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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Alan L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2021 at 7:56pm
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Originally posted by Phantom Menace Phantom Menace wrote:

Someone on twitter who is a Tesla fan suggested I should add a Powerwall to the mix at home.  A powerwall battery is $14,100 plus installation.  My power bill will average well under $20 per week but if I assume:
* no power from the grid is needed i.e. I run purely off solar stored in the battery
* $20 per week savings
* $14,100 price

It is more than 13 years before I have paid back the price of the battery.

In reality I will use some power from the grid and my weekly average bill at the moment will be well under $20 so that 13 years is optimistic.
My gut feeling is this Govt particularly and maybe others, will end up having to subsidise both solar and EVs to get the uptake their figures require. Most people I am guessing won't want to stump up cash sums (if they can) for a pay back 10 yrs down the track.
I would not want to be the guy that just funded solar on my house to find it subsidised a yr later. You would be a bit p....d about that.
It is something like a Catch 22.
Just put another few more $B on the debt tab. Easier out and looks better politically - meeting targets, no matter what.
Talk is cheap. How many of the greens will put their own cash where their mouth is.
Alan
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote kingiFiddla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2021 at 8:08pm
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I can't put my mouse on it now but a few months back a company in Aus launched a domestic solar lease/subscription service. They instal and own the systems and lease it back to home owners at a set price/lease fee/subscription fee and after a set number of years the fees stop and the system is then the home owners. They did a soft launch in one city or state, were so swamped with uptake they suspended the launches in other states so they could concentrate solely on meeting the demand in the one place they launched.

There are also subscription services for EV cars in Aus now too. I don't know how they differ or if they are treated differently (from a taxation perspective) than lease arrangements.

Interesting ways to allow private enterprise to fund the roll-outs.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Reel Deal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2021 at 8:51pm
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fiddler. Here is one for you to research. SolarEdge 5KW Inverter w/ EV Charger & Optimizers (6.75KW) 
The gods do not subtract from the allotted span of men's lives the hours spent on fishing - Assyrian Proverb
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kevin.S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2021 at 10:15pm
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Originally posted by Phantom Menace Phantom Menace wrote:

Someone on twitter who is a Tesla fan suggested I should add a Powerwall to the mix at home.  A powerwall battery is $14,100 plus installation.  My power bill will average well under $20 per week but if I assume:
* no power from the grid is needed i.e. I run purely off solar stored in the battery
* $20 per week savings
* $14,100 price

It is more than 13 years before I have paid back the price of the battery.

In reality I will use some power from the grid and my weekly average bill at the moment will be well under $20 so that 13 years is optimistic.

But would the battery even have a lifespan of 13 years?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Alan L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 8:47am
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Originally posted by kingiFiddla kingiFiddla wrote:

I can't put my mouse on it now but a few months back a company in Aus launched a domestic solar lease/subscription service. They instal and own the systems and lease it back to home owners at a set price/lease fee/subscription fee and after a set number of years the fees stop and the system is then the home owners. They did a soft launch in one city or state, were so swamped with uptake they suspended the launches in other states so they could concentrate solely on meeting the demand in the one place they launched.

There are also subscription services for EV cars in Aus now too. I don't know how they differ or if they are treated differently (from a taxation perspective) than lease arrangements.

Interesting ways to allow private enterprise to fund the roll-outs.

The aussies are a bit ahead of us there. I do know they have had some heavily subsidised state roll outs of hybrid systems.
I can't see the programme here working unless something similar.
Half our houses are no longer owner occupied. I can't see landlords installing solar so the tenants can get cheap power. Then take the other half of dwellings - how many 1st home buyers, young families etc will have $10-15k to throw at an installation that will pay back a decade later. My guess is , left to its own devices you would be lucky to get 20-25% uptake. It is going to need a significant $ intervention I suspect and probably same for EVs.
Alan
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Fraser Hocks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 8:59am
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Yea I was living in Western Australia back in 2009 and got an offer from a firm doing that least offer.  We were in the throes of looking at moving to NZ, so didn't consider it. 

Have to say that I'm not so convinced its a great idea for people such as ourselves, living in the deep south of NZ.  Works well in Aus as there big power demand is on heat pumps to cool their houses when the sun is high and and solar cells can produce a lot. Down here our big demand is when its bitterly cold and the sun is no where to be seen.   
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote kingiFiddla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 9:13am
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Reel, one word of advice...RUN


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Reel Deal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 1:25pm
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yeah fiddler run indeed, I’m not progressing with the home solar EV charger options at this time due to not having a EV car £. Also from the solar companies that offer it even they say they have been to conferences etc or suppliers been telling them there are some great inverter performance increase, price drop, with built in speed EV chargers making faster than the few hours now. A bit bleeding edge and R&D evolving at the mo. So will wait a little longer. Panels will prob happen before Batteries.

Alan L the Aussies home solar is almost standard. Some communities nearly every house has them. The best offering I saw was a 5Kw 18 panel grid connected system for AUD$3999. 

I’m not sure about the further south panels don’t stack up. They have them in Antartica. You don’t need hot sun to produce power it just maxes the output. You just need a bigger panel system to accomodate your needs.

When I was spending stints in the jungle we would fell a tree to get light by camp and a small panel the size of a iPad would charge sat phones, laptops, torches etc. we also had a wind up battery power pack if needed. 

Grid power may not be the path NZ takes in the future. 


