Reccs are taking too much

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Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:






https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://seachange.org.nz/assets/Sea-Change/SWG/Recreational-Fisheries-in-the-Hauraki-Gulf-Bruce-Hartill-NIWA.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjTks2e27HkAhVSg-YKHV0PBHoQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw22hixT5Dq-CkF6BOQH09Yy

While I am not poking a finger at you Croc, there is something seriously wrong with this synopsis. I don't know any details about how this data has been established (what methodologies in 1991?). But this is waaay wrong in the fishing I have been doing since late 80s. Eg instead of catching a few decent puka a summer in a minimal boat, no GPS, or sounder I can now goa whole summer and lucky if I land a pup where I used to catch serious puka. I hate catching pup grouper, but the chances of a bigger one are near infinitesimal. Gurnard? I can now expect to spend a day catching 2-3 sometimes. They were the staple fish in our area for a decade or more from the 90s.
Something not quite right with that data. According to that I should be catching more puka and gurnard than I was in early 90s??
Regards
Alan
[/QUOTE] 

Alan I think you will find that some areas of NZ there probably was some localized depletion but I can tell you our catch rates have either gone up with some species but overall catch rates for our area have been fairly well steady for best part of 20 years.
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I think we fit in the 'localised depletion' category. Having fished the same area every year since late 80s. The decline is dramatic.
However - having the plunderer from HB Seafoods working your doorstep for years probably never helped. Interestingly, last summer, our fishing did seem to pick up. That was the period he had 4 boats impounded for several months previous. Nothing near what it used to be, but an improvement on the previous string of years.
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Alan
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Grand daughter has lost interest in fishing. I don't take her now unless I know I can get on to fish. Like having fished a spot a day before a particular way, and done OK, I will persuade her to come, and hopefully have fish on in a time span within her patience. After a morning and maybe a single gurnard, she starts to loose interest, and I don't want her turned off fishing. So I have to be selective when I take her out. The gurnard fishing off our beach used to be the Go-to way to get a feed, and great for kids - bring home a catch of their own to feed the family - all within an hr or two.
On a bad day I can spend a morning now collecting a couple of gurnard (or worse).
Regards
Alan
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Originally posted by cirrus cirrus wrote:

Alan. Are you saying your catch rates have fallen since  QMS.?
They are down aprox 30% from intro of QMS.
Pre 1985 snapper bag limits were almost what you caught was your limit.(no bag limit)
bag limits for sna1 over the years,quick glance. 
pre 1985 nil
      1985 30@ 25cm
      1993 20 @25cm
      1995 15 @ 27cm
      1997 9 @   27cm
      2014  7 @  30cm

be interesting to see if commercial rates have dropped in comparisonto reccs


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Originally posted by Tzer Tzer wrote:

Originally posted by Sanchez Sanchez wrote:

Originally posted by Tzer Tzer wrote:


If public outrage was the outcome of having cameras on boats what point would it serve. Commercial surface liners within NZ waters have to release marlin dead or alive, someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I think this was part of the requirement of the bill-fish moratorium fought for by the New Big Game Fishing Council now the NZSFC to make marlin a recreational only species. So you cant blame commercial for that perhaps the law should be changed to allow them to land dead fish, I can just hear all the howls of protest of that happening. Tell me how many marlin let alone other species do recreational return to the sea either dead or dying, perhaps cameras on rec boats would solve this problem. As JasonEdward62 says there are cameras on many commercial vessels and has anything changed, not that I'm aware of.


Are you serious in making the average rec voyage comparable to a commercial vessel ? that's nuts if you are.  The riveting footage of my 3 undersize live snapper and one surprised looking little Gurnard I returned yesterday would be excruciatingly pointless. 

Thus far cameras on boats are, as far as I know, only done so voluntary. I would voluntarily put a camera on my boat also, but the vessels of Hawkes Bay seafoods would not have volunteered to put cameras on their boats because they were busy misreporting their catch and raping the fishery. 



Obviously you only read or your brain only comprehended that I mentioned putting cameras on recreational boats and not that commercial cannot land marlin.
So based on your comment about an ex-commercial discarding 30 dead marlin, tell me how would cameras make things change when commercial cannot land them due to the bill-fish moratorium. Public outrage may force the government to change this law by-where marlin could now be landed by commercial rather than be wasted, be-careful what you wish for.




