Proposed Cannabis Referendum (personal use)

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote muchalls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2019 at 6:57pm
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The debate is indeed interesting!
I come at it from the pro legalisation and increasing the availability of medical marijuana. Current medicinal cannabis products eg Tilray, are ridiculously expensive.
However there is often a lack of clarity around legalisation, indeed as above, the Green Party supports growing at home for personal use - this is at odds with ‘smoke free Aotearoa by 2025’.........I’m waiting on a response from the Minister!
Unfortunately I think there are more than a few stoners who think they will be getting joints on prescription!

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Should we throw Act leader David Seymour bill in for debate,Euthanasia
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[QUOTE=pjc]Should we throw Act leader David Seymour bill in for debate,Euthanasia 

That makes sense as many terminally ill want to ease their suffering being stoned. 
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It certainly is a very interesting area. My company is involved in bringing a medical cannabis product into New Zealand. One of the challenges is the lack of understanding about MC even amongst clinicians. The products are also quite expensive.

Despite what you can readily read on the web there is only pretty limited data about the benefits of MC. Although CBD is probably pretty safe to use, there is pretty strong evidence of the potential adverse impacts in people under 25 from THC. The THC content is much higher now in recreational cannabis than say in the 70s so weed is not the same now as it used to be.

The truth is that cannabis was likely unfairly demonised in the 20th century but like any drug (including medicines) it is not a harmless panacea.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (2) Likes(2)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2019 at 8:24am
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Originally posted by pjc pjc wrote:

"V 8" pm sent
For everyone else,No not a user but how would it effect random drug testing being a legal drug??one would like to think it would be same rules as alcohol in the work place.

I'm pretty sure most work places that have random testing include alcohol in that PJC. Alcohol is a legal drug, but there aren't too many workplaces that will tolerate impaiment at work.  The problem with cannabis is it is stored in your body fats for a long time. I'm not suggesting that if you smoke on a Friday night you will still be high on Monday morning but a urine test will still detect THC. Saliva tests measure impairment and in my opinion are a fairer test but I suspect most employers want to eliminate recreational drug users from their employ.

Alcohol vs cannabis? I'm not sure I want cannabis legalised but the black market behind it has ruined many people and is a massive burden on this country. That problem will remain in a far more sinister form.

I have no doubt THC is a gateway drug to those with addictive personalities but then alcohol is too I suspect.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2019 at 9:16am
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1/ it is very obvious as to the tea head posts and non tea head posts.. Kinto comment sums that up early very well

2/ home grow as against prescribed drugs.. real dumb.
Prescribed drugs the dosage and purity of that dose can be accurately prescribed... home grown is at very best hit in miss.. which maybe ok and justifiable for terminal cancer  etc, outside that is just another tea head excuse to get around rules.
No different than if strong opioid or similar non adictive drugs could be self administrated and that is the justification or an addict to legalise.
3/ Alcohol and cell phone are an issue on the roads..recently we are seeing other drugs now a major issue on the roads.. we are way behind the rest of the world on this....
And the logic to 'legise ' the use when there is no detection outside the work place???
And even if had road side detection, would that make any difference?  legalised alcohol is still also an issue.

3/ Is a harmless, non addictive.. yeah right.. another 1/2 blind tea heard BS argument
 And we want to add another drug to an over all social problem..one THAT SIGNIFICANTLY DOES HURT OTHERS AND FAMILIES... tell that to the INNOCENT families and ppl that pick up the pieces after accidents, mammings and deaths on the roads..

4/Why is it so many industries require drug testing.. because they have a legal responsibility to keep the rest of their  safe.. or face very high fines, penalties , pay serious compensation , and in many cases liquidate the company because of it..

4/ In many parts of our country we have an unemployment issue.. yet there is a labour shortage.. Reason being is  failing drug testing for the job, or on the job .. and behind that a tea head mentality and no need to get off their bums to contribute to any of the social support financed by the rest of us who pay taxes.

This is no more than another irresponsible vote gathering BS  issue this government is putting forward with far to much emphasis placed on minority groups.
 The money would be far better used for better pay and in class support for teachers and nurses who have to pick up the pieces every day of of abuse and effects on our children.

