real estate to settle into!
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Depends a lot on hooks. I would think 8kg of drag on  light gauge hooks would straighten them out real quick. I run about 3kg or so but no more. Big strong hooks maybe go to a third of line weight, but my marlin expertise is next to nil.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote terrafish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2021 at 1:15am
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I might be wrong fish addict and smudge, but I think what mayhem is asking is, where is the drag set while on the troll, and waiting for the bite.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2021 at 6:22am
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Yes I that's what he's asking I think I got the wrong end of the stick. And I meant 5. Sharpen up Smudge! I'd set the drags a little harder than just enough to stop the lure taking line for light gauge hooks at least
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5kg drag for me on strike regardless of what hooks I'm running.
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Anyone got advice for this part of the post?
 
Do you also run different tensions for different lures, target species or positions in the spread? 
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Here's another one for y'all.

When running a squid nation it creates a lot of drag. My mate wants to keep drag the same. By my thinking if the sn is dragging out 3kg and the drag is set to 5kg then when we get a hit the actual strength against the hook will be 2kg.
They also think that the fish will st the hook due to the drag of the sn which by my thinking would only be 3kg at 7knots but I suppose would be more if the fish is hauling ass straight away from boat.

I hit up a maths mate who said that would be right but he isn't a fisho.
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Originally posted by Mayhem_Fishing Mayhem_Fishing wrote:

..Do you also run different tensions for different lures, target species or positions in the spread?
I don't set different tensions for different lures or positions in the spread.  The tension or drag setting is set according to the line strength.    If you were using the old 1/3 drag rule that would be:
10kg line - 3.3kg of drag at strike
15kg line - 5kg of drag at strike
24kg line - 8kg of drag at strike etc
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Originally posted by Parua Brae Parua Brae wrote:

Here's another one for y'all.

When running a squid nation it creates a lot of drag. My mate wants to keep drag the same. By my thinking if the sn is dragging out 3kg and the drag is set to 5kg then when we get a hit the actual strength against the hook will be 2kg.
They also think that the fish will st the hook due to the drag of the sn which by my thinking would only be 3kg at 7knots but I suppose would be more if the fish is hauling ass straight away from boat.

I hit up a maths mate who said that would be right but he isn't a fisho.

You need to disregard the drag created by the lure.  When a fish grabs the lure it is pulling against the drag set on the reel.  In the example you have given (drag at 5kg) the following happens.  When more than 5kg of force is exerted at the hook the spool will start to loose line. 
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Originally posted by Fish Addict Fish Addict wrote:

You need to disregard the drag created by the lure.  When a fish grabs the lure it is pulling against the drag set on the reel.   

Only briefly, when the lure is stationary, and not exerting any drag of its own. PB got it right - at the instant of the strike, the lure drag is subtracted from the reel drag (lure exerts 3kg, marlin 2kg, reel set to 5kg loses line)

In the next few seconds, as the lure slows to a stop, its drag reduces to 0 & the marlin is now pulling the full 5kg.

When the marlin takes off, and drags the lure (backwards) through the water, the lure drag is added to the reel drag. Similar to the principal behind backing off the drag when you have several hundred metres of line out, when the friction of the line going through the water can add several kgs of extra drag, felt at the fish end.

If the marlin is swimming faster than the boat was trolling, the drag will be greater too. In the case of the lure, the hooks & trace will have to withstand the extra drag, but the mainline (and anything above the lure) won't. In the case of a lot of line out, drag increases progressively through the mainline as well. 


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Fish Addict Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2021 at 12:19am
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Responding to waynorth.  My comments in red.

Only briefly, when the lure is stationary, and not exerting any drag. PB got it right - at the instant of the strike, the lure drag is subtracted from the reel drag (lure exerts 3kg, marlin 2kg, reel set to 5kg loses line)

Firstly I don't believe the lure is ever stationary.  I believe at the instant of the strike (when the fish takes hold of the lure) the lures drag / resistant force effectively becomes zero.  We are talking fractions of a second here so in practical terms perhaps this discussion is nothing more than semantics.