As an aside Tzer, If what he said is correct, how is it the commercial operator was able to catch 30 Marlin while fishing for Tuna?
Are there no viable anti Marlin methods available such as those for sea birds?
Not being smart, just interested is all.
Cheers.
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I would say that Marlin are a given bycatch when longlining for Tuna.

In the 1970s literally hundreds of Japanese longliners fished for Tuna off our coast. Many came into Auckland to bunker for the journey home.
Had a chance to look closely at some.
Not only were they laden down to the plimsol , presumably  with fish,
they had cords strung between the masts with literally hundreds of sharkfins drying in the wind and sun, and the scuppers and elsewhere were littered with uncountable numbers of billfish swords. The bycatch of marlin and possibly broadbill was clearly substantial 

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Originally posted by v8-coupe v8-coupe wrote:

Originally posted by Tzer Tzer wrote:

Originally posted by Sanchez Sanchez wrote:

Originally posted by Tzer Tzer wrote:


If public outrage was the outcome of having cameras on boats what point would it serve. Commercial surface liners within NZ waters have to release marlin dead or alive, someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I think this was part of the requirement of the bill-fish moratorium fought for by the New Big Game Fishing Council now the NZSFC to make marlin a recreational only species. So you cant blame commercial for that perhaps the law should be changed to allow them to land dead fish, I can just hear all the howls of protest of that happening. Tell me how many marlin let alone other species do recreational return to the sea either dead or dying, perhaps cameras on rec boats would solve this problem. As JasonEdward62 says there are cameras on many commercial vessels and has anything changed, not that I'm aware of.


Are you serious in making the average rec voyage comparable to a commercial vessel ? that's nuts if you are.  The riveting footage of my 3 undersize live snapper and one surprised looking little Gurnard I returned yesterday would be excruciatingly pointless. 

Thus far cameras on boats are, as far as I know, only done so voluntary. I would voluntarily put a camera on my boat also, but the vessels of Hawkes Bay seafoods would not have volunteered to put cameras on their boats because they were busy misreporting their catch and raping the fishery. 



Obviously you only read or your brain only comprehended that I mentioned putting cameras on recreational boats and not that commercial cannot land marlin.
So based on your comment about an ex-commercial discarding 30 dead marlin, tell me how would cameras make things change when commercial cannot land them due to the bill-fish moratorium. Public outrage may force the government to change this law by-where marlin could now be landed by commercial rather than be wasted, be-careful what you wish for.




As an aside Tzer, If what he said is correct, how is it the commercial operator was able to catch 30 Marlin while fishing for Tuna?
Are there no viable anti Marlin methods available such as those for sea birds?
Not being smart, just interested is all.
Cheers.


Marlin are caught by commercial surface liners targeting tunas such as y/fin, bigeye, albacore etc and cannot be caught & landed within NZ waters due to the bill fish moratorium. As with all baited hook & line fishing you cannot control what eats the bait but the point was made or implied that by having cameras on boats would stop this from happening.


.
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Originally posted by Tzer Tzer wrote:

[QUOTE=v8-coupe] [QUOTE=Tzer] [QUOTE=Sanchez]
Marlin are caught by commercial surface liners targeting tunas such as y/fin, bigeye, albacore etc and cannot be caught & landed within NZ waters due to the bill fish moratorium. As with all baited hook & line fishing you cannot control what eats the bait but the point was made or implied that by having cameras on boats would stop this from happening.

What do they do then if a Marlin is caught?
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Just to clarify, is this topic saying that recreational fisherpersons take more than commercial fisherman?
Isn’t that a little ironic?
So people who do it professionally catch less and the amateur fishermen is taking more out of the ocean?
What a whole lotta bovine effluent...
The problems of this world even outside of fishing is commercialism....
Greed is the reason the world is such a bad state...
No difference with fishing stock...
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Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:






https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://seachange.org.nz/assets/Sea-Change/SWG/Recreational-Fisheries-in-the-Hauraki-Gulf-Bruce-Hartill-NIWA.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjTks2e27HkAhVSg-YKHV0PBHoQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw22hixT5Dq-CkF6BOQH09Yy


While I am not poking a finger at you Croc, there is something seriously wrong with this synopsis. I don't know any details about how this data has been established (what methodologies in 1991?). But this is waaay wrong in the fishing I have been doing since late 80s. Eg instead of catching a few decent puka a summer in a minimal boat, no GPS, or sounder I can now goa whole summer and lucky if I land a pup where I used to catch serious puka. I hate catching pup grouper, but the chances of a bigger one are near infinitesimal. Gurnard? I can now expect to spend a day catching 2-3 sometimes. They were the staple fish in our area for a decade or more from the 90s.
Something not quite right with that data. According to that I should be catching more puka and gurnard than I was in early 90s??
Regards
Alan
[/QUOTE]

It refers only to snapper and kahawai in the Hauraki Gulf, not other species or areas.