The gods do not subtract from the allotted span of men's lives the hours spent on fishing - Assyrian Proverb
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Alan L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 2:02pm
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"Alan L the Aussies home solar is almost standard. Some communities nearly every house has them. The best offering I saw was a 5Kw 18 panel grid connected system for AUD$3999. "

Yep - they were heavily subsidising them a decade ago. Got the jump on us there.
As I said earlier - that is the low hanging fruit and we need to pick some of it. But I very much doubt it will happen without big subsidies. So anyone who figures that out will wait. I would be peeved if I jumped in and installed a hybrid system and then my neighbour gets subsidised to do same. 
Expect a few more $B to be put on the tab.
Alan

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Alan L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 2:07pm
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"I’m not sure about the further south panels don’t stack up. They have them in Antartica. You don’t need hot sun to produce power it just maxes the output. You just need a bigger panel system to accomodate your needs."

There is an issue as you go further south - the angle of the sun and the sunlight hrs (short in winter). It does become less efficient. Yes it can be done in Antarctica - but quite inefficient in the overall scheme. But as you say - chucking more panels in the mix can compensate to some extent - but from a personal payback point of view, it does get harder.
When you do the calcs for the panel set up, the latitude is part of the calc.
Alan
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Pcj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 2:55pm
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Solar does not need direct sunlight it works off the UV.Germany isn’t known for its particularly sunny weather and has many cloudy days. Yet, it is the world’s leader in solar energy use; evidence that, even with a reduced productivity, solar panels are worth the investment, both for individuals and businesses.

I use to install solarhart hot water solar system.The system ran  around tank ,which housed the water like a normal hot water cylinder thru the panels  filled with glycol.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote kingiFiddla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 4:22pm
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Reel, it's your money, you don't have to justify any decision to us, but if you don't mind, can you please detail the system you chose, why you chose it, what the numbers look like, and how bad they would have had to look for you to decide against it? Ta.

I see absolutely nothing in the proposal you linked to that makes me think it's a good idea for us. In fact, I see red flags and would have a large list of questions for that vendor. But that's just me and everyone's mileage may vary.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote kingiFiddla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 4:25pm
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Alan, it sure is going to be interesting when the govt releases its plans in December.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Alan L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 7:01pm
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Originally posted by kingiFiddla kingiFiddla wrote:

Alan, it sure is going to be interesting when the govt releases its plans in December.

The solar will work in deep south, for sure. And it doesn't need clear sunny day - low cloud is a problem but high cloud drops it by a small amount. But the pay back numbers will not be so favourable in the deep south as compared to far north.  

I'm picking Jacinda is hell bent on 100% renewable, by 2030 - irrespective of the cost or any advice. It is her nuclear moment and she has put her name to it. I don't think anything else matters for her.
The general estimate for the hydro pumping ( Lake Onslow) is $4B. All the industry experts (power COs) are against it, as was the Climate report.  That of course will be well below the final cost - we know how that works. Sell it short and call the rest over-runs. Transmission Gully.
The other problem with it is that it is in the deep south. Miles from where the consumption is - same issue for Tiwai. We don't have capacity to shift Tiwai power across the Strait. So add a few more $B.
Another option under review which makes a bit more sense is Taupo. They are looking at running the levels of the lake down considerably lower than current limits - using the variation as battery storage.
It is a tough nut to crack and problems coming from all angles. You just hope for some common sense prevailing rather than a grand standing photo-op result. We are talking about 5-10% gas production at peak demands. Most of our GHG is from farming. Fonterra is 20% of our emissions.
Our deficit used to be around $40B and Govts were committed to keeping at that level relative to GDP.  We are now over $100B and climbing by about $0.5-1B/week.  Add in all Jacinda's wish lists and it gets scary. Even our water infrastructure rebuild is costed at around $100B
Not sure I want to be here in the next 10-20 yrs. May follow Rainbow out the door.
Alan
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote kingiFiddla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2021 at 9:06am
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America is about to try and inflate its way out of or at least delay its debt trap now that exporting inflation to other countries isn't working so well. Hold onto your hats everyone. The next few years are going to be a wild ride.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote letsgetem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2021 at 11:28am
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I too am very worried at this governments casual spending of huge $$ that we dont have. I would have thought the prudent thing when Covid hit, would be to cut spending massively - ie austerity now. The proposed spend of about $800M on a walking and cycle bridge, is ludicrous.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2021 at 1:08pm
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Originally posted by letsgetem letsgetem wrote:

I too am very worried at this governments casual spending of huge $$ that we dont have. I would have thought the prudent thing when Covid hit, would be to cut spending massively - ie austerity now. The proposed spend of about $800M on a walking and cycle bridge, is ludicrous.


Cut spending and taxes for economic recovery.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Schampy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2021 at 1:09pm
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It certainly is ludicrous..... Even the cyclists don't want it.... They know they would have to use it... should be an interesting watch over winter. Cant wait.



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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote kingiFiddla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2021 at 1:23pm
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Perhaps it's only ludicrous because we haven't yet seen how crazy the future plans are going to be. When they are released and it calls for price/tax hikes and congestion fees so high it forces people onto bikes, we'll see why they 'wasted' so much money on catering to two-wheel and no-wheel modes of transport.

#rollOnDecember

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote SaltyC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2021 at 1:32pm
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Yes, the CEO of Waka Kotahi told a parliamentary select committee this week that are deliberately creating traffic flow restrictions to create traffic queues and thereby try to force people out of their cars. They have 20 such "test" constrictions in place around NZ at the moment and intend to increase them.

So, basically, making things worse for motorists even with the existing infrastructure just for their politcal "4 wheels bad" agenda.
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