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ELECTRIC VEHICLES (EVS)

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Reel Deal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2021 at 7:04pm
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I heard on the radio last week that it takes more electricity to make hydrogen than it does to power EVs…..maybe worth a google research to confirm. 
The gods do not subtract from the allotted span of men's lives the hours spent on fishing - Assyrian Proverb
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Alan L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2021 at 7:45pm
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PCJ - fuel cells are really expensive bits of kit. High tech. They probably don't have much of a future except in specialised applications.
RD - yes - the cost of producing H is always been the issue. The energy equation is not in favour of the process. This has been the fundamental problem from day dot.  I can remember doing the numbers in the 70s and wondering if H was a goer. We had a fuel crisis in the 70s. You can calculate it from Chem equations. The numbers don't add up. Until you have a zero FF edict. And have to find alternatives. The thing most take for granted is the energy value of liquid FF. Really hard to replace.
But - if you have access to the likes of Tiwai capacity, or maybe solar, then H is a possibility. What the CBJ guy was saying is there is no way EVs are going to work at an industrial level. He gives really good reasons why - they have been down that track. H beats it pants down, and they are up and running.
Regard
Alan

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Big -Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2021 at 8:24pm
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If we had abundant cheap electricity, then producing hydrogen so we had better range cars, with quick refueling capabilities might be an option. Efficiency is less of an issue if you have abundant cheap energy.

Another issue is the longevity of ev motors. Standard electric motors deal to bearings, these ev motors spin much faster, and a bearing collapse would be curtains for the motor.
you can't fix an idiot with duct tape, but it does muffle them for a while...
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Originally posted by Big -Dave Big -Dave wrote:

If we had abundant cheap electricity, then producing hydrogen so we had better range cars, with quick refueling capabilities might be an option. Efficiency is less of an issue if you have abundant cheap energy.

Another issue is the longevity of ev motors. Standard electric motors deal to bearings, these ev motors spin much faster, and a bearing collapse would be curtains for the motor.

Looks as if that may be the future use of Tiwai Point once the smelter is closed. 
Hydrogen production. Thumbs Up
That is if any of the bureaucrats can get their act together. Confused
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Originally posted by NZTurtle NZTurtle wrote:

And since I can now log in re Prius a few pages back...

It was a nz new hybrid and bloody good - series 3 from 2005 I think. Sold in 2012 as we needed a different vehicle.  Even better when in Auckland and that bloody traffic - 3.3l/100km.

Highy reliable, no battery issues at 146k km, nice to drive, good safety.

Dave, after 7 years was the battery due to be replaced, I think they were Ni-Cads (Nickel Cadmium) ...  I heard they were about $8K to replace back in 2005???
"The sea, once it casts its spell, holds one in its net of wonder forever." - Jacques Cousteau
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That grid battery in Oz took about three days to burn out and took another of the batteries with it. People don't seem to realise that trying to starve these burning batteries of oxygen when they basically create their own means an uphill battle trying to cool them down enough to arrest thermal runaway, especially when just leaving them to burn through their fuel creates even more danger.

But it's OK, because the govt tells us technology will save us from these things eventually, and will also save us from the impending and perfectly predictable enviro nightmare. Yet, somehow, technology won't come up with better scrubbers for coal generation.

Phark em. Pahrk em all.
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Originally posted by kingiFiddla kingiFiddla wrote:


Phark em. Pahrk em all.

Yip its what we are doing to future generations by not making an effort  Thumbs Up
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Such is the cult of the woke, anyone not subscribing to their mental illness is not part of their solution thus a problem rather than a dissenting voice worthy of objective scrutiny.

It's precisely why I can't be @rsed addressing such *****ers any more. It's a circle jerk of self and agenda affirmation. A cult, and nothing more. Perfectly fine when it doesn't have opportunity costs for the very thing these muppets are so desperate to tell us they stand for. But trying to explain to them their need to be seen to be doing something is actually less important than doing the right thing, is an exercise in futility that I'm well passed bothering with.
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Originally posted by kingiFiddla kingiFiddla wrote:

Such is the cult of the woke, anyone not prescribing to their mental illness is not for their agenda thus against it.

It's precisely why I can't be @rsed addressing such *****ers any more. It's a circular circle jerk of self and agenda affirmation. A cult, and nothing more.

Hmmm. If you can’t be be bothered addressing this side of the woke cult, what in your opinion should be done now to address our current climate crisis? Any alternatives?
I’m not trying to stir things up, I’m genuinely interested. I - personally - have high hopes in green hydrogen.
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I have been holding hopes for H2 also. Less likely via fuel cells I think - fragile and very expensive and easily stuffed. Needs high quality distilled water, among other exotics. So niche possibilities, at a cost. 
Compressed H2 I suspect is the future at least for heavy vehicles - industrial and long haul lorries. EVs won't and don't cut it in that niche. Not enough battery capacity, the batteries will weigh several tonnes - which means redesigning the whole rig to support the extra weight. And long down time charging them. Yes, you can 'rapid' charge them, but no good for battery life. And still long down time relatively. Those big machines need to work long hrs - recoup capital. Not like a car that can sit o/night charging for next day. So H2 offers lots for that sector. Some experimental machinery already operating. And the construction costs are no different to todays costs - basically adapting engines already in use.
The one thing that perplexes me about the 'green' H scenario is the emissions. Water vapour. Basically about 9kg water vapour/kg H2. Water vapour is our strongest GHG.
So if we convert a good chunk of our vehicle fleets to H2, what happens to our GHG emissions. Basically the only 2 contenders are EVs and H2. But the H2 model takes liquid water (non- GHG) and converts it to water vapour - strong GHG.
I am just hoping this is not another greenwash exercise. Remember biofuels? Going to save the planet. The end result was predictable. A disaster for the planet. Total greenwash. Except in very limited circumstances.
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There is an Australian company who are making a hydrogen based storage system for solar power solutions for houses.  If that ever got affordable ($30k and very limited supply at the moment) it could be enough to convince me to go off grid and use solar power. 
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" a number of electric-vehicle makers have warned owners not to leave the cars charging unattended in certain circumstances, or sitting fully charged in garages."

