Recreational Fishing Licences - have your say

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote John H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2017 at 8:18am
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Thanks for you input FA

What was the reaction of anglers to the reduction in Herring bag limit last year?

 Herring is the most common species in recreational catch in WA. There has just been a reduction in the recreational bag limit from 30 per person to 12. This was supported by the paid recreational reps from RecFish west.  Some commercial restrictions were also introduced on the use of G traps.  The decision was based on a stock assessment and a Political decision by the Minister. As far as I can see no compensation was paid to commercial fishers. It is not clear how a Fishing Licence helped in the allocation process.


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The 2014/15 annual report from the WA Department of fisheries says.
The amount the Government spent on managing commercial fishing and aquaculture around the State was $76 million.

The amount the Government spent on managing recreational fishing around the State was $18 million. (corrected)

" 752,000 was number of West Australians estimated to have fished recreationally in the reporting period. Recreational fishing in Western Australia continues to have considerable social value as a popular WA lifestyle activity.

" 170,094 was the number of recreational fishing licences we issued for specific recreational fishing activities. All revenue raised from licence fees goes back into recreational fishing management."

It is not clear how much commercial fishers pay towards fisheries management.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote letsgetem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2017 at 9:25am
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Good discussion. Makes you think.
 
Heres a reason to oppose licensing. Because, there would probably be a statutory body established (like Fish and Game). From then on, government would see it as providing the mouth-piece for recreational fishing; and ignore anyone else.
For example - in a previous post...."in WA. There has just been a reduction in the recreational bag limit from 30 per person to 12. This was supported by the paid recreational reps from RecFish west.". I bet recreational fishers didn't agree with that.  What Im saying is, a statutory body would remove a lot of the power of grass-roots fishers to have their views heard.  If Legasea became a statutory body, their independence would be compromised.
 
After considering it, Im basically opposed to licensing. Further - I cant see government agreeing to it anyway, because of two things -
- Maori would refuse to pay it, and then most of the rest of us would naturally refuse also. Mass refusal would kill it.
- it would be political suicide for any party that tried to introduce it 
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So, we do nothing now and in XX years time when the fishery has collapsed, say damn, we should have tried harder. Not saying a license is the right answer, but for the cost of a day's fuel, I'd be willing to give it a go provided there was a meaningful reduction in inshore commercial catch. 

"We" as recreational anglers always seem to be moaning about a reduction in fish stocks, but don't want to do anything about it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2017 at 10:14am
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Originally posted by pjc pjc wrote:

Here is the policy in full??

http://www.rnrcharters.co.nz/Moyles_Promise.cfm
http://www.inshore.co.nz/fileadmin/inshore/documents/SNA_1_Commerical_-_Submission_IPP_2013_lodged.pdf


seems to be overridden  in 2013 by this statement??
The Minister has a clear obligation to manage recreational catch. Despite this, successive Ministers have failed to do so, with recreational catch increasing and essentially unconstrained. That is not good fisheries management, and it is encouraging that the Ministry has proposed reasonable measures to constrain recreational catch to the recreational allocation. These measures will not prevent recreational fishers from catching a feed of fish for whanau, family and friends. 7 We need the Minister to stand up and base his decision on evidence and analysis, rather than on misinformation and scaremongering. Contrary to the rhetoric of the recreational lobby, the Supreme Court has confirmed that recreational interests do not take priority over commercial SUBMISSION BY SNA 1 COMMERCIAL ON SUSTAINABILITY REVIEW FOR SNAPPER 1 3 interests. The Minister cannot seriously consider the suggestion by some in the recreational sector that there should be a reallocation of catch by an increase to the recreational allowance only. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote John H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2017 at 10:42am
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LegaSea is not doing nothing.  See our Annual Report

The profile of recreational fishing in NZ has never been higher.
We supported a feature film on Recreational fishing on the Kiapara Harbour called THE CATCH on in cinemas now.  Last night there was an hour long ITM Fishing Show featuring LegaSea on prime time TV1 and a paid TV ad.

We have a Fish Care campaign starting soon and have been talking to politicians in the build up to election year. 

What you can do is sign up as a LegaSea Legend to make LegaSea more effective.

Or keep up to date with WHAT IS BEING DONE by subscribing for free
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So that is the commercial view we hear all the time.

What followed was the Minister not only "seriously considered the suggestion by some in the recreational sector that there should be a reallocation of catch by an increase to the recreational allowance only"  But he increase the recreational allowance in snapper 1 by 500 t and the commercial catch by zero.

In addition he reduced the recreational bag snapper 1 bag limit and increased the size limit to ensure the new allowance was not exceeded.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2017 at 11:06am
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Thanks John but there still apperas he is under no obligation to allow for recreational catch until we become stakeholders,imo pay a fee of some sort. Why is legasea so resistance to a fee when it has benefits overseas?not just in stock numbers but faccilties at ramps etc policing/mpi officers 

dropped us 2 increased our size at the same time increased mortality rate?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote John H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2017 at 11:18am
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Because the majority of LegaSea supporters and fishers on this thread do not support a compulsory saltwater fishing licence.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote v8-coupe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2017 at 11:37am
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Originally posted by John H John H wrote:

]

The 2014/15 annual report from the WA Department of fisheries says.
The amount the Government spent on managing commercial fishing and aquaculture around the State was $76 million.

