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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 5:33pm
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Originally posted by v8-coupe v8-coupe wrote:

Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:

" Just a thought, perhaps they could not find the permitted 300 Toheroa, so took all they could find ".

Not allowable.



"Not allowable", ?????
The permit says they are allowed to take up to 300.
If they can only find 200, 150, or 100 that is all they will take.
How is that not allowable?
Do I have something wrong?


Sorry, I thought you meant swapping out for a different species.
Same as your limit for snapper (7 snp1) if you only catch six, well you only take six.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 5:46pm
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Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:

When these customary permits are written.. given.. is there a record of them
 Also is there a record of what is actually taken.
 And is the take and documentation above, subject to MPI inspection?
And if so where are the records archived, by who? and open to historial inspection as per most other official documents etc?


Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Local office I think.
Don't know.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 5:52pm
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Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:

When these customary permits are written.. given.. is there a record of them
 Also is there a record of what is actually taken.
 And is the take and documentation above, subject to MPI inspection?
And if so where are the records archived, by who? and open to historial inspection as per most other official documents etc?
As far as I know - from what I have observed, there is no record of what is taken. I don't think the permit holder has to fill out anything. Just a record if MPI check. They just need to keep within the permit limitations to comply.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 5:56pm
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Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

Another rort which you probably have not yet considered , goes like this;
Whanua X does not have a permit - but most/all of his crays are undersize. Whanua Y does have a permit - so he transfers them to Y's boat and Y takes them ashore. As long as Y is not stopped by MPI, all the crays go back to X, and Y continues to fish on his permit.
Seen it with my own eyes.
Jeez, yous boys are slow.
Alan


No, we're not slow. Probably a bit unnecessary that comment.
Same theory can apply to all of us, drop the boat in, catch limit, return the catch home. Repeat all day.
I'm merely trying to answer some of the questions risen here. Not providing an opinion, trying to state facts as best I can.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 6:14pm
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http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/1998/0434/latest/DLM267987.html


Sustainability measures

Any Tangata Kaitiaki/Tiaki may provide input to and participate in the process of setting or varying sustainability measures, or developing management measures concerning the whole or any part of the area/rohe moana for which that Tangata Kaitiaki/Tiaki has been appointed.


Records of authorisations

Every Tangata Kaitiaki/Tiaki appointed under these regulations must keep accurate records of every authorisation granted, and the records must specify full particulars of that authorisation.


Records of fisheries resources taken

Every Tangata Kaitiaki/Tiaki appointed under these regulations must keep accurate records of the species and quantities of fisheries resources taken by those persons authorised under these regulations to take fish, aquatic life, or seaweed, as advised by those persons under regulation 38.


water water everywhere,how many fish does it hold?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 6:18pm
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Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:

Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

Another rort which you probably have not yet considered , goes like this;
Whanua X does not have a permit - but most/all of his crays are undersize. Whanua Y does have a permit - so he transfers them to Y's boat and Y takes them ashore. As long as Y is not stopped by MPI, all the crays go back to X, and Y continues to fish on his permit.
Seen it with my own eyes.
Jeez, yous boys are slow.
Alan


No, we're not slow. Probably a bit unnecessary that comment.
Same theory can apply to all of us, drop the boat in, catch limit, return the catch home. Repeat all day.
I'm merely trying to answer some of the questions risen here. Not providing an opinion, trying to state facts as best I can.
You probably could "kitno"take out mates for a morning fish and another bunch out straight away providing you werent fishing,cough cough,you have merely provide a vessel to fish from and as long as no cash payment took place,cough cough,there would be no problem??basic illegal chartering. 
water water everywhere,how many fish does it hold?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 6:18pm
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Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:

Originally posted by Alan L Alan L wrote:

Another rort which you probably have not yet considered , goes like this;
Whanua X does not have a permit - but most/all of his crays are undersize. Whanua Y does have a permit - so he transfers them to Y's boat and Y takes them ashore. As long as Y is not stopped by MPI, all the crays go back to X, and Y continues to fish on his permit.
Seen it with my own eyes.
Jeez, yous boys are slow.
Alan


No, we're not slow. Probably a bit unnecessary that comment.
Same theory can apply to all of us, drop the boat in, catch limit, return the catch home. Repeat all day.
I'm merely trying to answer some of the questions risen here. Not providing an opinion, trying to state facts as best I can.