If I understand correctly the purpose of PB's post it was to question whether the drag setting of the reel should be increased when towing lures that offer more resistance than others.  In short my opinion would be no.

In the next few seconds, as the lure slows to a stop, its drag reduces to 0 & the marlin is now pulling the full 5kg.

The lures drag / resistant force ceases the moment the fish takes hold of the lure, but more semantics.

When the marlin takes off, and drags the lure (backwards) through the water, the lure drag is added to the reel drag.

I think you are confusing force with reel drag.  The fish can't add drag to the reel drag.  If the fish and trailing lure exerts more force than the drag setting line will come off the reel.

Similar to the principal behind backing off the drag when you have several hundred metres of line out, when the friction of the line going through the water can add several kgs of extra drag, felt at the fish end.

Agree in principle.  The belly in the line can increase the force or resistance over a portion of the line which can result in the line breaking.

If the marlin is swimming faster than the boat was trolling, the drag will be greater too. In the case of the lure, the hooks & trace will have to withstand the extra drag, but the mainline (and anything above the lure) won't.

I'm not sure exactly what you are saying here?

In the case of a lot of line out, drag increases progressively through the mainline as well.

I think you are referring to the fact that the reels drag pressure increases as the spool diameter decreases, if so I agree.

 

We are mostly on the same page (I think) despite the use of different terminology.


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Apologies first to MF for the hijacking of his topic - the tangent we have headed off along is interesting though, & if you are a new game fisher the info may be useful.

Back to your original question first. I'm old school and use heavy gauge hooks/leaders/drags, and my strike drag is set a few kgs less than fighting drag to allow for the brief startup inertia of the spool, and overcome the initial 'stickiness' of the stationary drag. With a 24kg rig, strike will be about 5kg, then quickly going to 8kg to fight the fish. 

Even with heavy gear, some like to use minimum drag - just enough to prevent line from creeping off the reel - so the fish can turn away with the lure before the angler puts the drag up to set the hook. It obviously works for them, and may work well for you.

Light gauge has become popular and successful, and although I don't fish that way it makes sense that the strike and fight settings must be lower. 

The only times I use a lower strike drag due to rod position would be if the rod holder wasn't that robust - I sometimes run a shotgun from a rod holder on my bait board for example. You might want to ease it off a bit if you run lures from the rocket launcher too. Species wise, skippies have soft mouths, but other than catching them for bait my drag settings for all other target species are roughly 1/4 line class for the strike, going up to 1/3 for the fight.

Right - back to the tangent. Wink   
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote waynorth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2021 at 10:23am
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Originally posted by Fish Addict Fish Addict wrote:

 We are mostly on the same page (I think) despite the use of different terminology.

Hmm. We're close FA - same subject, same chapter, different author.

Firstly I don't believe the lure is ever stationary.  I believe at the instant of the strike (when the fish takes hold of the lure) the lures drag / resistant force effectively becomes zero.  We are talking fractions of a second here so in practical terms perhaps this discussion is nothing more than semantics.

Can't agree with you there on the physics - the lure really does (briefly) stop and water resistance drag drops to zero, before increasing again as the fish bolts. Not quite semantics, but yes for practical purposes it is probably of limited relevance.

If I understand correctly the purpose of PB's post it was to question whether the drag setting of the reel should be increased when towing lures that offer more resistance than others.  In short my opinion would be no.

and I agree.

The lures drag / resistant force ceases the moment the fish takes hold of the lure, 

Well - no it doesn't. It ceases when the fish stops the lures progress through the water, and restarts when the fish starts towing the lure. OK - lets call this one semantics, although driving the hook home with a heavy drag at the instant of the strike is a well established and (for many) effective way of fishing. The point is that at the instant of the strike, the lure drag is subtracted from the reel drag

I think you are confusing force with reel drag.  The fish can't add drag to the reel drag.  If the fish and trailing lure exerts more force than the drag setting line will come off the reel.

Clumsy wording on my part. No the fish can't add drag to the reel, but the drag the fish feels is the sum of all the drags - reel, lure (+ or -), line friction etc.

