Customary Permits

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 4:46pm
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That is part of the problem I think. We have a flawed system managing commercial take and the people benefiting appear to somehow have a stranglehold on whichever government we elect. That needs explaining. 
Then we have a customary take system that has good intentions but is much too open to abuse. There we have a potential 'race' issue for any government that tries to fix the problem as well as probably a bunch of legal issues relating to Treaty settlements.

At the bottom of the pile are the other 4 million plus Kiwis who don't benefit from either system. Somehow you would think that number might be enough to get something done, but there isn't enough cohesiveness there yet so the government feels quite free to ignore them apart from pre-election when they make more promises to break once safely in power.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 6:24pm
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Originally posted by Kevin.S Kevin.S wrote:

Interesting thread, but what it boils down to is that some people administer customary permits well while some abuse the system.

Like many things, it seems like a good idea in principal but doesn't always work in practice.  It would be an unbelievably brave politician who thought they could improve the current system though.  Political suicide I should think.

You always surprise me with your wisdom Kevin. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 6:25pm
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Just needs a stoke of the pen in Parliament.
Due to current stock under the Customary fisheries act all take must be of legal size and no take of endangered species.

There fixed?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 7:07pm
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Don't think it is that easy PJ. What is needed is better enforcement to catch the thieves. Right now you get the impression that in some areas the management is badly compromised
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 7:18pm
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Yes the system is unfair in certain areas,while customary rights allows for undersize crays,I would suggest that the amount taken is only a few hundred compared to the few hundreds or thousands that commercial have taken with the excemption in size limit ,comms should have no excemption in size,fish smarter,less crays landed more the $$ value in export I would of thought?


How many of the public even realise comms have the exception or how custmary rights work/exsist?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 7:42pm
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Yes, I agree that enforcement of the current regs would go a long way. We actually seem to accept a low level of performance of those in charge of enforcing the laws we currently have. It is almost like we don't expect any better. You would be disheartened to see what we went thru to get MPI to even listen to our complaints of poaching on the reef at our beach. 'How do you know they have a sack of paua? Maybe it is full of kina?' Yeah right. We dive on it regularly during summer - hardly find a kina. Which says something for local administration of fisheries - providing it is done right. Once MPI started responding, and getting results, their books looked good too. So they come now - when they are not 100km somewhere else. But then warnings get issued, next a wet bus ticket. You would have tears if I told you some of the stories.
Poaching could be wiped out- if the odds of getting caught were greater than a few % - like 90% chance of getting nabbed, no poaching. 90% of getting caught with too many of whatever, or under size whatever, - will fix it. Proper enforcement of commercial regs - cameras on boats etc. Why are they so against it??
In which case you might then be able to reasonably expect a more rigorous approach to Customary permits too.
And the world would be a better place.
But this stuff sits squarely with Govt failures. When did you last hear a Govt admit they failed?
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Alan
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2019 at 8:20pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2019 at 7:48pm
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Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/03/what-is-the-sea-telling-us-maori-tribes-fearful-over-whale-strandings

Saw this in the Guardian and thought of the irony. 3rd paragraph.
Crock of ****
slowly going where everyone else has already been
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2019 at 10:46pm
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dont even get me started................
"council partnerships  with maori land"
ratepayers pay for council upkeep of said land.
if you feel like you are  a Maori then you are, in fact, a Maori.
everything is racist except............
you will call me racist for saying this (people are ignorant of the actual meaning of racist) but the so called gaurdians of kai moana are the biggest  threat to said kai moana
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 7:11am
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Originally posted by badger99 badger99 wrote:

dont even get me started................
"council partnerships  with maori land"
ratepayers pay for council upkeep of said land.
if you feel like you are  a Maori then you are, in fact, a Maori.
everything is racist except............
you will call me racist for saying this (people are ignorant of the actual meaning of racist) but the so called gaurdians of kai moana are the biggest  threat to said kai moana
well if Sealord are the self-proclaimed "Guardians of the sea"......then the term "Guardian" has had a definition transition at some stage
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 11:36am
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Here are "customary permit" cases reported in the Herald online. Some bits quoted -
 

Two Northland men who collected excess and undersize scallops in the Bay of Islands then used a false retrospective customary permit

trio were nabbed after taking 2638 green-lipped mussels - the daily limit is 50 per person - from Mair Bank, off Marsden Pt……..Hei attempted to organise a retrospective customary permit to gather shellfish and tried to organise access to Otangarei Marae to evade the fisheries officer.

convicted of altering a kaimoana customary fishing document to take smaller than allowed paua……He was also fined for taking more paua than permitted while diving off the Wairarapa coast.

falsely obtaining a customary authorisation to take paua……secured customary authorisations for fictitious events which allowed him to take more than the daily limit…….selling his paua for $22-$25 a kilogram, netting the group a profit of between $9085 and $12098.

caught selling paua fritters in Queen Elizabeth Park during Golden Shears became aggressive and threatened two fisheries officers,…..He had obtained a customary permit for 60 paua for a 21st birthday party

A man who used a falsified Maori customary permit to poach paua has been sentenced

senior Maori guardian of a Hawke's Bay customary food gathering area is facing charges after allegedly misleading fisheries officers……..discovered the men on November 8 at Clifton, south of Napier, allegedly with extra seafood - much of it undersized - and the permit altered to include the extra day.

