89 Kiwi Killed In 1080 Drop

Page  <123>
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Southern_Jez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 7:55pm
Southern_Jez View Drop Down
Platinum
Platinum
Avatar

Joined: 25 May 2011
Location: Foveaux Striat
Status: Offline
Points: 2025
Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

Yes lots of trampers and yes some might like to see interesting birdlife, but they are mainly there for the tramp not the birds. I used to do a lot of tramping with different groups as well as a lot of hunting. Everyone would love to see a rare bird, but that wasn't why they were there. I would love to see out native bird life improve as well, but is 1080 the only way to achieve this?

Fair points, is 1080 the only way to achieve it ... probably not, but it the most cost effective and suitable for new zealands unique fauna (no native mammals to be concerned with).

My main issue is with the misinformation that the anti-1080 groups keep recirculating - the initial title of this thread being a prime example - when the anti-1080 groups start using properly formed arguments that does not rely on 30 year old data, then perhaps people like myself who dont want to see 1080 used will start to listen. Either that or come up with a viable alternative taking into consideration cost, applicability, and efficacy, because without those 3 properties no compound will ever replace 1080.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote part-timer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 10:40pm
part-timer View Drop Down
Platinum
Platinum


Joined: 14 Oct 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1924
Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

Yes lots of trampers and yes some might like to see interesting birdlife, but they are mainly there for the tramp not the birds. I used to do a lot of tramping with different groups as well as a lot of hunting. Everyone would love to see a rare bird, but that wasn't why they were there. I would love to see out native bird life improve as well, but is 1080 the only way to achieve this?

The short answer is "yes", its the only way at this time..

If new techniques are found, then all well and good...  Ive never heard of a better way as yet though..

Please tell me a better way..

If all the 1080 opponents had their way, the forrests would be stripped bare...  and there would be no birds to worry about in some areas..

get real people.... possums are eating our vegitation...

I used to go shooting threm at nights when I was a boy... im all for erradicating them..

J


Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote The Tamure Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 11:50am
The Tamure Kid View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium


Joined: 25 Aug 2015
Location: Auckland
Status: Offline
Points: 4802
Hmmm, curious argument from that trapper PJC. 

I once saw a trapper near Lake Okataina come back to shore from across the lake with a couple of bags of fur plucked from the bodies of the dozens and dozens of possums he'd got on his trap lines overnight. 

I'm sure he would have basically left the bodies where they lay, given the hassle of trying to remove them, so surely those mass deaths would equally put off the possums' mates from hanging around? Thereby stuffing up the trapper's livelihood unless he moved for miles the next time? I very much doubt that was the case...

There are anecdotes to suit every side of this debate, and those with extreme views will cherry pick "evidence" to suit their argument as well.  
It's impossible to convince conspiracy theorists that the moon landings weren't a hoax, that 911 wasn't a self-inflicted attack etc etc. 
So this debate will never end either.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kezza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 12:08pm
Kezza View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Location: Westside Hard
Status: Offline
Points: 14740
My main concern over the use of 1080 and similar is the way the stuff kills it's intended and collaterals….fast forward to 2:00mins



What I find wrong with 1080 apart from the inhumane way this shiiiiit works

• The huge gravy-train/big business associated with and driving the production and dispersal of 1080 that is dressed up as CONservation - no other country uses this crap anymore like we do.

• The lack of RnD in to alternatives such as reassigning dole payments (debt) in to actual "getting paid for a days work" (credit) - a lot of areas being targeted with aerial drops are accessible by foot or perhaps design trap technology that plucks and stores the possum carcasses in solar operated chillers once humanly dispatch of then automatically resets waiting for the next revenue gathering pest to come along. fibres and meat gets collected once every few weeks then taken to the next part of the production/jobs?...I think most of us could design something like this in our lunch breaks!!

• The collateral damages to native fauna (89 or 1 it's doesn't matter)

• The single bloody mindedness of a department out of control with the help of MPI is what pisssses me off!

To me it doesn't really mater what side of the fence you sit on in this debate - if you think it is ok to kill animals like this then you are a complete grunt!!…anyhow…



#BAN1080
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Titahi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 2:24pm
Titahi View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Location: Mount sinai
Status: Offline
Points: 3614
A kiwi being ripped to shreds by a dog aint pretty either Kezza.
A possum chewing off its leg to escape a gin trap also isnt a pretty sight. 

Unless you can come up with a cost effective strategy that equals the efficacy of 1080 nothing is going to change.