Yes the is a case for main stream affordable prescribed cannabis drugs.. no different to prescribed willow bark extract.. asprin.

Outside that...
no more than a government pandering to teas heads and poor arguments of justification to legalise another socially destroying drug...
Smoking tobacco is expensive to our economy, they support banning that totally, yet support dope???

Bottom line sort comes down to questioning the rational this government has on many levels....
 Bridges and a lot of his cronies on the other side of the house are just as stupid

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2019 at 9:20am
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The difference being "smudge" you have a fewbeers  saturday night nil on sunday and chances are good at passing drug/alcohol test monday morning. Not so with weed as by all accounts it is in your fats/tissue for up to 3 months so a saliva/urine test on monday it would show up. May not be impaired but the test would show positive. 
Now if by chance(even though not impaired)you had a work place accident (all accidents at our work you are tested)and it came back showing positive,then what??
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This from twitter sort of sums it up.

The fact that jellyfish have survived thousands of years despite not having brains is great news for the greens.
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Thousand year old jellyfish Cirrus? What you been smoking? Lol
dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you.
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Originally posted by whippersnappyr whippersnappyr wrote:

It certainly is a very interesting area. My company is involved in bringing a medical cannabis product into New Zealand. One of the challenges is the lack of understanding about MC even amongst clinicians. The products are also quite expensive.

Despite what you can readily read on the web there is only pretty limited data about the benefits of MC. Although CBD is probably pretty safe to use, there is pretty strong evidence of the potential adverse impacts in people under 25 from THC. The THC content is much higher now in recreational cannabis than say in the 70s so weed is not the same now as it used to be.

The truth is that cannabis was likely unfairly demonised in the 20th century but like any drug (including medicines) it is not a harmless panacea.



Is there any good evidence for CBD in pain management?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote fish-feeder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2019 at 6:08pm
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Supposedly yes. Research "Charlottes web CBD oil"
Hemp seed is a superfood,full of amino acids and Omega oils,more than fish.
Its a balance of thc and cbd in each strain that provides pain management (not.pain killing) anticonvulsant usage, and so on. It won't kill pain like the carpet pharma feeds to people,but it takes the sharp edge off it so people can operate without as much pain.
I went through chemo 20yrs back,I couldn't hold much food down,to the point I lost 20kg in 4mths....I was on "ensure" protein drinks from the chemist to keep me alive,which some may know if they have helped with palliative care for elderly people,and the only thing that helped me gain an appetite was cannabis tincture,not smoking it,but drinking it. I think some.people here need to realise not everything that's thrown at you by a doctor is good for you. Paracetamol....when taken regularly will eventually shut your renal/hepatic function down,but the doc said it was ok to take right? And it's legal too.
Deny ignorance and do some open minded research,not so open minded that your brain falls out though. If it does,take 2 Panadol and call your doc in the morning.
dont get my personality mixed up with my attitude,my personality is me,my attitude depends on you.
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Originally posted by fish-feeder fish-feeder wrote:

Supposedly yes. Research "Charlottes web CBD oil"
Hemp seed is a superfood,full of amino acids and Omega oils,more than fish.
Its a balance of thc and cbd in each strain that provides pain management (not.pain killing) anticonvulsant usage, and so on. It won't kill pain like the carpet pharma feeds to people,but it takes the sharp edge off it so people can operate without as much pain.
I went through chemo 20yrs back,I couldn't hold much food down,to the point I lost 20kg in 4mths....I was on "ensure" protein drinks from the chemist to keep me alive,which some may know if they have helped with palliative care for elderly people,and the only thing that helped me gain an appetite was cannabis tincture,not smoking it,but drinking it. I think some.people here need to realise not everything that's thrown at you by a doctor is good for you. Paracetamol....when taken regularly will eventually shut your renal/hepatic function down,but the doc said it was ok to take right? And it's legal too.
Deny ignorance and do some open minded research,not so open minded that your brain falls out though. If it does,take 2 Panadol and call your doc in the morning.


Where to start? I am a practicing medical doctor and have done a fair bit of medical research. I've had a quick look and cannot find anything that would be considered good quality research on the product you mention.

My general understanding is that CBD may be of use in the management of seizures and nausea, but nothing convincing on it's use in pain management outside of very specific circumstances. Happy to be corrected on that. As for THC, I've no doubt that it takes the "edge off", so would many other substances.