It's Bruce Harthill's presentation. Pretty much all the recreational fishing research in New Zealand is carried out by Bruce, other than the national panel survey and some of the stuff John does.

I reckon pūka are in bad shape around the country, your experience doesn't surprise me at all. I haven't looked into gurnard for a while.
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Originally posted by v8-coupe v8-coupe wrote:

Originally posted by MightyBoosh MightyBoosh wrote:

If the commercials had to land everything they caught and their quota was based on total biomass landed, they would soon sort their **** out and use more selective fishing methods. Assuming the rules enforced of course.


I have made that suggestion at each of the meetings I have been to.
The reply from the commercial sector representative is basically if bring all home is applied to industry then it should apply to the rec sector as well.


I use 9/0 circle hooks and have close to 100% catch and release.

I spearfish and shoot legal fish.

So f that I say. But perhaps it is a wake up call to how we all catch and handle (wet gloves etc) our fish?
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Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

Grand daughter has lost interest in fishing. I don't take her now unless I know I can get on to fish. Like having fished a spot a day before a particular way, and done OK, I will persuade her to come, and hopefully have fish on in a time span within her patience. After a morning and maybe a single gurnard, she starts to loose interest, and I don't want her turned off fishing. So I have to be selective when I take her out. The gurnard fishing off our beach used to be the Go-to way to get a feed, and great for kids - bring home a catch of their own to feed the family - all within an hr or two.
On a bad day I can spend a morning now collecting a couple of gurnard (or worse).
Regards
Alan


Are you Hawke Bay Alan?

Bruce Hartill did some work a few years ago comparing fishing club data to survey data.

"Broad trends in catch rates can still be inferred from the three most recent research provider creel surveys, however, and a direct comparison of these with similar catch rate indices (number of fish landed per boat trip) calculated from the HBSFC data can be used to corroborate (or not) the latter. The
degree of similarity between pairwise comparisons of catch rate indices derived from the two data
sources for each species is the same, regardless of whether catch rates are expressed in terms of average catch per fisher or average catch per boat.

The similarity of the snapper and kahawai catch rate indices calculated from the two data sources
suggests that the HBSFC data provides a reasonably reliable indication of the changes in fishing success
experienced by club members over the past ten years, but similar comparisons for red gurnard and
tarakihi are less promising."

https://www.mpi.govt.nz/dmsdocument/19292-far-201743-review-of-competition-creel-survey-data-provided-by-the-hawkes-bay-sport-fishing-club
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Originally posted by pjc pjc wrote:

Originally posted by cirrus cirrus wrote:

Alan. Are you saying your catch rates have fallen since  QMS.?
They are down aprox 30% from intro of QMS.
Pre 1985 snapper bag limits were almost what you caught was your limit.(no bag limit)
bag limits for sna1 over the years,quick glance. 
pre 1985 nil
      1985 30@ 25cm
      1993 20 @25cm
      1995 15 @ 27cm
      1997 9 @   27cm
      2014  7 @  30cm

be interesting to see if commercial rates have dropped in comparisonto reccs




There are areas outside of SNA1 Paul.

Recreational size limits for snapper are as follows:

Auckland East: 30cm
Auckland West: 27cm
Central: 27cm
Challenger: 25cm
Marlborough Sounds area: 25cm
Kaikoura: 25cm
South-East: 25cm
Fiordland: 25cm
Southland: 25cm

Feel free to look for yourself: https://www.mpi.govt.nz/travel-and-recreation/fishing/fishing-rules/

Two snapper stocks have been reviewed in the last few years.

SNA1 was reviewed in 2013.

The recreational allowance was increased by 17% (450 tonnes). The commercial allowance wasn't touched.



SNA7 was reviewed in 2016.

The recreational allowance was increased by 178% (160 tonnes) and the commercial allowance by 25% (50 tonnes).