I look forward to seeing  your solar powered fully automated humane pest killer, that  you design this lunchtime  :)
"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote OneWayTraffic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 2:30pm
OneWayTraffic View Drop Down
Platinum
Platinum
Avatar

Joined: 19 Jan 2013
Location: Amberley
Status: Offline
Points: 2822
Kezza, a conservative estimate of the birdlife killed by introduced predators would be in the millions. Populations of all native species plummeted after the introduction of stoats, ferrets and weasels. The net benefit to native fauna of keeping pest numbers down is immense. 

I certainly do not think it is ok to let our native species go extinct.  No one on this thread has proposed a better alternative. It isn't enough to say, 'no I don't like that.' Anyone can do that. Give DOC a better idea, and get New Zealanders behind it. 
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kezza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 2:59pm
Kezza View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Location: Westside Hard
Status: Offline
Points: 14740
Hi OWT….is it OK to kill animals in the fashion shown in the video? yes/no (this is important to weed out the loonies in these sort of discussions early)

I did make a suggestion in my post - not sure it's better or where I'd personally get the resource to canvas DoC and New Zealanders as per your suggestion - perhaps some of our collective tax should be used fr RnD, then marketing, then implementation

Yes have sent similar  ideas to MPI and DoC…..here it is again……what do you think? to simplified I expect but yeah….

The lack of RnD in to alternatives such as reassigning dole payments (debt) in to actual "getting paid for a days work" (credit) - a lot of areas being targeted with aerial drops are accessible by foot or perhaps design trap technology that plucks and stores the possum carcasses in solar operated chillers once humanly dispatch of then automatically resets waiting for the next revenue gathering pest to come along. fibres and meat gets collected once every few weeks then taken to the next part of the production/jobs?...I think most of us could design something like this in our lunch breaks!!
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kezza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 3:04pm
Kezza View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Location: Westside Hard
Status: Offline
Points: 14740
Originally posted by Titahi Titahi wrote:

A kiwi being ripped to shreds by a dog aint pretty either Kezza.
A possum chewing off its leg to escape a gin trap also isnt a pretty sight. 

Unless you can come up with a cost effective strategy that equals the efficacy of 1080 nothing is going to change.

I look forward to seeing  your solar powered fully automated humane pest killer, that  you design this lunchtime  :)

- So 1080 is a dog control method to protect kiwi?…good-good now we're getting somewhere!….slight tangent there….tropical fever Jas?

- Yeah gin traps are fairly archaic and not sure how we got on to those?

- Ok maybe not design but certainly scribble a few diagrams that a % of the costs of 1080 could go to developing….heck….was just an idea…there are bound to be better and and it's not really my job to plan strategies for the future of pest control….maybe that is why I/we employ Department of CONservation?….or does the business of 1080 a bit of a strangle hold on advancements in effective/targeted pest control?
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote OneWayTraffic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 3:26pm
OneWayTraffic View Drop Down
Platinum
Platinum
Avatar

Joined: 19 Jan 2013
Location: Amberley
Status: Offline
Points: 2822
Kezza I'm not claiming that 1080 is a humane killer; it is not. That in itself is not enough to get the majority of this country behind a ban. I consider inhumane killing of possums, rats, stoats, and the odd native bird regrettable. I also consider letting our unique fauna disappear unacceptable. If 1080 is the best poison to use then use it they will.

A better alternative needs to put forward if you would like to see change. It would need to be biodegradable, effective, cheap and lethal. 

Otherwise it just won't happen. That is the reality. 


Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote The Tamure Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 4:26pm
The Tamure Kid View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium


Joined: 25 Aug 2015
Location: Auckland
Status: Offline
Points: 4802
I think that most NZers are on the same page regarding the need to preserve our indigenous flora and fauna, and the need for a solution that is as humane as possible. And the fact that any pet dog which dies in pain is a tragedy, ditto the kea and other natives which get affected. We'd have to be heartless to not feel that way. 

I also think there's a lot of work going in to finding or considering an alternative, from sterilisation (of the possums, not the protesters Smile) through to other poisons, and trapping/hunting systems.

Despite what some people think, the permitting of poisons isn't done thoughtlessly. I sat through an announcement in Wellington a decade ago when the permit for Doc and others to keep using 1080 was announced. It followed a long process with all viewpoints and credible evidence considered, from what I could see in the report.

Here it is:
http://www.epa.govt.nz/publications/1080-decision-document-with-amendments.pdf

Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 4:29pm
pjc View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Location: papakura
Status: Offline
Points: 12468
Painting trees with cyanide is not answer either.effective but has implications as well
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Titahi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 10:14pm
Titahi View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Location: Mount sinai
Status: Offline
Points: 3614
Originally posted by Kezza Kezza wrote:

Originally posted by Titahi Titahi wrote:

A kiwi being ripped to shreds by a dog aint pretty either Kezza.
A possum chewing off its leg to escape a gin trap also isnt a pretty sight. 

