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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 4:18pm
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Lay money on it happening, and no doubt the permit issuer sells off the rest. Way to protect the fisheries,lol.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 5:30pm
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Originally posted by letsgetem letsgetem wrote:


The letter from MPI in response to a request under the OIA, is very revealing. There were 41 customary permits to take Toheroa in the 2 years to April 2017 - all in places where taking Toheroa is otherwise completely prohibited.
 
What a joke. Laws are set to manage and protect seafood stocks - for all, including Maori - and Parliament passed a law that lets one section of society to ignore it.
Customary permits allow maori to take sea food that is disallowed to others - including things that are otherwise completely prohibited (such as Toheroa). And, in numbers exceeding allowed limits, and less than the minimum size allowed (such as under size crayfish, scallops, snapper, etc). In fact anything at all, without redress, provided it has been written on the permit.
 
Basically, the customary permits allow some Maori to get around the law. I doubt that virtually all New Zealanders realize this.  
 
The Herald has been picking and publishing some in-depth issues. Surely this is one. But, how to convince the media to pick this up.
 
Also, possibly some pressure could be applied to MPs. I would have thought Winstone Peters would have stood up for this, but he now appears to have lost his B...ls. Someone in National perhaps might get behind it.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 5:37pm
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Originally posted by yellafin yellafin wrote:

Just to add a bit of fuel to the fire.

Has anyone heard of permits being issued for double the amount applied for. Example 50 crays required for a function and permit issued for 100 crays.

The idea is that the issuer receives the extra bounty as payment for issuing the permit.


I have heard from reliable sources that this happens regularly.


Read my post about 10 above yours. 
I was chided for posting 'opinion' on the permits. For the record, I have not posted ANY opinion. just the facts. And as to your Q, yes - I have seen it happen. So , not opinion, fact.
If you are the guy who has the power to approve permits, you have the means to a guaranteed supply of kaimoana.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 7:01pm
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Yep I deleted a post cause I'll be labeled racist again. Facts are facts. I'm not fussed if my account is deleted for.posting facts. It is what it is....and I find it racist for "some" to be allowed a permit cause you have to feed a few families at the detrement of others that are too un-native or intimidated to request one. Bollocks.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 8:46pm
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Fish Feeder. Go back and read my post. It was pretty much directed at you. There are plenty of ratbags from Maori, Polynesian, Asian, European and commercial backgrounds.Don't turn this into an anti Maori rant.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 6:53am
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Originally posted by smudge smudge wrote:

Fish Feeder. Go back and read my post. It was pretty much directed at you. There are plenty of ratbags from Maori, Polynesian, Asian, European and commercial backgrounds.Don't turn this into an anti Maori rant.
Good call Smudge, my two cents worth on the subject. As i live in a very small community we have one permit issuer who grants just as many permits to Pakeha as To Maori over the years for genuine important functions etc. Sure some might take alot more than required, but overall from wot iv'e seen and heard it works fine for everyone here. One Pekeha wedding i attended here over 100 people everyone had a crayfish! We are lucky here as there are very high numbers of Crays but in areas were they are getting scarce i think there should be a limit in permits so in future years theres still some for all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 7:02am
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Why is it necessary or legal for someone to take 100 crayfish for a wedding? Is that 'customary' or just a cheap way of feeding the guests at the expense of the wider community?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 7:07am
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I sit in two worlds. I am married to the Customary Permit system, and at the same time am a Legasea Foundation member. The two don't sit easily with me. An earlier post suggested dobbing the breaches in. Not likely on my part - Whanau. But you can discuss the issue with them. Which I have done. Not an easy discussion either. And I find it difficult at the functions where we are feeding on Permit food. It seems un natural to be eating small crays etc. Nothing (in my experience) is measured to any specification. It is either 'big enough' or 'too small'. I can't enjoy them. And the wastage at times is hard to take. Generally not wasted - all dispersed somewhere. But beyond what the permit intended. Although I have heard stories I won't recount here.
Without filling pages here about the discussions, and voicing opinions on them, the best summary I could give is that we operate in two parallel universes - each believing theirs is equally valid. I can see how we ended up with this system, and not an easy fix.
And I don't see a reconciliation of that any time soon.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 7:07am
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Geoff you won't have a high number of crays if that practice continues.


Smudge, I don't think the topic is aimed at being an anti maori rant. I agree that all areas of society have dodgy buggers. It's just that the Moari are in charge of the issue of permits and need to show some respect for the various fisheries rather than fleecing everything they touch..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 7:45am
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Originally posted by yellafin yellafin wrote:

Geoff you won't have a high number of crays if that practice continues.


Smudge, I don't think the topic is aimed at being an anti maori rant. I agree that all areas of society have dodgy buggers. It's just that the Moari are in charge of the issue of permits and need to show some respect for the various fisheries rather than fleecing everything they touch..
Answer yellafin-NO. We are controlled by the weather and the reefs systems are huge and close in to the cliffs. Most of the time you cannot dive and to dangerous to pot because of conditions. Thats why they are so plentiful. Nature protects them. For instance one tiny rock in a reef system where my mates dive may hold a hundred Crays, he will select his six then we go Snapper Fishing. Been there four times with him and only divable once as to dirty from brown water coming out of the rivers made zero visabity. So that also protects them.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 8:10am
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I have seen the permit thing abused up here by Europeans who know how to get one, over and over. We are talking hundreds of packhorse crays at a shot to name one abuse.