The amount the Government spent on managing recreational fishing around the State was $18 million. (corrected)

" 752,000 was number of West Australians estimated to have fished recreationally in the reporting period. Recreational fishing in Western Australia continues to have considerable social value as a popular WA lifestyle activity.

" 170,094 was the number of recreational fishing licences we issued for specific recreational fishing activities. All revenue raised from licence fees goes back into recreational fishing management."

It is not clear how much commercial fishers pay towards fisheries management.



"It is not clear how much commercial fishers pay towards fisheries management".
Nothing. The end user/consumer eventually covers the cost.
Any payments made by commercial fishers for compliance, research, licenses et al, just like any business can be claimed back. Yeah yeah. I know, they still have to earn the money first. Unlike the rec fisher who pays GST on everything with no way to claim anything back. Unless they are putting it through their business of course. That is why I get angry when businesses claim they pay GST and other compliance costs. They do not.
The end user/consumer does.
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Originally posted by MightyBoosh MightyBoosh wrote:

So, we do nothing now and in XX years time when the fishery has collapsed, say damn, we should have tried harder. Not saying a license is the right answer, but for the cost of a day's fuel, I'd be willing to give it a go provided there was a meaningful reduction in inshore commercial catch. 

"We" as recreational anglers always seem to be moaning about a reduction in fish stocks, but don't want to do anything about it. 


Probably because everytime a solution is mooted it is the rec sector that pays or makes the sacrifices in the end. If you keep voluntarily conceding points then you will always lose. Eventually, just as in life, you have to draw a line in the sand or lose everything. Licenses will solve nothing. There will be a feel good moment/factor for a while. However in the end it will be hijacked and will be another round lost to the comms and bureaucrats.
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Originally posted by v8-coupe v8-coupe wrote:

Originally posted by MightyBoosh MightyBoosh wrote:

So, we do nothing now and in XX years time when the fishery has collapsed, say damn, we should have tried harder. Not saying a license is the right answer, but for the cost of a day's fuel, I'd be willing to give it a go provided there was a meaningful reduction in inshore commercial catch. 

"We" as recreational anglers always seem to be moaning about a reduction in fish stocks, but don't want to do anything about it. 


Probably because everytime a solution is mooted it is the rec sector that pays or makes the sacrifices in the end. If you keep voluntarily conceding points then you will always lose. Eventually, just as in life, you have to draw a line in the sand or lose everything. Licenses will solve nothing. There will be a feel good moment/factor for a while. However in the end it will be hijacked and will be another round lost to the comms and bureaucrats.
What has been achieved in the last 4yrs for reccs?? increase in snapper size and reduction in bag limits increase in kingfish size,yeah forgot that one. comms still in the same areas doing the same thing. What will seachange recommendations achieve?nil as it now goes to DOC/MPI for consideration. Give it 5/10 yrs and we will still talking here about the same old and fees will come in like it or not!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2017 at 2:05pm
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Assume we all had compulsory recreational licence. Then what. Firstly the government would provide us with a hand picked body of "capable"  people to administer the process. We currently have MPI and whats to say the new lot would make MPI look like saints.

So by having a licence we would have signed our independence over to the Govt. Our voice would be shut down. And how long would it take for those administering the licence to start doing sweetheart deals on our behalf and sell us down the river.?

If the authorities really want a healthy & growing fishery,then cut catch and stop the high waste of undersize fish.
But because this has not been done it seems clear that a healthy fishery is not on the agenda.

The irony of dumping healthy undersize is twofold.
Firstly N.Z is a net importer of small fish to meet the growing demand. And we dump ours.!

Secondly dumping makes the concept of size limit a total sham.

Its O.K to dump & waste undersize ,as long as they are not sold ,or more importantly not seen by the public.
So in effect size limits are only a paper exercise and in reality do not exist,because they dont protect the small fish in any way.

Having a healthy fishery inshore is way more complex and important than a having a licence.

And thirdly  we constantly hear that the numbers of recreational fishers are steadily growing,more fish are caught, and this is always used against us and was partly instrumental in our snapper cuts.
Where is the proof of this. Where is that proof that there are more recreational now. This needs to be challenged.
I personally dont accept this. I see far fewer boats on the Hauraki gulf  now than i saw 10 years ago.
And furthermore back then it was common not to get a parking space the ramp. Today there are almost always empty parks,often lots. That to me would indicate less fishers and not more as is claimed.

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Originally posted by John H John H wrote:

]Thanks for you input FA

What was the reaction of anglers to the reduction in Herring bag limit last year?

