Can't get a new outboard in BoP?

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2021 at 10:50am
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Titanium
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The boat's an older (heavier lay up) Challenger 565 but goes about 1800kg. She's a heavy girl but I'm grateful for that when the going gets a bit rough. Max speed is 30 knots at WOT (6000rpm)

With the 115hp on it?
35mph
That gives around to 1600kg gross weight on the water.
The 'heavy' glass cabin boats around that size weight in around the 1300/1400 kg.

Assuming number are correct, it would be very safe to assume that the engine is set too deep in the water...
Assuming data correct and real gross weight on the water is around 1350/1400, then the engine would be about 1 1/2 to 2 notches down, which the extra drag will be the equivalent of an extra 200kg on board.
 And will be 'sucking ' a heap of reserve power at when hit any chop.

With 1400 gross weight, 115 on the back WoT will be around 38 mph

Most of the older cabin boats around the 5.2 /5.6m gross weight in around the  1100 to 1400kg max.
Gross weight is hull gear, fuel , fittings , bins, and people... everything ..
 An old 5.5 sea nymph fully loaded 3 ppl comes in around the 1250kg.

Engine right height, propped for around 5 to 6% slip and within the manufactures specs
130 hp
Assuming 1400kg (and I think that maybe 75/100kg heavy) engine right height, WoT around middle of manufactures rpm spec..(normal use load)  Would have a WoT around 42/43 mph .. nicely powered for good chop hull performance, and a nice cruise around 32/33 mph, even in bit of chop and still comfortable.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Angler Management Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2021 at 12:24pm
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No doubt you have a great deal more knowledge than me around these things. The boat gross weight is a bit of a guess based on a weigh bridge measure on the trailer, with one person on board, it weighed in at 2150kg. It's always felt like a great deal of weight to have on a single axle braked trailer and in truth, it has split the axle through the middle once in the past and I had to have it replaced. The Challenger stern is also inclined which meant I had to have a wedge fitted under the outboard to give me enough trim downwards and yes, it is set quite low down and is a 25" leg. The ride has always been 'ok' but has always felt near it's limit? For instance, if I have a 100kg passenger that is sitting on the transom, it will really struggle to get onto the plane. I have to get them to walk forward, get it planing and then all is well. This hull is very different to the Challenger 550. It has 200mm more beam and it comes out of exactly the same mould that is now the Challenger 595, they have added an extended bowsprit now.
All that said, when I purchased the boat it had a Mariner 115 2 stroke on it and that performed worse than the F115. I'd love to have your understanding of the finer details of boat set ups, for me there always seem to be so many variables? Boat loading, conditions, prop diameter and pitch, engine height, trim, twin battery set ups inside the portafino. I have thought about trim tabs but figured they might increase drag and make matters worse? I had previously fitted one of those outboard fins to my Mariner at the time which did help in 'getting out of the hole'. Your feedback is appreciated. Cheers.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote old timer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2021 at 10:18pm
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We went through this a few years ago. We wanted a bit more grunt for pulling up single water skiers. Boat is a Sea nymph 556.
We had a 115 and went to 150 (max rating for boat).
Certainly good at going forward now and power to burn which is nice.
Problem is now the transom sits fairly low in the water and reversing performance is pretty poor. Steering almost non assistant unless you give it heaps but then buries transom even more.
Maybe the 130 or 140 (not sure if they still do these. I suspect not) may have been enough as all the same block. Hard to say without fitting the other motor which would be an expensive exercise
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Snapper12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2021 at 11:30pm
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Hi Mate
They do sell Yamaha and Mercury.