Not quite the same thing as I see it - altho both illegal, obviously.
One relates to taking too many crays (drop the boat in and repeat).
The other relates to using/abusing the permit system to land otherwise illegal sized crays. 
"Eg, issuing permits for paua at 80mm would not be tolerated if legal size paua are available in the area."
I am not sure I can share your optimism here. There is no impetus in the system to conserve stocks. The prime issue at time of writing a permit is to provide (in abundance) for the upcoming hui/birthday etc. So, where 100 legal size crays may do, write the permit for 200, so the undersize can be utilised too 9in case 100 legal can't be gathered in time). And don't forget the cut for the guy writing the permit - so the 200 goes up to 220. This is the reality. Seen it in action.
Regards
Alan
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 6:25pm
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But it keeps Maori happy,so that throws white privilege out the window,lol.
So much for looking after the fishery for the future eh. Just go out and smash it bro.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 7:02pm
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Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:


Not just Maori. Anybody can apply for a customary permit.


I didn’t know that. How does one go about it? Serious question.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 7:12pm
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Originally posted by MightyBoosh MightyBoosh wrote:

Originally posted by kitno kitno wrote:


Not just Maori. Anybody can apply for a customary permit.


I didn’t know that. How does one go about it? Serious question.


Contact your local MPI office or Iwi/Marae.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 7:45pm
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Good luck with that if you live in kawhia lol ,theres no chance I'd rock up to the local marae and ask to take their seafood sorry.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 8:31pm
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The treaty needs to scraped,it had a place in time but we have culturally inter mixed through marriage  etc we are all one,by pushing the treaty we are creating division.

As I have stated several times you cannot beat them so join them,register as a Maori and then we are all one,
Maori is indigenous person of the land and as I was born here that therefore makes me a Maori,not European/pakeha etc but that is another can of worms.

The system is open for abuse but what system is perfect?
How many times did we read about poaching by reccs or under reporting by comms??no real difference except one is legal.
water water everywhere,how many fish does it hold?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2019 at 9:02pm
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Nvm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 9:06am
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This is a good discussion. I for one have no experience with customary take. Alan L says he's seen rorts going on and I don't doubt that one little bit. Just like all forms of fishing. There will be those who play it straight and those who break the rules.  don't lump all those who participate in customary take in the same basket.

Just a reminder to keep this discussion on track, this good discussion is about customary take, I don't want to see an anti Maori diatribe.

As for Maori wiping out the moa, in European times we have seen many other species wiped out or brought to the edge of extinction. While I am no greenie there are good people in that group too who have worked long and hard to re-establish some of those almost gone species.

One thing that I am not clear on is the question of toheroa. Is it legal or not for them to be taken on a cutomary permit? I think it isn't - but I'm a bit slow today Big smile . I was talking to someone about toheroa the other day, wondering if there will ever be an open season again.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 9:12am
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Thanks Kitno...
 As to the other examples digressing.. Im sure people may TRY and find loop holes to jump thru no matter what the subject.
And so often when comes to investigation they eventually get hammered.

 Back to the subject thu.
 We have rec ppl getting checked.. now on a regular basis.. or more often.. and prosecutions, fines..I would suspect more than what is reported in the media..
 And we have comms also get checked , monitored and hit here and there.
But I do not recall anything , in stats from permit data or even the catch authorised  by permit being checked, let alone bring fined/ prosecuted....