Matt Paku, a commercial eel and paua fisherman, said legislation governing customary permits needs to be reworked and registered kaitiaki (guardians) held accountable at law for the permits they issue.
"It's too loose and needs to be tightened up.
"It's the inconsistency that lets a kaitiaki play God with the fisheries whether it's allowing undersized fish to be taken, the use or not of (breathing apparatus) tanks and whether the catch is even reported afterwards," he said.
"And you don't even have to be Maori. If an Asian or a Russian can influence a kaitiaki to sign a permit, then they're free to fish under customary right that ordinarily belongs only to Maori.
"The customary fishing permits are so loose and it's us Maori who are the burglars and the crooks once again. Is this a Maori fishing right or a free-for-all?

A Maori guardian and an MP have expressed anger at hundreds of crayfish being taken from a Napier customary fishing reserve using commercial fishing equipment………up to 40 commercial crayfish pots had been seen in the Moremore Mataitai (customary fishing reserve), gathering up to 1400 crayfish a week for "traditional purposes",……

obtaining a Maori customary fishing permit, but learned later that this covered seafood only for hui and tangi and the fish could not be sold to anyone.

 I am sure this is the tip (ie that's come to Fisheries attention) of a huge iceberg of graft.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 12:05pm
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While this post has been awesome for bringing to light some of the shortfalls of the customary permit privilege i expect its also has the double edged sword effect of publicizing and educating a wider audience some whom may not have been fully aware that such a privilege/practice exists and to what extent, there's even been some useful pointers on how permits can be abused for those who may be that way inclined

Im sure those who currently abuse the system are already "up to speed" but it would be interesting to be able to see if there's an increase of permits at least applied for...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 12:22pm
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A Maori guardian and an MP have expressed anger at hundreds of crayfish being taken from a Napier customary fishing reserve using commercial fishing equipment………up to 40 commercial crayfish pots had been seen in the Moremore Mataitai (customary fishing reserve), gathering up to 1400 crayfish a week for "traditional purposes",……

I seem to recall something about that one. A guy with access to CPs had teamed up with a Commercial operator to extract the fish. They had some sort of a Joint Venture going. Ended up in court.

Grasshopper - you can be pretty sure all the wrinkles in the system (and more we prob haven't thought of) are well known in the small communities that have access to the permits.
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Alan  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 1:56pm
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"Grasshopper - you can be pretty sure all the wrinkles in the system (and more we prob haven't thought of) are well known in the small communities that have access to the permits."
Regards
Alan  

My point is how well are these wrinkles now known to unscrupulous individuals OUTSIDE these small communities  after being broadcast here, remember anyone can apply for a permit at the local marae
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 4:02pm
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Originally posted by letsgetem letsgetem wrote:


Here are "customary permit" cases reported in the Herald online. Some bits quoted -
 
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>Two
Northland men who collected excess and undersize scallops in the Bay of Islands
then used a false retrospective customary permit<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>trio were
nabbed after taking 2638 green-lipped mussels - the daily limit is 50 per
person - from Mair Bank, off Marsden Pt……..Hei attempted to organise a
retrospective customary permit to gather shellfish and tried to organise access
to Otangarei Marae to evade the fisheries officer.<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt;" ="element"=""><span style='font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>convicted of altering a kaimoana
customary fishing document to take smaller than allowed paua……He was also fined
for taking more paua than permitted while diving off the Wairarapa coast.<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>falsely
obtaining a customary authorisation to take paua……secured customary
authorisations for fictitious events which allowed him to take more than the
daily limit…….selling his paua for $22-$25 a kilogram, netting the group a
profit of between $9085 and $12098.<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>caught
selling paua fritters in Queen Elizabeth Park during Golden Shears became
aggressive and threatened two fisheries officers,…..He had obtained a customary
permit for 60 paua for a 21st birthday party<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>A man who
used a falsified Maori customary permit to poach paua has been sentenced<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>senior
Maori guardian of a Hawke's Bay customary food gathering area is facing charges
after allegedly misleading fisheries officers……..discovered the men on November
8 at Clifton, south of Napier, allegedly with extra seafood - much of it
undersized - and the permit altered to include the extra day.<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>Matt
Paku, a commercial eel and paua fisherman, said legislation governing customary
permits needs to be reworked and registered kaitiaki (guardians) held
accountable at law for the permits they issue.