Send him a message on his mobile and ask him to call you.
I will follow up with him tommorow morning .
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Angler Management Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2021 at 6:42am
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Thanks. You have described exactly what I fear happening to mine if I go up too much in weight, looking for more power. It's a balancing act between the whole power to weight thing eh? This is turning into a very interesting exercise and the feedback from members on here has been both appreciated and very useful. The set backs I have had in trying to find an F130 to have fitted have given me time to re-think and look at some of the information available rather than being completely (and blindly) brand loyal. I've started to read some of the reviews from new Yamaha owners who have complained of problems and the lack of support from Yamaha and also issues with warranties being honoured (quite scary!) Anyway, long story short, I am also going to check out the Suzuki 140 4 stroke! Great reviews, great warranty, their reliability, quietness and a chance to add 25hp while only adding 8kgs. Not to mention about $3k cheaper! I have to consider this motor so I am going to investigate with the local dealer.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Angler Management Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2021 at 6:45am
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Yes, he did get back to me and is happy to supply a Yamaha but he doesn't have one in stock and is going to have to rely on new supply from Yamaha NZ which is going to put him in the same predicament as a lot of suppliers I have spoken to in that there are no new motors to be had until the end of March / beginning of April at the earliest.
Thanks for your help though.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote DIY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2021 at 7:55am
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I have a 2019 Suzuki DF140 and can’t rate it highly enough. I got it from Active Outboards in Glen Eden. Jason is extremely helpful and very knowledgeable. I realise you are in Tauranga I think but worth a phone call.
Oh what a smasher - two eggs and a rasher!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote DIY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2021 at 8:02am
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The new Suzuki 140 is a new model and is fly-by-wire.
Oh what a smasher - two eggs and a rasher!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote bazza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2021 at 8:42am
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Titanium
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Maybe it is a long shot but give Rodgers Boat Shop in Albany a call ...
they have a great reputation for customer service so reckon if anyone can source what you are looking for then they would be able to ... & yes they are accredited Yammy dealers.

Good luck & for the record if I was in the market for a new motor/s than my choice would be evenly split between a Yamaha or Honda.

May be wrong but cannot see any reference as to if you are favouring
a 2 or a 4 stroke.

When you cry, feel pain or sadness, no one notices your sorrow .... BUT
fart just ONE time !!!!!!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2021 at 9:50am
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Titanium
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AM back to your post /description above.
 You have a 25" leg on a 20" transom...
Which makes the prop and cav plate way too deep.
 And althu some of the effects are similar to others .. assuming their height is correct, the reasons are very different.

You cant source a engine for a while...
Actually fixing the issue.. lifting the motor to where it and the hull are designed to work at together will make a completely new boat.. I emphasis .. completely

Bottom line 25" 0n a 20" transom will not , will never work by messing wirh angles  etc
 Trim tabs will help a little, but not worth doing the capital investment
A Foils may also help but will not be worth the effort...And each of the above will just add to fuel bill

ONLY economic and practical fixes fix
 
is increasing transom height
 or a engine jack
Transome height..
Can get it rebuilt..expensive
Can get a wide plate made up that covers the transome below the engine well..and up higher,and back down into the engine well inside...
Engine jack..
these range from around $350 to $700 and more for fully adjustable.. or can make up some yourself out of suitable U sections.

When calc required height it is important that you also factor in the angle of the transom.. if you do not then you will not get correct height.. even if adjustable.

Once you have engine height correct, all .. everyone of your issues, loading , weights  economy, hole shot will evaporate.
From there it will just be selecting a ball park prop and have a totally new well performing boat.

There are more detailed instruction in old threads on engine jacks, measurements,  etc.
If any questions please ask anyway
I only hit the web once a day, brefly most days

PS when we repowered our 5.5m 1250 gross weight commander from min well powered 115hp to intended well powered V6 140hp.. my issue was the engine leg...to source a late model 20" is like hens teeth on mars.
 Took 3 yrs... eventually ending up with a far heavier V6 150hp 2s
The only , and not an issue, is at anchor sits a couple inches deeper in the water.
If a boat around this sized hull, height correct and prop in ball park well powered, be it min well powered, engine  to very well powered, putting an extra 20L container of water near the stern, or a person sitting back there will make no to very little noticeable difference to what the hull does .. hole shot to economy to performance in chop etc.

 As to all the mainline  brands.. merc, suzi, mariner, yammy, honda etc. new engines have yet to sort their long term issues.
 Long term issues on older models are in most cases sorted.. If me , I would buy ex my local workshop that I have had yrs of service and faith in. If not available, then go a little further afield , but still in easy transportable distance.