Unless you can come up with a cost effective strategy that equals the efficacy of 1080 nothing is going to change.
I look forward to seeing  your solar powered fully automated humane pest killer, that  you design this lunchtime  :)

- So 1080 is a dog control method to protect kiwi?…good-good now we're getting somewhere!….slight tangent there….tropical fever Jas?

- Yeah gin traps are fairly archaic and not sure how we got on to those?

- Ok maybe not design but certainly scribble a few diagrams that a % of the costs of 1080 could go to developing….heck….was just an idea…there are bound to be better and and it's not really my job to plan strategies for the future of pest control….maybe that is why I/we employ Department of CONservation?….or does the business of 1080 a bit of a strangle hold on advancements in effective/targeted pest control?

Thats a long long bow to draw from my post Keiren :) and certainly not my position, which is in the shade to escape the 35+ degree heat :)

Design..... Scribble... Mere details


More info here about research currently being undertaken for biological control of possums...



So not quite the vacuum of alternatives, but like scribbles they can often take time :)







"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 10:34pm
Tagit View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Location: Westhaven, Auck
Status: Offline
Points: 15052
One thing that we need to realise is that under the current process we will be pouring 1080 onto our land in 1000's of tonnes quantities FOREVER. Has anyone done any studies at all of the cumulative effects of pouring tonnes of poison onto the same spots over and over for decade after decade? Do we have to worry about insects and maybe predators mutating?  Thalidomide, asbestos, and DDT were once saviours of some of the worlds problems too. Has enough real research ever been done about a poison that only NZ (out of the whole world) uses in volume?
I had an interesting experience about 4 - 5 years ago. I was driving my family home from a holiday and we drove past a track access into Pureora forest. I hunted up that access for many years around 30 years ago until DOC started carpet bombing it with 1080 and wrecked the hunting (although that was vehemently denied at the time). Got sick of tripping over rotting corpses. Stunning bit of bush with gorgeous big natives all over the place. I stopped and took the kids for a ~90 minute walk up the track to show them some of the sights I remember. First thing we see is the notice saying that there had been a 1080 drop. Second thing was a couple of baits lying on the edge of the track barely off the road running past. Anyway, we go for the walk and all I can say is that after 30 years of what seems like almost continuous 1080 drops I didn't see or hear any more birdlife than I remembered, and the bush didn't appear to be any thicker or nicer than I remember either. Maybe there were a few extra birds that I didn't detect, or maybe I didn't notice that the bush had some extra leaves, but what I can absolutely confirm is that this heavily bombed area over 30+ years looked and sounded nothing like the DOC 1080 propaganda videos.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Titahi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 12:45am
Titahi View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Location: Mount sinai
Status: Offline
Points: 3614
Given how  water soluble  ( it is a salt) your concerns appear unfounded.


The above is produced by Forrest and Bird, who arent a lacky of the government and are independantly privately funded, Federated farmers are also independant of Government.
"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kezza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 10:05am
Kezza View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Location: Westside Hard
Status: Offline
Points: 14740
OK…..tanget time….

I live 15kms in a straight line from Auckland's Sky Tower….we have possums, assorted rodents etc on our 9 acres and whilst my trusty .177 and fixed feline takes care of some of them it's not my job to ensure we are pest free and yes there are native birds and native trees about the property, my last house in densely populated suburbia neighboring the Waitakere Ranges which had possums, rats and a stoat (only saw one) and also native birds and I am sure even Remuera would have such nocturnal pests roaming about mostly unchecked.

blanket arial dispersal of 1080 across urban areas as well?….John Key's pool-boy be able to fish out wayward pellets before pink gins poolside at 4pm?…..all good! These urban populations of pests will be causing "spill over" in to our forests and replenishing pest numbers even if 1080 was effective…..what should we do about town dwelling pests? treat children and handbag pets as collaterals?
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 10:55am
cirrus View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium


Joined: 07 May 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 9760
Good point Kezza. I live in central Auckland. Lots of cats ,dogs,rats ,a few possums,the odd stoat. Yet bird populations,including native are healthy. Recently counted 16 Tuis at the same time feeding on nectar on one tree. Other species include ,grey warbler,white eye,kingfisher,fantail,a few native pigeon  etc. Yet i go into the forest and it is silent.