"It's too loose and needs to be tightened up.

"It's the inconsistency that lets a kaitiaki play God with the fisheries
whether it's allowing undersized fish to be taken, the use or not of (breathing
apparatus) tanks and whether the catch is even reported afterwards," he
said.

"And you don't even have to be Maori. If an Asian or a Russian can
influence a kaitiaki to sign a permit, then they're free to fish under
customary right that ordinarily belongs only to Maori.

"The customary fishing permits are so loose and it's us Maori who are the
burglars and the crooks once again. Is this a Maori fishing right or a
free-for-all?<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>A Maori
guardian and an MP have expressed anger at hundreds of crayfish being taken
from a Napier customary fishing reserve using commercial fishing equipment………up
to 40 commercial crayfish pots had been seen in the Moremore Mataitai
(customary fishing reserve), gathering up to 1400 crayfish a week for
"traditional purposes",……<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Source Sans Pro Light"; font-size: 15pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;'>obtaining
a Maori customary fishing permit, but learned later that this covered seafood
only for hui and tangi and the fish could not be sold to anyone.<o:p></o:p>
</span>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="1">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="msonormal"=""><o:p><font face="Arial" size="1"> I am sure this is the tip (ie that's come to Fisheries attention) of a huge iceberg of graft.</o:p>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="3">



"from a Napier customary fishing reserve"
'the Moremore Mataitai
(customary fishing reserve)"
Does this mean there are reserves dotted around NZ that only NZers of Maori descent can access?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 4:27pm
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Originally posted by v8-coupe v8-coupe wrote:

 
"from a Napier customary fishing reserve"
'the Moremore Mataitai
(customary fishing reserve)"
Does this mean there are reserves dotted around NZ that only NZers of Maori descent can access?

There is a risk of this happening under some of the proposals that have been investigated. There is also the case of Motiti Island which has been discussed recently where is appears that the Maori owners are requesting exclusive access to the waters around the island. Either that or control that gives them similar rights. There seems to be a definite push happening to give Maori more control over our inshore fisheries so you should stay across the various things that are going on and be active if you want to influence this at all. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 5:14pm
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What would be so wrong with Maori only fishing zones?We the European haven't done a very good job of looking after the natural resources,I can see this would become an apartheid sort of issue. But before European arrived Maori would fish an area whether that be for shellfish/flounder then close for a period of time(rahui)and move somewhere else and repeat the process over again.
If we look overseas ,particularly America where the Europeans killed of the buffalo to drive the red Indian out of futile land.
Africa the poaching that goes on maybe down by natives supplying a European driven market or lions(big cats)as trophy hunts by the wealthy. Asia destroying plantations for palm oil which is killing of the Asian elephant/gorilla .We have a lot to answer for!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 5:22pm
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Originally posted by pjc pjc wrote:

What would be so wrong with Maori only fishing zones?We the European haven't done a very good job of looking after the natural resources,I can see this would become an apartheid sort of issue. But before European arrived Maori would fish an area whether that be for shellfish/flounder then close for a period of time(rahui)and move somewhere else and repeat the process over again.
If we look overseas ,particularly America where the Europeans killed of the buffalo to drive the red Indian out of futile land.
Africa the poaching that goes on maybe down by natives supplying a European driven market or lions(big cats)as trophy hunts by the wealthy. Asia destroying plantations for palm oil which is killing of the Asian elephant/gorilla .We have a lot to answer for!

Yes, Pakeha haven't exactly been a shining light. Pakeha, Maori, Asian blah blah, some good fullas everywhere, some bad fullas everywhere
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 5:23pm
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The original object of this thread was to inform people like myself whom have had no prior experience of the customary permit system.
 
I have had no problem with the customary permits until I saw for myself the outrageous greed of the permit holders and the issuing party and the inevitable wastage after the cultural event.
 
If there was a national standard on permit take and permit issuing then it could be on the right track.
 
I don't see myself bothering to apply for a customary permit, I can catch enough to feed my family under existing rules.
 
Mataitai reserves as I understand, are for customary and recreational fishers under the current law, no commercial.
 
Cheers
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2019 at 5:38pm
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Originally posted by feeder feeder wrote:

The original object of this thread was to inform people like myself whom have had no prior experience of the customary permit system.
 
I have had no problem with the customary permits until I saw for myself the outrageous greed of the permit holders and the issuing party and the inevitable wastage after the cultural event.
 
If there was a national standard on permit take and permit issuing then it could be on the right track.
 
I don't see myself bothering to apply for a customary permit, I can catch enough to feed my family under existing rules.
 
Mataitai reserves as I understand, are for customary and recreational fishers under the current law, no commercial.
 
Cheers

I can't see too many of us disagreeing with that Feeder
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