As for the rest. Every drug that has any biological activity has side effects. It is a judgement call as to whether the benefits outweigh the risks, and the choice is yours. Your doctor is there to provide advice, and guidance. It's your call whether you follow that advice and guidance. 


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Why not just set legalisation of cannabis use at over 65 years of age. I've still got few years to go but would like something/ an option that compliments and substitutes my red wine growing addiction. And reckon my brain will be pretty well developed to point I' ll know when I need a bit of pain relief. But then my lungs never felt better since kicked ciggies, then cigars, then vaping in that order.
Feel for the young ones who enjoy a joint or two, and get caught and criminalised, or older people in pain paying over the top and having to deal through criminals. Maybe that should be decriminalised. But my main point is get drunks and drug impaired off the roads: test em all, and prosecute hard on those who fail.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote whippersnappyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2019 at 7:32am
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Originally posted by MightyBoosh MightyBoosh wrote:

Originally posted by whippersnappyr whippersnappyr wrote:

It certainly is a very interesting area. My company is involved in bringing a medical cannabis product into New Zealand. One of the challenges is the lack of understanding about MC even amongst clinicians. The products are also quite expensive.

Despite what you can readily read on the web there is only pretty limited data about the benefits of MC. Although CBD is probably pretty safe to use, there is pretty strong evidence of the potential adverse impacts in people under 25 from THC. The THC content is much higher now in recreational cannabis than say in the 70s so weed is not the same now as it used to be.

The truth is that cannabis was likely unfairly demonised in the 20th century but like any drug (including medicines) it is not a harmless panacea.



Is there any good evidence for CBD in pain management?


Not really. This could be because an absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absense. There really is a dearth of good studies that would convince someone trained in the field as opposed to n of 1 never failed in my hands stuff that a lay person might be persuaded by.

There are however physicians (especially pain specialists and palliative care doctors) who do believe there is something to it even for CBD only. I guess the motivation to try more novel approaches is stronger in areas like chronic pain. There may be quite a strong placebo effect, but if it works it works? CBD is likely to be quite benign so the downside of trialing it is only the cost?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote whippersnappyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2019 at 7:37am
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Originally posted by MightyBoosh MightyBoosh wrote:

Originally posted by fish-feeder fish-feeder wrote:

Supposedly yes. Research "Charlottes web CBD oil"
Hemp seed is a superfood,full of amino acids and Omega oils,more than fish.
Its a balance of thc and cbd in each strain that provides pain management (not.pain killing) anticonvulsant usage, and so on. It won't kill pain like the carpet pharma feeds to people,but it takes the sharp edge off it so people can operate without as much pain.
I went through chemo 20yrs back,I couldn't hold much food down,to the point I lost 20kg in 4mths....I was on "ensure" protein drinks from the chemist to keep me alive,which some may know if they have helped with palliative care for elderly people,and the only thing that helped me gain an appetite was cannabis tincture,not smoking it,but drinking it. I think some.people here need to realise not everything that's thrown at you by a doctor is good for you. Paracetamol....when taken regularly will eventually shut your renal/hepatic function down,but the doc said it was ok to take right? And it's legal too.
Deny ignorance and do some open minded research,not so open minded that your brain falls out though. If it does,take 2 Panadol and call your doc in the morning.



Where to start? I am a practicing medical doctor and have done a fair bit of medical research. I've had a quick look and cannot find anything that would be considered good quality research on the product you mention.

My general understanding is that CBD may be of use in the management of seizures and nausea, but nothing convincing on it's use in pain management outside of very specific circumstances. Happy to be corrected on that. As for THC, I've no doubt that it takes the "edge off", so would many other substances.

As for the rest. Every drug that has any biological activity has side effects. It is a judgement call as to whether the benefits outweigh the risks, and the choice is yours. Your doctor is there to provide advice, and guidance. It's your call whether you follow that advice and guidance. 




Oh I see you are a clinician. I think one of the best resources has been complied by the TGA (Australian equivalent of Medsafe). Here is the pain one.

https://www.tga.gov.au/publication/guidance-use-medicinal-cannabis-treatment-chronic-non-cancer-pain-australia
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 a very good m8 of some 40yrs, had bowl cancer.. had .. well after a period remission , came back  he died.

