Reccs are taking too much

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote v8-coupe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2019 at 5:03pm
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Originally posted by Tzer Tzer wrote:

Alan L

I think the point croc was making is that Leagsea fully endorses the methodology and states that the truth is New Zealand has a world-leading way of estimating recreational catch.

Now so far since the survey results have come out Leagsea themselves haven't publicly endorsed the latest results, but many of their supporters as well as some of their own team have severely criticized the results. So is this double standards or are they being hypocrites.




I am a Legasea supporter.
I am also an annoyance to the bureaucrats both local and central.
I do not just leave it up to Legasea to represent me.
I agree with some of Legaseas rhetoric.
Not all.
I agree with some of Legaseas actions.
Not all.
I agree with some of Legaseas methodology.
Not all.
I believe Legasea play the middle ground so as not to overly annoy anyone in authority in case they get the door slammed in their face thus losing access to valuable data whether that data be manipulated, factual or skewed.
Cheers.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2019 at 5:07pm
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Anything claiming to be world leading I am always dubious on.

Either way if the numbers are correct it is trending downwards. So when the next cuts come we know who's turn it is next time.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Alan L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2019 at 6:18pm
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Something different - today's effort. Got 3.
A village is eating fish tonight.
Alan
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2019 at 6:42pm
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Where have i heard that before. Oh thats right,our quota management system. World class they said.
Interesting spin on what was the nationalization of our fisheries.
With the stroke of a pen our fishery became the property of big Government,big business and big food and has remained so until this day
It wasnt world class for the small commercial fishermen pushed out,or the broken coastal community, or the hardship sustained ,or even the consumer who could once buy fish directly from the boat.
Of course our local fishermen got the blame for damage to the fishery.
The real blame goes back much further.
 From the late 1950s  until the mid 1970s when we had the 12 mile limit the Japanese snapper longliners appeared on our coast in large numbers. Then in the early 1960s the trawlers from Japan,South Korea,Taiwan and Russia appeared. Combined they did very well from our coast.

As a result of this and our QMS we now have a fragmented inshore fishery and more recently a well developed off shore fishery . To give credit where its due its great to see affordable seafood such as Hoki available to the public ,when  inshore fish today is not affordable to most. Be great to see more deep sea product available. Hope the deep sea industry remains viable for years to come, for it may well be the offshore sector which is able to take pressure off our inshore fishery in the future, that is  if logic, reason and maybe goodwill prevail. 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Fish Addict Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2019 at 9:57pm
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Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

Something different - today's effort. Got 3.
A village is eating fish tonight.
Alan

Nice Hoo Alan, you'll be popular with the locals.
What make is the boat? It looks an interesting design with the removable side doors.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2019 at 11:16pm
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Nice fish Alan. Happy fishermen on a sea of ultramarine. Bliss .Happy locals too ,no doubt. What part of the world are you fishing.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Alan L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2019 at 8:00am
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Prob should have posted in the Work up section - so sorry about that.
Cirrus - fishing Vanuatu.
Fish Addict - boat is a cat hull - S African. Called a Butt Cat - but trade under various names now (patent stuff). You will have seen a few in your part of the world probably. The guy I was with has one in Perth and has imported a few there for others. Ride brilliantly on a crap sea. F/glass.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Alan L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2019 at 8:23am
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I will re post this in the Work up and maybe the Moderator can delete this bit. Fish addict - there are a few pics of the boat I can post up .
Alan
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote the croc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2019 at 12:02am
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The doomers won't like this as it doesn't fit the narrative of everything being terrible but here is the difference in harvest levels per fisher between the two surveys for both number of fish and tonnage. 

I've removed the fisheries with a coefficient of variation greater than 0.3 because the uncertainty is too high, as well as the fisheries where the QMA doesn't map neatly onto the FMA. 

Basically recreational fishers were taking home more per angler in 2017-18 than 2012-13 in some fisheries and less in others. Keeping in mind that two data points don't make a trend, these surveys are a snapshot of a particular year. We know that recreational fishing can massively fluctuate based on a whole bunch of factors.

Gross tonnage or numbers of fish on its own doesn't mean much. 

For example, if you had 1000kg of fish caught by 1000 fishers in Year 1 and 800kg caught by 700 fishers in Year 2, you could argue that the fishing has got worse because Year 2 is 200kg less than Year 1. However, if you look at the numbers per angler, it's 1.0kg per angler in Year 1, and 1.14kg per angler in Year 2. So the fishing has gotten better even though the gross tonnage has reduced. 





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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2019 at 6:49am
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Less fish caught overall is still less fish Croc, wowsers it doesn't get through. We see on TV commercials that fisheries are giving themselves a pat on the back for taking less Hoki and Orange Roughy, of course they had to go to the brink first.

