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Climate Change - That Disobedient Ice Cap

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2019 at 7:46pm
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Everytime you start the car all the plants in the garden whisper a little thankyou.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote snapperdave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2019 at 9:43pm
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It's good to see there's others out there who aren't convinced about the climate science being "settled". Pretty well all the guys I come in contact with socially and through work think it's BS. I'm no scientist, but have watched a lot of stuff on history / discovery channels and you tube about the cycles of heating & cooling of the planet (and another planet nearby where the polar ice caps have also recently started shrinking) and think there's a lot more to it than the simplistic garbage being forced down our throats by Jacindarella & co. Solar cycles of the sun have a lot to do with it. CO2 levels rise & fall cyclically as well, possibly due to the ocean temperature cycles, volcanic activity and a little bit of our influence. 
Taxing the s#%t out of us is definitely not going to fix it, or "stop climate change" as the govt keep telling us. 
What I can't believe is the lack of articles / opinions you see in the mainstream media exploring the alternative opinions which are out there. Anybody who dares to have a contrary opinion is immediately dismissed as a "climate change denier". 
I recently completed a survey on Stuff which asked peoples opinions about their climate change coverage, telling them I thought their coverage lacked balance. In the survey results https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/113711124/we-asked-about-climate-change-coverage-and-got-15000-responses they completely dismissed anyone who asked for balanced reporting as members of the Flat Earth Society or "denialists". 

We'd better be careful or soon they'll be burning us as witches..........
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote whippersnappyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 7:51am
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Originally posted by Marko 44 Marko 44 wrote:

Thanks whipper
In regards to the peer review there is this


 From the Japanese scientists who happen to agree with the Finnish scientists.
Broken down into plain English means
"<span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">"The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has discussed the impact of cloud cover on climate in their evaluations, but this phenomenon has never been considered in climate predictions due to the insufficient physical understanding of it," comments Professor Hyodo. "This study provides an opportunity to rethink the impact of clouds on climate. When galactic cosmic rays increase, so do low clouds, and when cosmic rays decrease clouds do as well, so climate warming may be caused by an opposite-umbrella effect. The umbrella effect caused by galactic cosmic rays is important when thinking about current global warming as well as the warm period of the medieval era."</span>
<span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
</span>
<span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">So what I make of this, is climate change is effected by quite a few different variables.</span>
[COLOR=#333333" face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]<span style="font-size: 14px;]Sure I will agree pumping oil out of the ground and releasing all that CO2 into the atmosphere can't be that good for the planet. But for the scientific authourity to not include things like a weakening magnetic field and the inverse increase in cosmic rays. The cosmic rays then have an effect on storms and warming. To not include this information because they don't realize the implications is like my tomatoes are deformed because they didn't get enough water, when in fact they might not have got enough potassium, or maybe its calcium or they have had to much nitrogen. </span>[/COLOR]


Marko your explanation of what it means obviously comes from some anti climate change website as none of it is in the paper you reference. The paper makes no mention of the IPCC for example. It is about the last geomagnetic reversal which was about 800,000 years ago. This has nothing to do with the current debate such as it is on climate change
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Marko 44 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 8:48am
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"
Marko your explanation of what it means obviously comes from some anti climate change website as none of it is in the paper you reference. The paper makes no mention of the IPCC for example. It is about the last geomagnetic reversal which was about 800,000 years ago. This has nothing to do with the current debate such as it is on climate change"

No it does not come from anti climate change website
It is compiled from a few different sites, talking about scientific reports.
 Again
Last time I checked science daily wasn't an anti climate change website
"""The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has discussed the impact of cloud cover on climate in their evaluations, but this phenomenon has never been considered in climate predictions due to the insufficient physical understanding of it," comments Professor Hyodo. "This study provides an opportunity to rethink the impact of clouds on climate. When galactic cosmic rays increase, so do low clouds, and when cosmic rays decrease clouds do as well, so climate warming may be caused by an opposite-umbrella effect. The umbrella effect caused by galactic cosmic rays is important when thinking about current global warming as well as the warm period of the medieval era."
Professor Hyodo wrote the peer reviewed paper about the magnetic field weakening and its effect on weather based on real history on the earth.
 It takes time for the magnetic field to strengthen then weaken so that is what that is about.
 Unlike the IPCC which has been making predictions that have been wrong so many times. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 9:16am
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Yeah 400 ppm is nothing in as far as historical levels go. 900 ppm in the Permian and and an average of 1800 ppm during the Mesozoic Era. Mammals thrived in levels if 500 ppm in the Paleogene. More C02 does not mean the end of life.