All predators are very mobile. Introduced rats arrived here at seaports and have spread everywhere. So while we bombard the forest with 1080 we have cities and towns that are safe haven for predators just waiting to repopulate the forest .

Dont know the answer to this.

It is agreed that 1080 does hammer the forest pests ,but also agreed that a small percentage survive and can rebuild. We will never know the number of non target birds and animals it kills. It is not in DOCs interests that we know .
And what is being done regard culling other major pests,namely introduced European wasps. They strip honey dew thus depriving native birds of valuable food. They also strip mine insects in all stages of the life cycle. The endemic Helms Butterfly now appears to be extinct in the Waitakere ranges and very rare in other forest areas. Wasp predation..

So maybe the authorities are happy with the present situation.
From a cynical perspective the existence of DOC in its present form depends on having rare and endangered species. It all were restored and healthy what would happen to DOC.
 Cruel 1080 is probably the best we have at the present time,but it is not good enough for complete & lasting control .
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Titahi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 11:41am
Titahi View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Location: Mount sinai
Status: Offline
Points: 3614
Gummmmmon Keiren your an intelligent bloke..... posing this though.... "blanket arial dispersal of 1080 across urban areas as well"? 
 Trapping and alternative methods will work in urban areas, due to the relative ease of access, and lower pest density. So surely their is no need to aerial drop in urban areas..... try driving  50m around the corner to the next trap in Fiordland, Hunua or Waitakare....

And therein lies one of the issues, 1080 is such an emotive topic sane rational people  become polar in their views.  
Im out, I dont expect to sway anyones opinion. 

Oh look Kezza, Cirrus agrees with you....I rest my case :)  :)  :)
"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Kezza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 11:48am
Kezza View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Location: Westside Hard
Status: Offline
Points: 14740
just playing devil's advocate Jas….of course I wouldn't expect blanket arial drops in urban areas….and yes your last point is of a concern!Stern Smile
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote The Tamure Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 12:13pm
The Tamure Kid View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium


Joined: 25 Aug 2015
Location: Auckland
Status: Offline
Points: 4802
Originally posted by Titahi Titahi wrote:


And therein lies one of the issues, 1080 is such an emotive topic sane rational people  become polar in their views.  
Im out, I dont expect to sway anyones opinion. 

Bang on, Titahi. Most people are entrenched in their views and will swear black is white till the TB-infected cows come home. 
As in any emotive debate, they are entitled to their views. But it's chear that when opposed to the status quo it's easy to label government departments as all part of some big conspiracy, and scientists as in cahoots with business etc. See Trump and the rigged election!!

If any hard working Doc rangers and other on-the-ground staff are reading this, I congratulate you for doing your best with the tools currently available to look after our treasures. Ditto all the scientists beavering away in labs trying to find alternative solutions.

A place like Tiritiri-Matangi island shows what our country would be like if the generations before us hadn't stuffed it up with crazy wildlife and plant importations. You want natural bird song, check that place out. To think we nearly had foxes as well!

New Zealand's situation is unique in that our plants and birds evolved without the natural defences which are present in Australia, where possums/wallabies live in natural balance, or in Europe where the same can be said of German wasps/stoats/pigs/deer/weasels rabbits etc.
At the moment, I reckon our agencies are ambulances at the bottom of a very high cliff.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 4:09pm
pjc View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Location: papakura
Status: Offline
Points: 12468
Keeza might be on the right track.must a market for the meat.edible but nit my first choice. Possum sleep on the ground and feed un trees from my understanding so perhaps stun them while sleeping on easy terrain?
Back to Top
Page  <123>
Forum Jump
Forum Permissions View Drop Down


This page was generated in 0.344 seconds.

Fishing Reports Visit Reports

Freshwater Fishing Reports
Rotorua Fishing Report - 23/02/24

Experienced anglers can catch 50+ fish a day It would be fair to say the Rotorua... Read More >

23 Feb 2024
Saltwater Fishing Reports
Raglan Fishing Report - 22/02/24

Snapper and gamefish on the menu The usual areas both north and south around the... Read More >

22 Feb 2024
Saltwater Fishing Reports
Bay of Islands Fishing Report - 22/02/24

Softbaiting in the wash providing the goods The weather has been great but the fishing... Read More >

22 Feb 2024
Saltwater Fishing Reports
Hauraki Gulf Fishing Report - 22/02/24

Clouds of anchovies providing a feast Whether you love or loathe eating anchovies yourself, they... Read More >

22 Feb 2024
Fishing bite times Fishing bite times

Major Bites

Minor Bites

Major Bites

Minor Bites