So by rights recreational anglers could run a campaign of how 1 million snapper a year less are caught in a year.


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Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Less fish caught overall is still less fish Croc, wowsers it doesn't get through. We see on TV commercials that fisheries are giving themselves a pat on the back for taking less Hoki and Orange Roughy, of course they had to go to the brink first.

So by rights recreational anglers could run a campaign of how 1 million snapper a year less are caught in a year.




We can argue all we like on recreational vs commercial but at the end of the day we all play a big part in the depletion of our fisheries.
So far this particular post as with many likewise post all start off around the pros & cons of recreational fishing but the focus soon shifts to place any blame for what ever state our fisheries are in squarely with commercial and posts then descend into nothing more than anti commercial bashing.

Muppet yes the seafood industry has a campaign of TV commercials going but what of the recreational sector if advocacy groups such as Legasea think differently then why aren't they running similar campaigns if everyone believes the commercial ads are nothing more than PR stunts. Where does all the money go they take in from supporters?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (2) Likes(2)   Quote Sanchez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2019 at 10:12am
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Tzer I don't think you are being as honest as you think you are. Alan's posts about the impact of commercial in his local fishery in particular were remarkably level headed, informative and really really sad. . His point about the data in the survey being only half the span required to properly understand the decline in the original stocks is something worth thinking about. Definitely. I'm not a Legasea supporter so I'm not going to start wondering where they spend their money. It's a bit weird you said that BTW. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2019 at 10:43am
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Re fishing industry. T.V commercials. What is their intent. Who are their target viewers.? Costs a lot of money to put together a T.V commercial,and a lot of money to screen it. Who pays for the commercials.

Its the same focus everytime. We know there are this many fish and we only catch this many fish. So what.
Similar commercials ran last winter. They abruptly ceased,and then it was announced a few weeks after on September 26th 2018 ,that Hoki Quota was to be cut by 22%,because the fish were not co operating.
One could only conclude they didnt know how many fish were there at all. And that alone shows how much is assumed ,but in reality how little is known about our fisheries.
What those commercials also fail to explain is why quality fish such as Hoki can retail for $10 kg or silver /mirror dory costs around $16 KG. yet fail to explain the high cost of inshore fish.
Great to see quality protein available to consumers for affordable prices ,especially in a country where diabeties and obesity are at epidemic levels.
Yet our inshore fish are largely beyond the reach of most consumers.
Skinned /boned blue cod at $57 KG. Snapper ,John dory and other inshore fish not far behind.
WHY.??? . Inshore vessels are smaller ,less labour intensive,travel shorter distance,use less fuel yet the inshore product is expensive compared to the offshore.
Is it because they are exported to wealthier markets or is it because the inshore industry is in its sunset years.
All i can say is when i go out for a fish and bring home a few fish for dinner i know i am not depleting the fishery.
After all fisheries were doing just fine being fished by local populations for food. Worldwide decline began with the invention of the steam trawlers.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2019 at 11:28am
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Originally posted by Sanchez Sanchez wrote:

Tzer I don't think you are being as honest as you think you are. Alan's posts about the impact of commercial in his local fishery in particular were remarkably level headed, informative and really really sad. . His point about the data in the survey being only half the span required to properly understand the decline in the original stocks is something worth thinking about. Definitely. I'm not a Legasea supporter so I'm not going to start wondering where they spend their money. It's a bit weird you said that BTW. 


How am I not being honest. This topic was supposed to be about the current recreational survey results and perhaps how they compared to the last survey. Yet somehow all of those commenting have managed to turn this all around and make it about blaming commercial rather than accept the results, talk about getting off topic.

As for Alan's posts I dont recall saying that he was wrong in how he found the results in fact I mentioned that quite likely some areas in NZ will show localised depletion but I can tell you our catch rates have either gone up with some species but overall catch rates for our area has been fairly well steady for best part of 20 years or more.

While I too am not a supporter of Legasea, I do believe that NZ is in need of a strong advocacy group for recreational fishes it just that I dont agree with how they go about reporting some issues which to me comes across as nothing but propaganda and the constant anti commercial sentiment so I dont support them because of it.

I feel this comment from cirrus pretty much sums up how recreational view themselves "All I can say is when I go out for a fish and bring home a few fish for dinner I know I am not depleting the fishery" whether you want to accept it or not as a whole commercial, recreational & customary we are all responsible to the depletion of our fisheries.


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No matter how you view depletion,every fish taken is depletion eventually as they may lay a million eggs but by the time they grown to legal size how many have reccs/comms taken??