But it does mean a huge extinction rate.
 And what survives is not very happy

This will not wipe out humans, just make them very uncomfortable for a while, then with a famines and flooding etc , wipe then start to wipe them out in prone areas.
 Oh thats right we already have that in prone areas...at an increasing rate.
As that rate increases, the cost to rebuild / support for the rest become too much in time and economy
The cold snap back in the 1300s is a good illustration.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Fraser Hocks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 10:18am
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Ah the internet, a place intended so we can share the knowledge of the world, yet we use it as a place to argue with on another LOL

Does climate change?  Well yes.   Is it caused by humans....I very much doubt it.    Should we all be doing more to care about the environment and cause less harm to the environment.... YES!     All the warming hype is designed to attempt to stop stupid people that cant think for themselves, doing less harm to our environment.....hopefullyUnhappy

Why is it that the ones always flipping out about armageddon due to the latest climate report they have read on the internet, are always the ones with multiple kids running around.   Does no one realize that producing more and more people is THE biggest issue we all face.  Stop population growth for love of god!  

And if you don't believe in conspiracies then explain to me why all governments encourage population growth, while they keep bringing in more and more polices around saving the environment, fully in the knowledge that population growth is THE biggest impact on the environment. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Fraser Hocks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 10:20am
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Originally posted by snapperdave snapperdave wrote:

We'd better be careful or soon they'll be burning us as witches..........

Your not wrong there Dave.  Remember we are dealing with the mob mentality here!  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote waynorth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 11:31am
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A timely article from Nature

As expected from an article in one of the world's leading scientific journals it makes for pretty heavy reading, but this one from public access science site IFLScience summarises it quite nicely.

The referenced Guardian article is a few years old now, but makes for interesting reading too.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 3:11pm
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The Guardian is a daily laugh regarding climate change, they pretty much diss any carbon producing industry. But you can't touch travel / tourism, oh no because it is what they love to do. Apparently air travel only produces 4 percent of C02 emissions but as I have pointed out numerous times that is only the start of tourism C02 emissions. Start adding up after you touch down, especially here in NZ. How many of those numerous motorhomes are electric?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 3:25pm
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Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:


Yeah 400 ppm is nothing in as far as historical levels go. 900 ppm in
the Permian and and an average of 1800 ppm during the Mesozoic Era.
Mammals thrived in levels if 500 ppm in the Paleogene. More C02 does not
mean the end of life.

But it does mean a huge extinction rate.
 And what survives is not very happy

This will not wipe out humans, just make them very uncomfortable for a while, then with a famines and flooding etc , wipe then start to wipe them out in prone areas.
 Oh thats right we already have that in prone areas...at an increasing rate.
As that rate increases, the cost to rebuild / support for the rest become too much in time and economy
The cold snap back in the 1300s is a good illustration.


Well we don't know Steps, how many scenarios you could put through a computer and get differing results.
I do know for a fact one way or another Earths climate will change and all human activities is just another page on the planets history. All I know is I don't have the sense of impending doom and anxiety a lot of people seem to have over it. I find it strange.

The best solution is obvious and it is a big effort from a national agency to move us quicker into new greener techs. The obvious country to enable this is still the USA.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rozboon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 3:39pm
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Is it a real personal hardship on any of you to make some small effort towards generally being a little "greener"?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 3:45pm
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Rozboon, how green do you want us to be?

All the reports say ditch carbon tech now which is impossible.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rozboon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 5:02pm
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Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

Rozboon, how green do you want us to be?

All the reports say ditch carbon tech now which is impossible.


Just a tiny bit more than you were yesterday.

The attitudes of "it won't do anything" or "screw it, there are others doing much worse" are so entirely defeatist that it makes my head spin.

This is one of those things where it's like... if the "we are causing climate change" people are right, then good, we did something, and if they're wrong, then oh well, at least we made things better. Whereas if you're in the "it's all a hoax" camp, and you're wrong, then you probably contributed more to whatever downfall it causes than the other camp did.

One side seems to have a good outcome either way, the other doesn't.


