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DOC Eco nazis strike again

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Flyfishboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: DOC Eco nazis strike again
    Posted: 04 Mar 2013 at 4:57pm
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Not content with smothering the bush with 1080 DOC zealots are now targeting trout with Rotenone. Described as an "experiment" trout have been eradicated in some Wellington small streams. Listen to them proudly proclaim their massacre.

http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/aft/aft-20130304-1532-our_changing_world_-_trout_eradication_at_zealandia-048.mp3
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Southern_Jez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2013 at 5:11pm
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Not every cares about our favourite sportfish like we do. I don't agree with DOC on this one, but I can not deny that trout are an invasive species that have decimated our natural stocks of freshwater Koura and Native trout (which in turn spawn whitebait).

I personally wont shed a tear for a few small streams, they couldnt possibly continue this action outside a select area as the opposition would be massive. But at the end of the day, trout are not native, and have had a huge impact on native species.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Te Awa Kairangi Angler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2013 at 10:29pm
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Zealandia is a wildlife sanctuary - not a trout fishery! It's right that trout are removed from here, like other introduced predators. Banded kokopu are a threatened galaxiid species and are thriving in the absence of trout. That's what you should be alarmed about: how well native galaxiidae do without their major predator. Trout have impacted negatively on galaxiidae in a huge way. Removing trout from a selected few waters to enhance galaxiidae will not ruin your trout fishing. On the contrary, you could then shed some responsibility for the over zealous actions of our early trout liberators. The choice is simple. Better manage our most threatened galaxiidae or watch them move closer to extinction
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Mike.Thomas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 11:17am
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I for one remember that old chestnut being used to justify removing trout from one of the Kai Iwi lakes, but as soon as they removed the trout the Galaxiid population crashed! Turned out the trout were feeding on the mosquito fish and once the mosquito fish had no predators the population increased and they ate the fry of the Galaxiid.
The removal of trout from the Zeelandia park only works for the Galaxiid becouse they poisoned everything including the natives and then once the poison is dispersed you can re introduce only the species you want. Would not work in most environments but perfect for the isolated Zealandia.
All the best.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote o Neill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 1:03pm
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Putting the cost aside would have electro fishing have been a better option? Fish released into another waterway and not poison the water they are trying to protect afterall I assume these small streams flow somewhere?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Zambezi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 1:28pm
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too a lake, that can be isolated?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote o Neill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 1:39pm
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A local river could have benefitted. (Hutt).
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Flyfishboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 3:51pm
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The key words and motives here are "eradication" and "experiment". The Eco nazis have always advocated "eradication" their ideal would be to have NZ go back to pre European settlement. Well guess what we live in a modified environment and I say to them get used to it. Just because an organism isn't "native" doesn't mean it's a pest. So we eradicate cows? Oak trees? Ryegrass? Clover? I think you get my drift. And if you think trout could'nt be regarded as a pest think Canada Geese, now gazetted as a pest species. O Neil nailed it by saying that the trout within Zelandia could have been relocated. A kids fish out pond? In fact a chance was missed Zelandia could have been people friendly by stocking the reservoir which used to be Karori water supply with the trout now deceased. And this " experiment" in their eyes a success, could be rolled out to some South Island streams.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote o Neill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 4:32pm
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Did the local f and G know about this? if not why not and if not the DOC language has a sinister message to other waterways and their fish populations. is it Zealandia that Morgan sponsor's if so with his funds DOC could have a new ally and a dangerous one. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Southern_Jez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 4:59pm
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Yes DOC could have gone about it better, perhaps some more tender words or explanations as to why they did this would have been appropriate (Zealandia news release here: http://www.visitzealandia.com/news-item/recovery-of-native-fish-at-zealandia/ ). If this is done in a larger waterway, there will be publicity and protests, and I will be in those protests pushing back against the destruction of a fishery I take many many hours of enjoyment from. 

However, until then I won't lose sleep over the management of a privately managed stream (only 80% of waterways in NZ are covered by Queens Chain), in a privately managed park that is designed to give a representation of a pre-European New Zealand.

Disclaimer: By "Privately managed" I refer to the fact it is run by a charitable trust, not DOC or other Govt department.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote o Neill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 5:56pm
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So Zealandia could have sought other options for the fish to be removed rather than just allowing DOC to be jury and executioner, DOC have already done this in larger waterways, Whitby lakes as a local Wellington example,  where they have sought to destroy local sportsfish populations and be judge, jury and executioner and if DOC has no jurisdiction over the waters and the fish why were they allowed a concent order to poison the water? Do these streams start and stop within the Zealandia boundaries or do they flow into public land?  The fish in waterways should be getting better protection from those within DOC who live with this idea of creating a pre human land.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote long john Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 8:20pm
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Good work DOCClap The idea is to make it a native only environ so trout have gotta go. 'Tis a pity it's not feasable on a larger scale but technology is always improving
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Mike.Thomas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 9:02pm
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Originally posted by o Neill o Neill wrote:

Did the local f and G know about this? if not why not and if not the DOC language has a sinister message to other waterways and their fish populations. is it Zealandia that Morgan sponsor's if so with his funds DOC could have a new ally and a dangerous one. 