Its not just the permit parameters that concern me but the accountability to the NZ  environment sustainability, and the future generations, and the law of the land.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 9:49am
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Two points -
 
1. I havent seen any reporting in media, of irregularities in taking under customary permits - compared to common reporting of irregularities uncovered in recreational and commercial fishing . I assume that either MPI haven't been active in this area, or have "turned a blind eye" to any problems found. Questions should be asked of MPI, as to what checks carried out.
 
2. Anyone observing possible irregularities should tell MPI. Feeder - could you give your observations and pictures to MPI, and ask for an investigation. Even if the take was actually allowed under the law for customary permits, scrutiny would achieve some measure of control over whats going on. If we don't make a complaint, nothing will change.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 10:04am
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Originally posted by letsgetem letsgetem wrote:


Two points -
 
1. I havent seen any reporting in media, of irregularities in taking under customary permits - compared to common reporting of irregularities uncovered in recreational and commercial fishing . I assume that either MPI haven't been active in this area, or have "turned a blind eye" to any problems found. Questions should be asked of MPI, as to what checks carried out.
 
2. Anyone observing possible irregularities should tell MPI. Feeder - could you give your observations and pictures to MPI, and ask for an investigation. Even if the take was actually allowed under the law for customary permits, scrutiny would achieve some measure of control over whats going on. If we don't make a complaint, nothing will change.  


The only time I have seen customary permits raised in the media is when some silly individuals got caught savaging the resource and tried claiming Customary take by either getting a back dated permit or using someone else's. Both examples have been in the news and on the TV program.
What would be the point of abusing the catch limits of a permit, if as suggested, they are granted for more than necessary and have a smaller size limit attached.
Does the issuer of the permit have to investigate the gathering and decide whether it is legitimate and the quantity is necessary, or do they just take peoples word on what is required and for why?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 10:14am
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old news article  10/11/2001


Far North Maori are flouting customary fishing rules and fighting over who has authority over different stretches of coastline, leaving Ministry of Fisheries staff almost powerless over who can issue permits under Treaty of Waitangi provisions of fishing law.
Endangered toheroa and high-value species such as paua and crayfish are being caught in excess of legal amateur limits, sometimes undersized and with fishing methods for which other New Zealanders would be prosecuted.
A Maori honorary fishery officer on Ninety Mile Beach (Te One Roa) was told to "f *** off, you work for the Pakeha" when he confronted three men gathering toheroa.


What I can gather is Yes they can take toheroa but must be on permit

fyi.org.nz/request/5498/response/18411/attach/html/3/OIA17%200127%20MPI%20OIA%20

Graham Carters request to Mpi  april 2017
water water everywhere,how many fish does it hold?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 2:26pm
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The letter from MPI in response to a request under the OIA, is very revealing. There were 41 customary permits to take Toheroa in the 2 years to April 2017 - all in places where taking Toheroa is otherwise completely prohibited.
 
What a joke. Laws are set to manage and protect seafood stocks - for all, including Maori - and Parliament passed a law that lets one section of society to ignore it.
Customary permits allow maori to take sea food that is disallowed to others - including things that are otherwise completely prohibited (such as Toheroa). And, in numbers exceeding allowed limits, and less than the minimum size allowed (such as under size crayfish, scallops, snapper, etc). In fact anything at all, without redress, provided it has been written on the permit.
 
Basically, the customary permits allow some Maori to get around the law. I doubt that virtually all New Zealanders realize this.  
 
The Herald has been picking and publishing some in-depth issues. Surely this is one. But, how to convince the media to pick this up.
 
Also, possibly some pressure could be applied to MPs. I would have thought Winstone Peters would have stood up for this, but he now appears to have lost his B...ls. Someone in National perhaps might get behind it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2019 at 4:12pm
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Just to add a bit of fuel to the fire.

Has anyone heard of permits being issued for double the amount applied for. Example 50 crays required for a function and permit issued for 100 crays.

The idea is that the issuer receives the extra bounty as payment for issuing the permit.


I have heard from reliable sources that this happens regularly.


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