And if nothing, since what you have is around min well powered I would be engine jack/ transom, with chances being very likely  not bothering to re power...Wink

PS if you got advice to do stuff like change engine angles to fix the issue of 25" leg on 20" transom.. well I shake my head in total astonishment it would even be mentioned over actually fixing such a major ,core issue  problem... or as a temp  patch up fix.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Angler Management Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2021 at 1:53pm
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I'm not sure where you got the idea that I have a 20" transom?
The boat came from the manufacturer with a Mariner 25" and when I upgraded it was to the F115 25".
As soon as I figure out how, I will attach some pictures that will show you that the cavity plate is still slightly above the bottom of the hull when the motor is approximately vertical and the measurement from the top of the transom to the cavity plate is about 635mm (25") and this is with the motor set as low as it will go.
The wedge plate was added after I first fitted the F115, when I found that I could not trim it low enough. The local dealer who knows Challengers well advised that they often require the wedge so that you have more downward trim available. Prior, I had to have it trimmed down as far as it would go and if I lifted it the smallest amount, it would cavitate. I hope this makes sense?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Angler Management Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2021 at 2:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Angler Management Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2021 at 12:08am
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Thanks Scott,
Definitely makes me think I am making the right decision!
Cheers,
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2021 at 10:21am
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Titanium
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I'm not sure where you got the idea that I have a 20" transom?
Reading back, and weight power discrepancies..

Does that model of boat have a different from norm 12 deg angle from the line of the keel to the angle of the stern/ pod mounting?

 So get this right..
So your cavitation plate on the yammie is slightly, 12 to 25mm above a straight edge placed along the line of the keel?

Which would be pretty much ball park if the engine is mounted directly to transome.. not on a jack plate or pod further out from the the end of the hull keel.

Correct height
for general use for most brands , including yammie, is at normal load, at normal to fast cruise speed on flat water at best trim for that speed will the water hard up under the cav plate with only a few droplets of water (like condensation running down a window on a frosty morning)

The further the engine is mounted from the end of the keel the higher  the motor will be mounted due to the elliptical curve the surface of the water makes as it comes out from under the keel.
Which makes the old addage of X inches out should be Y inches above the hull keel line quite inaccrurate the further the distance out the engine is... or once on mounts on a jack plate or pod.

Assuming , have found surprisingly several times ppl dont actually know how to use trim .
 Please do not take offense if you know this stuff..

 Trim is hard down when go to take off, this gets you up over the bow wave easier and quicker.
 As goes over the bow wave then set your cruise rpms approx 200 below intended.
 Now trim up, till just before hear the cavitaion and/ or just before the bow starts to porpoise.. which ever is 1st.
 If you increase your speed, you have to adjust the trim up little more.
 If hit  mild chop or a wake, within reason, you simply trim down, rather than use the throttle.
 Each speed has its own trim as the elliptical curve of the water from under the keel changes the height of the water at the cav plate.

If tend to be in more rougher waters more often.. say going from east coast around islands to out on the west coast swells, then the engine cavitate a little more often and drop of a notch , putting the engine 1/2 to 1 " too low.

PS  Strictly speaking , we are not talking cavitation, which is something quite different but rather ventilation
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Bigfishbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2021 at 10:50am
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You fixation on Yamaha is causing you two issues;
1. Availability- you already know about that
2. You won't fix your problem. You have a heavy boat and you need Torque. Both the 115 and 130 Yamahas only have 1832 ccs, and I believe they only run 13.25" props, which means you get less blade area and more slip.

You really need to be looking at either Suzuki or Mercury with 14 5/8" diameter props, and 2 litre displacement. Honda is another suggestion, but comes with extra weight. 

A 130 is a pimped up 115 and won't deliver the Torque you are seeking. 
www.waikatosportfishing.co.nz
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Angler Management Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2021 at 11:02am
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Hi Steps,
Of course, you are right, I was talking about ventilation previously.
The deadrise on these boats is 18.5 degrees. The wedge put in is to compensate for the quite steep angle of the transom but the mounting plate is still pretty much hard up against the transom at the bottom. It simply changes the angle at which the motor sits and allows me to trim the motor a little further down. I am confident that the motor height to transom (although maybe not perfect) is pretty good. Even if I could drop it another hole, it would definitely be too low and if I raised it one hole, it would definitely be too high. I always trim the boat out once on the plane but as I said before, because of my power to weight problem, the ride is easily compromised by even slightly changing 'chop' and it will lose revs and fall off the plane. This leaves me back to trimming down and revving right back up to reclaim the plane. It gets tedious on a long trip home.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Angler Management Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2021 at 11:12am
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Bob, you are spot on!
The enforced delays in re powering have given me time to research more and to take off my Yamaha 'blinkers'. While I still think that they are the 'coolest' looking outboard, I have to face facts, they simply are not going to deliver what I am looking for.
I am now just waiting for quote details to be finalised before I order either the Suzuki DF140A or (if I can) the DF140BGT which is the latest model that also has the 'fly by wire' option. Anyway, for the addition of only about 8kgs, I will add 25HP and a lot more torque to go with that bigger prop. Talking this stuff over via this forum has been an important part of the research and I appreciate your insights.
Once this saga is all done and dusted, I will report back on the changes I experience. Many thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Bigfishbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2021 at 1:14pm
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Originally posted by Angler Management Angler Management wrote:

Bob, you are spot on!
The enforced delays in re powering have given me time to research more and to take off my Yamaha 'blinkers'. While I still think that they are the 'coolest' looking outboard, I have to face facts, they simply are not going to deliver what I am looking for.
I am now just waiting for quote details to be finalised before I order either the Suzuki DF140A or (if I can) the DF140BGT which is the latest model that also has the 'fly by wire' option. Anyway, for the addition of only about 8kgs, I will add 25HP and a lot more torque to go with that bigger prop. Talking this stuff over via this forum has been an important part of the research and I appreciate your insights.
Once this saga is all done and dusted, I will report back on the changes I experience. Many thanks.

That's great to hear. I was a bit worried for while. The DF140 sounds like a great option, even though it's a pimped up version of the df115, it does seem to have more mid range torque. Only watch out is that on some Ally Hard tops they are said to be horribly noisy. You're a glass cabin cruiser so should be fine.
www.waikatosportfishing.co.nz
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2021 at 9:35am
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Titanium
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BB:
and I believe they
(Yammie) only run 13.25" props, which means you get less blade area and more slip.

 I didnt know that...
Yep to move say 1250/1300 means either around a 13 1/2 " diameter 4 blade, of around 14 1/2 diameter 3 blade.
 A similar issue I had with the 2S V4 johnny, had to go to the 4 blade. Now have a V6, even thu a 20" leg Prop slip/ diameter is no longer a issue.. finding a 20 or 21 pitch 14 1/2 or 14 5/8 2nd hand at fair price is the issue. A fine tune over the current  cupped 14 1/4 21 pitch.

2nd thing that gets sorted after engine height, is establishing your slip number correctly... THEN the pitch.One does more or less randomly select props that get the WoT rpms in the middle of the manufactures rpm range at normal load.
 NOTE: dealers prop to the top of the range because the boat is min loaded, and in theory , add gear couple ppl, fuel and should be around the middle....with correct slip numbers


ride is easily compromised by even slightly changing 'chop' and it will lose revs and fall off the plane. This leaves me back to trimming down and revving right back up to reclaim the plane. It gets tedious on a long trip home.

 
Yep classic under powered.. or maybe at best close to min power.
 OK you are in chop, on the plane trimed up .. stalls on a wave, drop off the plane...need to trim up to get back up..
When in chop you should be trimed down to a point where the bow is more going thru the tops of the chop rather than up over...And if min powered being trimmed down that far should be enough to bit of Throttle  and get backup on the plane...

And going thru chop like this chews thru gas fast...

Now , like outboard manufactures who void warrentees, and dont make permatrims, Im not a fan of permatrims...
 Except where a boat is under min power and having issues because stern has trouble lifting to put on the plane, and stay on plane.
In fact I think this would be the 1st time I have ever suggested to fit... in the mean time till sort the repower

With all the info above, estimates calculations including mine
 What would your total gross weight on the water be?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Angler Management Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2021 at 4:43pm
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Well, I did it. I had the new Suzuki DF140bgt fitted and wow, completely different boat!
Thanks for the insights, especially from 'Bigfishbob' and 'Steps'. It is back with the mechanic temporarily with a couple of (hopefully) minor issues, namely that I think it is now a bit over propped (they selected a 3x14 x21) which is really quick when up to speed and climbs well onto the plane but also I believe is the source of a kind of buzzing / vibration when pushing a bit of sea that won't permit you to get onto the plane. The new multi-function digital gauge also seems to have a 'glitch' or 2 as well. However, I love this motor to bits. It is very quiet, the mid range torque is certainly there and the whole fly by wire thing gives awesome, smooth gear shifting and super throttle response.
Hopefully, with prop sorted and gauge issues diagnosed and fixed, this will be the perfect set up. Thanks again to all who took the time to help and advise.
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