 Herring is the most common species in recreational catch in WA. There has just been a reduction in the recreational bag limit from 30 per person to 12. This was supported by the paid recreational reps from RecFish west.  Some commercial restrictions were also introduced on the use of G traps.  The decision was based on a stock assessment and a Political decision by the Minister. As far as I can see no compensation was paid to commercial fishers. It is not clear how a Fishing Licence helped in the allocation process.


The reduction in herring bag limits was I believe generally acknowledged by most as acceptable.  The original 30 herring per person per day in the most part was considered as excessive and more than most would ever really wish to take per day.  Whilst some thought the reduction to 12 was a bit harsh the reduction was not strongly opposed.  The links below give you some idea of the feedback from the locals.

http://fishwrecked.com/forum/herring-bag-limit-be-cut

http://fishwrecked.com/forum/bugger-herring-down-12-day

Like you I can find no mention of compensation paid to the commercial fishers so I am unable to comment whether some form of compensation was paid on not.  It may be the case that the comms were not prevented from fishing for herring but were stopped from using G traps to take herring.

With respect to your comment that it is not clear how a Fishing Licence helped in the allocation process I haven't seen a direct reference to this either.  However the licence fees do provide funding for research so it is very possible that the revenue raised from licence fees ultimately contributed to an improved fishery through research funding assistance.

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Originally posted by letsgetem letsgetem wrote:

Good discussion. Makes you think.
 
..........
For example - in a previous post...."in WA. There has just been a reduction in the recreational bag limit from 30 per person to 12. This was supported by the paid recreational reps from RecFish west.". I bet recreational fishers didn't agree with that........... 

In fact the majority did.  Have a look at the link below.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2017 at 4:34pm
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cirrus," Our voice would be shut down." really we have a voice??who and are they listening to?
"If the authorities really want a healthy & growing fishery,then cut catch and stop the high waste of undersize fish. " commercial land all catch and reccs drop back to 27cm?
"
And thirdly  we constantly hear that the numbers of recreational fishers are steadily growing,more fish are caught, and this is always used against us and was partly instrumental in our snapper cuts.
Where is the proof of this. Where is that proof that there are more recreational now. This needs to be challenged."   http://www.nzmrf.org.nz/files/New-Zealand-Fishing-Economic-Report.pdf
The value chain of recreational fishing The full technical report for this survey details that on an annual basis more than 700,000 people, residents and international visitors, fish in the sea.     page 10

So with all that info now John you still think we have a voice??nah because we do not own the stock just merely caretakers if you like. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote John H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2017 at 5:54pm
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So what are you saying?  That recreational fishers need their own quota?  A fixed amount of the Total Allowable Catch?  Gosh Sanford would love that.  They have been demanding that for as long as I can remember.  That is what Soundings and the proposals from the Recreational Fishing Council and MAF came up with in 2000.  That is what NZSFC fought against in the High Court, the Court of Appeal and Eventually the Supreme Court.

I have been working in fisheries management for 35 years and have seen huge changes in the strength and capacity of recreational fishers to be represented at all levels in the process.  Political, media, industry partners, science meetings, submission writing, spacial planning etc.  However we don't run these processes and can't always control the outcome.  You seem to be quick to focus on the negatives only.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2017 at 6:16pm
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show me the positives

early 1970s when the barrier was getting discovered  18 to 20lb snapper dragged ashore for bbqs that many fish just left for the birds walkers tieing up broken islands and destroying the crayfish same as kawau island comms hammering fairchild reef area
The dropping of the winter/summer trawl lines now allowed right down to tiri across to happy jacks,introduction of seiners taking bait fish in kawau bay etc  call that positive?? the destruction of snapper in the Bay of islands by hermes group. positive?
Longliners allowed right in to reccs fishing areas 1st april to 30th september. positive?
netters around browns island catching tope etc for local markets. positive?? 
sorry John  but I think its all negative
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the only positive that i've seen is that people are more aware of the issues. i suppose that's a start, but as to actual positive change, still waiting.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote John H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2017 at 9:13pm
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So it got bad in the 1980s. Muldoon was subsidising new fishing boats that did not go offshore but thrashed inshore stocks. the Quota System was introduced in 1986 to turn it around. The Quota Appeal Authority undid most of the catch reductions that were made.
Cabinet did not sign off Moyles promise.

Snapper and many other species were at a low point in many areas in the mid 1990s.  I can show rebuilds in kahawai, kingfish, snapper 1, snapper 8 (west coast), snapper 7 (top of the SI), and marlin has been kept recreational only since then.  There is now much more focus on protected species and the ecosystem but more work is needed. There are now seasonal closures to all commercial fishing in the inner Gulf and Bay of Islands. 

Commercial fishers are under more pressure than ever to prove to consumers that their methods are sustainable and the Harvest Strategy Standard signed off by the Minister moved the target for species like snapper from 20% unfished Biomass to 40% unfished Biomass.  The target for Kahawai is 63% unfished biomass.

International best practice in developed countries is moving toward greater recognition of non-commercial fishing.

Sure there is more to do.  But don't say nothing has changed in the last 10 years.
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