A guy just purchased a section down the road from me and showed up with his huge boat and trailer and massive coolers and went out every single day and I expect with at least 4 on board was able to kill as much fish as he was able as fast as he was able and all legal.
Hes got tons of money a flash as boat and sounder so how does that make him any different than these other guys?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 8:14am
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Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

Why is it necessary or legal for someone to take 100 crayfish for a wedding? Is that 'customary' or just a cheap way of feeding the guests at the expense of the wider community?

boom!Clap
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 8:32am
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If customary permits are getting abused, you have to ask what 'Einstein' couldn't have predicted that when they set up the dodgy trust based system in the first place. Whilst I am sure it is well managed by strong individuals in some places, the opportunity for theft to go unmonitored and unpunished will be far too much for many to resist.

Sometime in the future someone really brave might do a study and decide that the system is getting ripped off, then everyone involved will say how surprised and upset they are that our country lost 1000's of tonnes of illegally poached seafood. But that is all that will happen. Lots of PR spin and no useful actions.

Sounds a lot like our commercial fishing QMS really. Designed to fail, completely foreseeable, and no one in power has ever had the balls to fix it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 8:58am
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Yep watever smudge. Delete my account if you want. I'm not really fussed eh.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 9:41am
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We have anti polynesian on life jackets.. astata tend to back that up.
 We have anti asian on property.. stata may or maynot back that up debatable but likely
 we have abuse of a 'customary FISHERIES system that by nature of its structure and auditing is open to abuse..back handers. 
 Thats racist?

 Just a side we have FISHERIES customary rights... yet when it comes all other wildlife , as far as I know there is no customary rights... 
ie weka , kea, tui, kaka, kiwi, dolphins, whales, orca.
 And currently there is a move to include many of these into customary rights..

 Either we have customary rights for threatened species or not.
 We should not have customary rights for one section of animals and not another....from thast situation things progress once get a foot in the door to either opening customary right up to everything or closing down for all unsustainable species, sizes etc.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 9:49am
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 Some have said there are just as many non-maori ripping off our fishing regulations. I have no doubt that is true, but that does not mean it is ok for "customary permits" to be abused.
 
And, saying there is something wrong with a maori privilege, is not racist or an anti-maori rant!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 9:55am
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But what I've said is racist as smudge said,even though its fact.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 10:41am
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The Customary right has nothing to do with conservation or preservation of stocks - no matter what complexion and PR you want to add to it. It is about a basic RIGHT to take stocks from a particular locality. Which is why it prevails, when a fishery is otherwise closed. The origin is rooted in the 1840s when the wise guys then could not have contemplated the issues 180 yrs later.
Outside of Customary there are no rights - just a privilege or permission to take - commercial and amateur- which is reviewable - fishery can be reduced or closed. But not to Customary.
Unless the Iwi administering it decide to do so. That permission to take is controlled by individuals outside the system that is supposedly aimed at conserving the stocks. Experience would suggest - eg Toheroa take, that such action is unlikely in any great form. Therein lies a problem. We have one system supposedly guarding the sustainability of a resource for all - backed supposedly by good science etc. And another system for the same resource that is controlled by individuals for the benefit of their whanau basically, as of right.
How do you solve that? Rorts aside there is a fundamental problem. But yes, the system like all is open to abuse. But with this system it is even more susceptible to rorting - because so much of the rorting is untraceable. Rorting the MPI system is relatively easy to enforce/prosecute if they so choose to do. We routinely are dealing with MPI over our local paua fishery which gets hammered. They have got better, and take us seriously now and respond to a lot of our calls, and their (MPI) catch rate has improved over the last few yrs - as another bootload of undersize paua heads to town. And they do from time to time turn up on our beach and check the boats landing. You either have your quota or less of crays/paua/fish and they either measure up or don't. Black and white.
But how do you detect undersize kaimoana being passed to a permit holder to land ashore, or taking more than required for the permit to satisfy others further down the line etc. Not to mention the sustainability of being able to take 40-50mm crays because the legal ones are hard to find?
But to tackle that would mean interfering with someones Rights. Which undoubtedly would require compensation. But compensation is not what a Customary fisher would be interested in. They want their rights protected, in perpetuity. And that currently is the state of the law.
Alan
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 11:54am
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I get it to some extent when I see and hear how they operate. This stuff is important to them - it is part of their identity as to how they relate to each other etc. Which I suspect is why the rorting goes on as it does. I don't think they see it in the same terms as we might.
but if you look at management of the fishery as a global objective, I don't think the Customary fishing helps. But it is enshrined by something determined before we had to consider such things.
I see weird outcomes in other countries - that to some extent defines who they are. For example I spend a lot of time in Vanuatu. They have a bunch of 'weird' laws - for instance certain jobs can only be held by ni Vanuatu. I can see what they are trying to do, as discriminatory as it is - but it says something about them and the country.
I do suspect this is something as Kiwis we will just need to learn to live with. I don't see any other result really. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2019 at 12:07pm
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Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

Why is it necessary or legal for someone to take 100 crayfish for a wedding? Is that 'customary' or just a cheap way of feeding the guests at the expense of the wider community?

Sounds like most of Mokau attended the wedding,  to me it seems appropriate for a coastal community that rely on seafood to celebrate a wedding  with seafood........ would anyone complain if James Packer had married Mariah  Carey in Mokau and  decided to buy 100 crayfish to feed his  100 guests?

"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"
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