"Legasea" is not anti commercial just anti inshore destruction by trawlers,longliners are no threat as such.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (2) Likes(2)   Quote puff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2019 at 11:59am
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So are recreational fishers taking to much?
I’ve the years I would say no.
I guess the depletion of fish stock is due to the commercial industry and NOT recreational fishers.
We would not be having this discussion if the comms sector pillaged the ocean over the years.
To say that rec fishers are taking to much is really pathetic imho.
If rec fishers stopped tomorrow how long would it take for the fish stock to return?
If comms stopped tomorrow how long would it take for the fish stock to return?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2019 at 12:21pm
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Say i go out and bring home 4 legal snapper. Yes that is 4 snapper that are gone for good. Cant argue with that. However my fishing is selective. I target snapper ,i get snapper. No unwanted by catch, no ripping up the seabed in the process. Its all about scale of take. 

Sydney harbour. Commercial has been excluded. Recreational not excluded.
The fishery has returned in leaps and bounds despite recreational still fishing.
Clearly that says something.

The reason given for the ban was high dioxin levels . Recommended fish from the harbour not be eaten.

Anyone know if the Manukau ,waitemata ,or inner gulf has been tested for dioxin.?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Alan L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2019 at 1:11pm
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Tzer, you have a lot of foul ground for fishing in your area. I wonder if that makes a difference - eg preserving some fish stocks - snapper, cod, terakihi.
Or do the comm guys fish those areas too? What do you think?
Just wondering if some of the rec fish stock there is not under the same pressure as elsewhere.
Regards
Alan
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2019 at 3:34pm
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Originally posted by cirrus cirrus wrote:

Re fishing industry. T.V commercials. What is their intent. Who are their target viewers.? Costs a lot of money to put together a T.V commercial,and a lot of money to screen it. Who pays for the commercials.

Its the same focus everytime. We know there are this many fish and we only catch this many fish. So what.
Similar commercials ran last winter. They abruptly ceased,and then it was announced a few weeks after on September 26th 2018 ,that Hoki Quota was to be cut by 22%,because the fish were not co operating.
One could only conclude they didnt know how many fish were there at all. And that alone shows how much is assumed ,but in reality how little is known about our fisheries.
What those commercials also fail to explain is why quality fish such as Hoki can retail for $10 kg or silver /mirror dory costs around $16 KG. yet fail to explain the high cost of inshore fish.
Great to see quality protein available to consumers for affordable prices ,especially in a country where diabeties and obesity are at epidemic levels.
Yet our inshore fish are largely beyond the reach of most consumers.
Skinned /boned blue cod at $57 KG. Snapper ,John dory and other inshore fish not far behind.
WHY.??? . Inshore vessels are smaller ,less labour intensive,travel shorter distance,use less fuel yet the inshore product is expensive compared to the offshore.
Is it because they are exported to wealthier markets or is it because the inshore industry is in its sunset years.
All i can say is when i go out for a fish and bring home a few fish for dinner i know i am not depleting the fishery.
After all fisheries were doing just fine being fished by local populations for food. Worldwide decline began with the invention of the steam trawlers.




It is because the high price is what they get in London etc. They justify higher prices with that reason. When I think people will now be looking at imported products and the need for them. Especially the greenie types who think about climate change, why buy NZ fish from that distance?

I have said in this thread it is a concern that fish are being caught needlessly if they are not selling off the supermarket shelves at those prices. If the best they can do with comm fish is frozen and battered at the chippy like most do or god forbid frozen crumbed hoki then why bother? I tried fresh hoki once and it will be only once.
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Originally posted by puff puff wrote:

So are recreational fishers taking to much?
I’ve the years I would say no.
I guess the depletion of fish stock is due to the commercial industry and NOT recreational fishers.
We would not be having this discussion if the comms sector pillaged the ocean over the years.
To say that rec fishers are taking to much is really pathetic imho.
If rec fishers stopped tomorrow how long would it take for the fish stock to return?
If comms stopped tomorrow how long would it take for the fish stock to return?
The above is an exact example of how most recreational fishers and most of the same old posters in this thread, all have the head in the sand attitude.
The TACC of snapper has been the same amount for nearly 20 years. 6.5k tons. https://figure.nz/chart/XuZ4uvsOpxD1Tz8E-x8VjAOPd1BSo2TBc
In the same time frame, the NZ population has increased by 1 million, so the recreational fishers would have increased proportionately as well.
As for the so-called recreational catch surveys, they are and have always been flawed. In my circles, it has always been agreed that at least 50% of the recreational catch is caught by 20% of recreational fishers.
These are the more experienced fishers who are fishing very early in the morning or in the late evening and are home before any of the volunteer surveyors are out of bed and any aerial surveys. Do you think any of their catch is counted? No. So these surveys are only based on about 50% of the recreational catch.
So, in essence, these so-called surveys have always been way underestimated.
Just imagine the coastline of NZ and the amount of beach launching of these fishers. Do you think they are surveyed. I think not.
I don't know the answer, but to blame solely the commercial fixed catch is just deluded. Who knows what the actual recreational catch is.   
 

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