Not sure but from memory I think Fish and Game were quite supportive of the zealandia idea. It is after all supposed to be a slice of how NZ used to be before the introduced species, shame they could not clone some NZ Grayling, now they would be worth fishing forThumbs Up.
All the best.
Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 10:13pm
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Originally posted by Mike.Thomas Mike.Thomas wrote:

I for one remember that old chestnut being used to justify removing trout from one of the Kai Iwi lakes, but as soon as they removed the trout the Galaxiid population crashed! Turned out the trout were feeding on the mosquito fish and once the mosquito fish had no predators the population increased and they ate the fry of the Galaxiid.
All the best.
Mike
 
We cant really blame the pioneers for introducing a host of animals.   They did not know any better.    One hundered years on one can expect the new  eco warrior brigade to have a much better grasp of how complex our ecolocial setting has become.    Well judging by the above and below examples they have learnt very little.     Make no mistake the trial at Zealandia has a much more sinister purpose.
Below is a letter I sent to my local paper.    They back Margan and did not publish it.
Rainbow
 

Demon Cats

Most people working in conservation sooner or later come to the realisation that much of this country’s biota is on life support.   The threats our native plants and animals face are so complex, so interactive and so 3-dymentional that one can only shake one’s head at the utter naivety of Gareth Morgan’s one-track urban cat eradication pipe dream.   He may be a brilliant economist and certainly has made a pile of money, some of which he now wants to put to work for conservation (such as the mouse eradication programme on one of our subantarctic islands), which is to be applauded. 

It is true that hungry cats can have a devastating impact on native wildlife such as the remnant kakapo population on Steward Island and some mainland seabird breeding colonies.   While the latter threat can be controlled through a dedicated trapping/poison programme the average feral cat has to scratch for a living and is most likely surviving on mice, rats, rabbits, introduced birds rather than singling out native species. The mouse it eats can no longer devour native insects or seeds of native plants.   The rat it kills can no longer eat skinks or rob nests of native birds or kill their fledgling young.   The rabbits it bounces on helps to keep the bunny population from exploding and some of the introduced birds it catches may be serious competitors to native birds occupying a similar ecological niche.  

 

While the above examples are overly simplistic they do serve as examples of how complex and ongoing the ecological interaction between our native and the introduced species really is and that is without expanding this sad tale to stoats, opossums, new diseases and the widespread habitat destruction in the name of progress.  

 

Demonising domestic moggies might give some urban greenies a warm, fuzzy feeling and a newly discovered sense of patriotism but it also nicely diverts our attention from the stark warning so eloquently put by Sir David Attenborough in the same paper that the exploding human population has become the greatest threat to life on earth, including our own.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote SpringCreeky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 10:30pm
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I think Te Awa Kairangi Angler has nailed it on the head. We certainly need to put some effort into protecting our endangered Galaxiid species even at the expense of trout. Our native freshwater fish species are unique to this country, much like the Kokako or even the All Blacks for that matter. Legislatively native freshwater fish have very little direct protection compared to other species. Furthermore, trout have exclusive protection under the Resource Management Act, so in a sense are already ahead.

I don't think a fish out or electro-fishing would have been effective in the reservoir. It may have reduced trout numbers but not achieved complete eradication. For example electro-fishing has been used to control pest fish (Koi, Rudd, Goldfish) in small lowland lakes in the Waikato using a specially designed boat. My understanding is that this drastically reduced fish numbers but did not cause complete eradication. 

A Rotenone operation in freshwater is much more complex than aerially broadcasting 1080. So I don't think DOC will ever have the resources or gain enough stakeholder support to under take such an operation on a large scale 

Cheers 

Justin 

 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Mullins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 10:45pm
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Rainbow - fantastic article, well researched and not at all speculative. 
 
Do you think feral cats have a positive net effect on native species? If so, how many of these rat killing, bunny bouncing eco-saviours do you reckon would be optimal? More? Fewer? Breeding programme required?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote SpringCreeky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2013 at 11:21pm
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Rainbow

I think DOCs eradication of trout at Zealandia and Gareth Morgans stance on cats are different.  

Your explanation suggests removing cats doesn't resolve the problem it simply creates a new one. By the analogy in your letter you would have to remove every single pest species to be effective. The use of Rotenone would do just that. I guess it is the fresh water version of intense pest eradication carried out on off shore islands, Maungatautri and of course Zealandia. In terms of recovery of native species these are generally seen as a success.  

Sadly we have made a mess of it all. but there are situations were we can make improvements and I don't think the operation at Zealandia should be seen as sinister or the actions of zealots.    


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote sharp hook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 8:43am
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For some time I promoted the idea that NZ needed to review the trout/coarse /native fish in rivers and lakes.My view was that some areas need to be native only/trout [natives take their chances]and  coarse fishing .This would give us all what I think is a balanced outcome.If we look at the arrival of outside organisems we see that the imports by the first settlers has and is still causing ecological damage [pacific rats]but they are a "treasure".There are imports arriving all the time [pellicans are the latest].Nz is a changing  place that we do want to protect but we have to accept change.My views did not fit the outlook of those in charge and I no longer get invited to give my point of view in places of "learning"
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Zambezi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 8:49am
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Originally posted by sharp hook sharp hook wrote:

There are imports arriving all the time [pellicans are the latest].


Wrong example, they're classed as native as they found their own way here.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Jet_ski_fisher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2013 at 10:24am
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they're classed as native as they found their own way here??? So if a shet load of overseas refugee's Found there way here on boats and settled as well are they natives then? as the way i looked at it, they are over stayers...
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