Agree in principle.  The belly in the line can increase the force or resistance over a portion of the line which can result in the line breaking.

Yes, but its not just a belly in the line that will do that. Just the friction of several hundred metres of line being dragged in a straight line can add several kgs of drag, even with nothing tied to the end. Anyone who has been spooled and snapped their mainline at the double knows this well. Been there, done that Cry

I'm not sure exactly what you are saying here?

Drag/velocity relationships are a complicated subject, but as velocity increases, so does drag. Sometimes the relationship is linear (double the speed, double the drag) but sometimes the drag increases by the square of the velocity. I'm getting out of my depth here, but even if it is just a linear progression, that 3kg drag from the lure quickly becomes 6kg if the fish takes off at double the boat's trolling speed. The extra is not transferred to the mainline, but is felt by the leader and hook, so becomes relevant if using lighter gauge hooks.

I think you are referring to the fact that the reels drag pressure increases as the spool diameter decreases, if so I agree.

I was actually referring to the friction of the line in the water, but yes the reducing lever length as the spool empties also requires more force to overcome the same drag setting. I have no idea how to quantify that, but I'm sure engineers have calculated it.


Hey MF - why don't you ask us an easy one next time, like 'should I use single or double hooks' LOL 


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Fish Addict Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2021 at 4:11pm
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Originally posted by waynorth waynorth wrote:

Originally posted by Fish Addict Fish Addict wrote:

... Firstly I don't believe the lure is ever stationary.  I believe at the instant of the strike (when the fish takes hold of the lure) the lures drag / resistant force effectively becomes zero.  We are talking fractions of a second here so in practical terms perhaps this discussion is nothing more than semantics...
Can't agree with you there on the physics - the lure really does (briefly) stop and water resistance drag drops to zero, before increasing again as the fish bolts. Not quite semantics, but yes for practical purposes it is probably of limited relevance.
OK I don't believe that the lure stops, even briefly.  The exception to this would be if the fish was to become stationary.  The scenario I offer is when a blue charges a lure from the side and continues sideways, either to port or starboard with the lure in its mouth; at what time has the lure stopped?

It appears to me that the drag of the lure is absorbed at impact and then overcome / replaced by the greater force being the fish.

 


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote waynorth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2021 at 5:12pm
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Quite right - I'm thinking stripies that sit behind the lure whacking it with their bill until they either get bill hooked or finally bite it. They commonly then slow and either turn to one side or reverse course. Your blue scenario is certainly different - and probably similar to a yellowfin strike - and trying to model the physics of that one beats me.

As we have both acknowledged, we are talking about the limited relevance of the few split seconds of the actual strike here. I'll concede the word 'semantics' because if it isn't correct its close. 

Certainly more relevant is the bit after the instant of the strike, when the fish is pulling the full reel drag, plus any drag from the lure. 

Just out of interest, if a squidnation or similar is exerting that much drag on the fish by itself throughout the fight, is the rig compliant with the IGFA rule about hampering the fighting ability of the fish ? 
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Originally posted by waynorth waynorth wrote:

... Just out of interest, if a squidnation or similar is exerting that much drag on the fish by itself throughout the fight, is the rig compliant with the IGFA rule about hampering the fighting ability of the fish ? 

I'm not familiar with the squid nation lure Parua Brae was referring to.  Perhaps he can provide some info on it.
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Originally posted by Fish Addict Fish Addict wrote:

Originally posted by waynorth waynorth wrote:

... Just out of interest, if a squidnation or similar is exerting that much drag on the fish by itself throughout the fight, is the rig compliant with the IGFA rule about hampering the fighting ability of the fish ? 

I'm not familiar with the squid nation lure Parua Brae was referring to.  Perhaps he can provide some info on it.

Its a teaser bro, some like to tow a teaser or bird in front of a lure.


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Originally posted by Catchelot Catchelot wrote:

Its a teaser bro, some like to tow a teaser or bird in front of a lure.


Thanks for the clarification Al.
I recall discussion on here years ago about the legalities of towing an inline bird or the like in front of a lure.
 


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