 This guy for his whole life was a stand up straight citizen...
With kemo and the mess of everything else his late 15 yrs  was not a pleasant experience over all.
When  the cancer came back, more kemo, his doctor off the record suggests getting into a few joints.. At this point he had closed down his business he started back in the late 70s.
He was absolutely horrified at the suggestion.. asked around and a nephew or cousin sourced a little for him and gave it a go.. he could not handle a joint as had never smoked in his life so used a small pipe. held maybe 2 match heads in volume.
This is how he described it
 It did not remove the pain as such, it sort of moved it sideways making his attitude to it "rather abstract"..
And the same of a lot of other attitudes started to getting more "laid back" 
Did it help, yep I recon so..quite a bit, his attitudes in that last yr or or so thu life etc really messed up was far more chirpy than his 1st lot of kemo.. in fact a little more laid back than the previous decades before the cancer.

Rather a meticulous person he and kept a record of how much when he prescribed...which on ave was about 9 or 10gms per 3 months.
He also recognised his change in attitude as the months rolled over.. very much that "wish had had the same ideas when growing the business, but the lack of ambition and motivation to carry any of them out..

In his terms.. tea head attitude.

As to self medication, he would be an exception to the rule..

being able to say grow a plant to self medicate.. BS
 a plant from my understanding is about 1kg of product.

At say 9/10gm/ 3 months  thats over 100x 3 months..thats over 300yrs supply..

I will always remember xxx not so much for the crap life he had in those last yrs but that smile that would pop up every now and then, which never saw at any time in the previous yrs.
And the craftsmanship the perfection, quality of work he put into his design and fabrication engineering trade.



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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Clifftastic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2019 at 9:37am
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Sorry to hear that Steps.

Whether its legal or not, people will still find it and use it.

Next.... 
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Originally posted by whippersnappyr whippersnappyr wrote:

 
Not really. This could be because an absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absense. There really is a dearth of good studies that would convince someone trained in the field as opposed to n of 1 never failed in my hands stuff that a lay person might be persuaded by.

There are however physicians (especially pain specialists and palliative care doctors) who do believe there is something to it even for CBD only. I guess the motivation to try more novel approaches is stronger in areas like chronic pain. There may be quite a strong placebo effect, but if it works it works? CBD is likely to be quite benign so the downside of trialing it is only the cost?


Thanks for your reply. It confirms my general understanding of the situation. As for "if it works, it works"/placebo effect, you might as well be selling snake oil. If CBD doesn't have good evidence for a specific purpose, I doubt the medical profession will get behind it. Cannabis products shouldn't be treated differently from any other new drug.   
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Originally posted by whippersnappyr whippersnappyr wrote:

 I think one of the best resources has been complied by the TGA (Australian equivalent of Medsafe). Here is the pain one.

https://www.tga.gov.au/publication/guidance-use-medicinal-cannabis-treatment-chronic-non-cancer-pain-australia


That is a good summary of evidence, thanks for posting. Anyone who is interested in this stuff should take a read
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Originally posted by MightyBoosh MightyBoosh wrote:

Originally posted by whippersnappyr whippersnappyr wrote:

 
Not really. This could be because an absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absense. There really is a dearth of good studies that would convince someone trained in the field as opposed to n of 1 never failed in my hands stuff that a lay person might be persuaded by.

There are however physicians (especially pain specialists and palliative care doctors) who do believe there is something to it even for CBD only. I guess the motivation to try more novel approaches is stronger in areas like chronic pain. There may be quite a strong placebo effect, but if it works it works? CBD is likely to be quite benign so the downside of trialing it is only the cost?



Thanks for your reply. It confirms my general understanding of the situation. As for "if it works, it works"/placebo effect, you might as well be selling snake oil. If CBD doesn't have good evidence for a specific purpose, I doubt the medical profession will get behind it. Cannabis products shouldn't be treated differently from any other new drug.   



I didn’t mean any placebo effect is a substitute for a real one. It is one possible explanation for the disparity between some of the anecdotes and the lack of data to date. This is a more complicated area than can easily be discussed in a forum.
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