Great, a car that you can't put in a garage and have to stand and watch while it charges for several hours.  And they wonder why EV uptake is low.
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Originally posted by e.m.p! e.m.p! wrote:

Originally posted by kingiFiddla kingiFiddla wrote:

Such is the cult of the woke, anyone not prescribing to their mental illness is not for their agenda thus against it.

It's precisely why I can't be @rsed addressing such *****ers any more. It's a circular circle jerk of self and agenda affirmation. A cult, and nothing more.

Hmmm. If you can’t be be bothered addressing this side of the woke cult, what in your opinion should be done now to address our current climate crisis? Any alternatives?
I’m not trying to stir things up, I’m genuinely interested. I - personally - have high hopes in green hydrogen.


What are you doing is the real question?
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Originally posted by Catchelot Catchelot wrote:

Originally posted by NZTurtle NZTurtle wrote:

And since I can now log in re Prius a few pages back...

It was a nz new hybrid and bloody good - series 3 from 2005 I think. Sold in 2012 as we needed a different vehicle.  Even better when in Auckland and that bloody traffic - 3.3l/100km.

Highy reliable, no battery issues at 146k km, nice to drive, good safety.

Dave, after 7 years was the battery due to be replaced, I think they were Ni-Cads (Nickel Cadmium) ...  I heard they were about $8K to replace back in 2005???

Hi Al, didnt have any issues with battery at that stage. Through the research I had done at the time though, it was possible to replace cells rather than the whole thing.
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Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Originally posted by e.m.p! e.m.p! wrote:

Originally posted by kingiFiddla kingiFiddla wrote:

Such is the cult of the woke, anyone not prescribing to their mental illness is not for their agenda thus against it.

It's precisely why I can't be @rsed addressing such *****ers any more. It's a circular circle jerk of self and agenda affirmation. A cult, and nothing more.

Hmmm. If you can’t be be bothered addressing this side of the woke cult, what in your opinion should be done now to address our current climate crisis? Any alternatives?
I’m not trying to stir things up, I’m genuinely interested. I - personally - have high hopes in green hydrogen.


What are you doing is the real question?

Is it? I do not have an alternative solution, so I’m a sheep and follow along with the herd. As in avoiding unnecessary travel, car sharing, I do have a PV setup on my roof, heating via wood burner, etc. But also use a stinky 2 stroke on my dinghy which is not necessary per se, but keeps me sane.
I’d be happy to continue doing things I can do to reduce my footprint, but also have to go with what the market offers.
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There are EVs you can purchase and you can rid yourself of the 2 stroke. You can fish off the rocks with gear that probably has a decent C02 footprint too.
You see until those who really believe the end is coming actually do something, change the “we” to “I” there is no point in taking the moral high ground.
Or you actually don’t believe it.
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Oh no, I think there’s been a misunderstanding. I wasn’t trying to take the moral high ground nor did I want to stir things up. I probably shouldn’t have quoted KF in the first place, my apologies.
I’m interested if anyone sees a light at the end of the the tunnel though. As long as the industry (energy, transport, etc.) are more interested in their RoI we’ll have to gobble up what they feed us. Toyota was banking on hydrogen and invested heavily a couple of years ago - so why did they abandon a promising technology and go back to EV? Why are German car manufacturers so reluctant to produce EVs? I have a lot of questions (but not a lot of insights), so maybe there is an alternative, but no one from an industry has figured out how to monetise it…
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Well emp, to help you out - in your gracious explanation.
Toyota have not abandoned H. They are currently testing a H powered race car. My guess is they are watching where the wind blows - but they definitely still have a foot in the H camp.
As for German manufacturers, they are all heading to EVs. Porsche and Audi both have 100% EVs in the market. BMW not far behind at a guess. Audi have said they will stop developing ICEs in the next yr or two.
Basically these guys will go where the markets dictate. If the options are dearer than ICEs they will make them - if Govts dictate they should, or subsidise the difference. If not, they basically have to protect themselves by producing what consumers want to buy.
Apparently our Govts latest Feebate scheme has increased EV sales by about 1500 units last month. And increased ute sales by an even bigger margin.
Regards
Alan 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2021 at 8:25pm
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Yes a good sane reply but you did say there was a current climate crisis so I assumed you would want to do something about it….but yes I was being presumptuous my bad.
Like Alan said I have no questions about what car manufacturers do as they do what their particular market demands. I am sure they play around in the R&D departments as they have for many years.
There clearly is a demand for cleaner fuels but there is a giant space between the demand, the rhetoric and the reality.
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