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Originally posted by FizFisho FizFisho wrote:

Originally posted by Tzer Tzer wrote:

[QUOTE=v8-coupe] [QUOTE=Tzer] [QUOTE=Sanchez]
Marlin are caught by commercial surface liners targeting tunas such as y/fin, bigeye, albacore etc and cannot be caught & landed within NZ waters due to the bill fish moratorium. As with all baited hook & line fishing you cannot control what eats the bait but the point was made or implied that by having cameras on boats would stop this from happening.

What do they do then if a Marlin is caught?


By law they have to be released dead or alive.
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Originally posted by puff puff wrote:

Just to clarify, is this topic saying that recreational fisherpersons take more than commercial fisherman?
Isn’t that a little ironic?
So people who do it professionally catch less and the amateur fishermen is taking more out of the ocean?
What a whole lotta bovine effluent...
The problems of this world even outside of fishing is commercialism....
Greed is the reason the world is such a bad state...
No difference with fishing stock...


No this topic was suppose to be about the results of the current recreational fishing survey undertaken and that it has found recreational to be taking more than was previously though.
Many though have chosen not to accept the findings and turn this topic around to blame commercial fishing, by all means discuss/debate the pros & cons of this survey but dont make it about commercial fisherman this is a recreational survey.
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Originally posted by Tzer Tzer wrote:

Originally posted by puff puff wrote:

Just to clarify, is this topic saying that recreational fisherpersons take more than commercial fisherman?
Isn’t that a little ironic?
So people who do it professionally catch less and the amateur fishermen is taking more out of the ocean?
What a whole lotta bovine effluent...
The problems of this world even outside of fishing is commercialism....
Greed is the reason the world is such a bad state...
No difference with fishing stock...


No this topic was suppose to be about the results of the current recreational fishing survey undertaken and that it has found recreational to be taking more than was previously though.
Many though have chosen not to accept the findings and turn this topic around to blame commercial fishing, by all means discuss/debate the pros & cons of this survey but dont make it about commercial fisherman this is a recreational survey.


Have already called BS on methodology.

The results do show 1 million less snapper caught by recs so we have done our part and it is trending downwards.

So naturally the focus should return onto comms given the Terakihi news recently.
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Originally posted by Tzer Tzer wrote:

Originally posted by FizFisho FizFisho wrote:

Originally posted by Tzer Tzer wrote:

[QUOTE=v8-coupe] [QUOTE=Tzer] [QUOTE=Sanchez]
Marlin are caught by commercial surface liners targeting tunas such as y/fin, bigeye, albacore etc and cannot be caught & landed within NZ waters due to the bill fish moratorium. As with all baited hook & line fishing you cannot control what eats the bait but the point was made or implied that by having cameras on boats would stop this from happening.

What do they do then if a Marlin is caught?


By law they have to be released dead or alive.


Thats sad, but people want to buy fish from the super market and this is the price our greatest of fish have to make.

Also it provides jobs. We would be screwed without the comms.

Its still sad though. Well I just hope the dead ones get eaten by a mako and keep the chain going :-).
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Originally posted by cirrus cirrus wrote:

Alan. Are you saying your catch rates have fallen since  QMS.?
Sorry - fell behind the conversation - lost internet.
Answer.......... Absolutely, unequivocally, YES.
Been fishing the same water for approx 30 yrs, every year.
Alan
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Originally posted by the croc the croc wrote:

Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:





It refers only to snapper and kahawai in the Hauraki Gulf, not other species or areas.

It's Bruce Harthill's presentation. Pretty much all the recreational fishing research in New Zealand is carried out by Bruce, other than the national panel survey and some of the stuff John does.

I reckon pūka are in bad shape around the country, your experience doesn't surprise me at all. I haven't looked into gurnard for a while.
Well that explains a bit - could not relate to our situation.  Yes, I am in H Bay (southern). We would catch a handful of snapper over a whole summer.
FWIW I fish most days that are fishable over summer - which is prob about 60-70% of the days. And in 30 yrs or so, I have NEVER taken a limit bag of fish home. I take what I need for the day or two. Never (rarely) freeze any.
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Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

Originally posted by cirrus cirrus wrote:

Alan. Are you saying your catch rates have fallen since  QMS.?
Sorry - fell behind the conversation - lost internet.
Answer.......... Absolutely, unequivocally, YES.
Been fishing the same water for approx 30 yrs, every year.
Alan

So your catches are down ,same area over the years. Would expect fishermen in many areas would say the same.
So what does that say about the QMS, and the hidden intent within that system.
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