EDIT: I get it, people don't like being told that what they're doing is, in some way, wrong. Just look at commercial fishermen and whitebaiters when they are told they are contributing to the extinction of their resource, they get super defensive and all the usual tropes (such as "yeah but xyz is bad too") come out.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 5:12pm
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But in this brave new "fairer" world green for one person might mean taking only one less flight to the USA this year as an example.
But still flying say another four times, I have a few mates who do this regularly.

And if what they are saying is true about dropping C02 as quick as possible my above example is frankly not good enough.

But we banned plastic bags so there we can feel better.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rozboon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 5:16pm
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Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

But in this brave new "fairer" world green for one person might mean taking only one less flight to the USA this year as an example.
But still flying say another four times, I have a few mates who do this regularly.

And if what they are saying is true about dropping C02 as quick as possible my above example is frankly not good enough.

But we banned plastic bags so there we can feel better.

I hear you on the "perhaps this is all futile" front, but does that mean we just go "**** it" and carry on exactly the same?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (2) Likes(2)   Quote Kevin.S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 5:20pm
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Originally posted by Rozboon Rozboon wrote:

I get it, people don't like being told that what they're doing is, in some way, wrong.

In particular we don't like being told WE need to change what we're doing by a bunch of hypocritical do-gooders who think they are so high and mighty.

For example Google just held a climate change conference, where the attendees jetted in on over 140 private jets from around the world to talk about how we need to lower emissions.  Or governments bringing in emissions taxes that put industries out of business.  Then we keep using the stuff they used to make locally, but now we ship it half way round the world to us from a country that makes it in a less environmentally friendly way than we used to.  But that's great because we can say "look, we lowered our carbon emissions", never mind that in doing so we increased net world emissions.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 5:21pm
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For people who are just living a pretty ordinary life without all the bells and whistles, well yeah.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kevin.S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 5:21pm
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Just to be clear, that wasn't aimed at anyone here.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote v8-coupe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 5:39pm
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Originally posted by Fraser Hocks Fraser Hocks wrote:

Ah the internet, a place intended so we can share the knowledge of the world, yet we use it as a place to argue with on another LOL

Does climate change?  Well yes.   Is it caused by humans....I very much doubt it.    Should we all be doing more to care about the environment and cause less harm to the environment.... YES!     All the warming hype is designed to attempt to stop stupid people that cant think for themselves, doing less harm to our environment.....hopefullyUnhappy

Why is it that the ones always flipping out about armageddon due to the latest climate report they have read on the internet, are always the ones with multiple kids running around.   Does no one realize that producing more and more people is THE biggest issue we all face.  Stop population growth for love of god!  

And if you don't believe in conspiracies then explain to me why all governments encourage population growth, while they keep bringing in more and more polices around saving the environment, fully in the knowledge that population growth is THE biggest impact on the environment. 



As mentioned by myself in an earlier post, a rapid human depopulation is the only answer to save many species and ecosystems.
It will do nothing for climate change as that is a natural phenomena which has been happening since the beginning of time.
It is simply because of the population and mass instant media that we hear about things quickly and events have huge death tolls and destruction.
We now live in areas the ancients did not for that very reason.
Climatic events made them dangerous.
As for Governments halting births, it will never happen as capitalism, especially the version we have now will not allow it.
It needs a growing population to grow.
China tried it and realised it was economic suicide so scrapped the idea,
Never fear, one way or another there will be a huge cull.
It will either be via nature or mans penchant for stupidity.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rozboon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 5:41pm
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Originally posted by Kevin.S Kevin.S wrote:

Originally posted by Rozboon Rozboon wrote:

I get it, people don't like being told that what they're doing is, in some way, wrong.

In particular we don't like being told WE need to change what we're doing by a bunch of hypocritical do-gooders who think they are so high and mighty.

For example Google just held a climate change conference, where the attendees jetted in on over 140 private jets from around the world to talk about how we need to lower emissions. 

100% on that, nothing leaves a bad taste quite like a good dose of hypocrisy. "Do as I say, not as I do" is a crap way to motivate people.

My version of things is that one person/group doing things badly doesn't necessarily give everyone else a pass to do it to. The painful example of this currently, as you highlighted, is China, where the economy is booming on the back of environmental ruination and, apparently, the exploitation of a lot of humans. But we supposedly know better, and we seem to be in a position where we can afford, individually, to do better, so perhaps we should give it at least a little bit of a go.
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