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$2.2M Survey - Rec Fishers

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    Posted: 22 Jan 2018 at 7:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (3) Likes(3)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2018 at 7:47pm
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Getting a better handle on the Rec catch can only be a good thing if the science is robust enough and the answers aren't shaped to fit 'politically required outcomes'. The real issue is what is done with the information. 
When rec fishing is shown to be hard like in the last survey they don't cut the commercial catch to help improve the stocks do they!!! So no upside for us there. On the other hand the extra warm temps could make this a bumper year for recs if it drives the fish closer to shore so this time the survey may show added abundance but have no reflection on the state of the actual stocks. Big question then is how much pressure the comms put on about increasing their take or reducing the rec take because the survey coincides with an extreme warm water event. Hopefully the science would allow for the weather effects but I imagine they don't have enough data to do this so we risk a massive over-assumption about the average annual rec take and that leads into scary territory given the state of our politics.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (3) Likes(3)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2018 at 8:41pm
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Just had a proper read through that article. So the proposal is that comms get financial compensation if the government needed to reduce their take to allow for recreational fishing. Do these guys even begin to think about what they are saying??

So our fisheries are massively depleted due to historic mass commercial over exploitation. They bring in the QMS to stop the over exploitation and as a consequence GIFT $billions in previously publicly owned quota to the people who were doing the exploiting. The more exploiting you were doing the more you got gifted. Not only that, they 'over gifted' some quota so they immediately bought it back from the comms they gave it too at a cost of tens of $millions form the public purse. Next they say that some of the fisheries are below minimum biomass targets so they cut the recreational catch. Then when the biomass is still recovering too slow they cut the rec catch again and again and again. Now they want to pay the comms more $millions in 'compensation' if those filthy scum recs want to carry on catching a tiny portion of what they were allowed when the QMS was introduced to stop the comms destroying the fishery.
If you wrote this as a story no one would publish it as it so stupidly unbelievable.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2018 at 9:36pm
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How can a survey that only encompasses the top half of the Nth Island provide crucial data on fish numbers for the rest of the country. Also appears to only target boats what of those that don't fish from boats
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2018 at 9:41pm
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If it is like previous surveys I think they do phone interviews etc as well and the boat survey stuff is used to validate the data from wider phone survey stuff or something like that.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2018 at 9:47pm
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The myth that NZ has a well run fishery policy continues. 

Christ you think the 95% of the total fish landed on shore by comms would be enough but no it seems they want to drain the 5% recs have for every cent. 

And as rightly said by Tagit if it were not for the historical plundering of the 70's and 80's by comms we probably would not have this situation. 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2018 at 9:52pm
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"If you think of it as a bank account, you've got commercial fishers and they're taking a ****load of money out of the account and recreational fishers, they're taking cents out of the account as well.

"If you don't understand who is taking what out of the account you could be become bankrupt.

LOL I fixed the article

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2018 at 10:06pm
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Was not the last major survey in 2011-2012. As it transpired that was regarded as a bumper year for snapper in the H.G. So much so that the director of Sanfords was on the T.V news saying how healthy the snapper fishery was .
However the years following the recreational catch of snapper appears to have dropped markedly in the H.G.
Now we have another survey,i have already had my catch counted and measured by NIWA. And once again by some co-incidence it seems we have another bumper year,or that is what i am seeing in my catch

This does not however mean that there are suddenly lots more snapper around. Snapper dont grow that quickly. It most likely means that a larger portion of the remaining bio mass just happen to be in the gulf and inner gulf this year, as it was in 2011-2012. Not more fish in the total biomass but just more in range of recreational this season..
Just hope this is taken into account when considering the results.
Otherwise ,as in 2011-2012 we risk having two false positives and not a genuine impression of snapper numbers.
Also have heard there is a Kahawai survey coming up this year as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote John H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2018 at 6:38am
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This year there are two large scale surveys of recreational harvest.
The NIWA survey of boat based catch in NE NZ using independent counts of boats fishing and interviews of about 20% of boats to measure catch.  
 At the same time there is the NRB national interview survey of about 7000 fishers who report their catch for a year.  This is self reported catch so hard to verify.  
 Comparing the boat based catch in the same area as the NIWA survey is a way of verifying estimates for the largest recreational fisheries in NZ.
This is a repeat of what was done in 2011-12.

 Cirrus has a point that we could be surveying the 2 best years out of the last 6. NIWA also run the web camera surveys that count boat traffic on some of the key ramps and interview fishers on 60 days to monitor trends in fishing effort and catch rates every year.  This clearly shows the dip in snapper catch after 2012.  
 The snapper fishery in HG is important but there are plenty of other areas and species that there will be new harvest estimates for.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (3) Likes(3)   Quote Garry 23041 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2018 at 7:38am
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When asked I refuse to answer.

I will not respond to any entity that is a puppet to commercial fishing.
We have been burned by this before.
Very sad as I am a big time advocate of extreme changes to conserve the fish we have left and grow stocks on both sides of the issue (coms and us).

It has come down to a fight over who gets to kill the remaining scraps of a fishery, which is obscene..

Very few actually value fish in my opinion.

Most only value fish as a commodity they want to be the ones to kill......

Couple of weeks ago my neighbor killed 6 kingfish entering the harbour.
He took a new fisher with him to "teach" him how it's done.
To my knowledge he does this regularly as he's retired.....no respect, it seems hopeless to me.

These surveys are a joke and maybe delaying tactic.
We are partying while Rome is burning.

I just spent three days and two nights away on the boat with a mate.

Our allowable catch for the trip is staggering!
6 crays per day per person.
7 snaps each per day.
Then kingis bluenose etc are all allowable!
One kingfish I put back was upper 20s to 30kg, thats a ton of meat if you keep it on it's own...


We need to re organise coms then face another round of cuts ourselves.
NEVER us first this time though so I'm super leary about this "survey".


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Espresso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2018 at 8:07am
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NZ's answer, repeatedly, to the obvious - pay millions for another survey, funded by you and me.
Procrastinate.
Repeat the beat.

Meanwhile...
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2018 at 8:15am
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So the proposal is that comms get financial compensation if the government needed to reduce their take to allow for recreational fishing. Do these guys even begin to think about what they are saying??

Does a coal or gold mine  or an oil well get compensated when the ore runs out?
 Do rate payers get compensated when the water reserves run low or dry up?

 Do comms get compensation when a oyster or scallop has 'disappeared?

 These re the same guys who want unique dispensation from the Official info act.. dispensation

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote John H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2018 at 9:27am
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Fortunately all the surveys are voluntary.
No need to interview those that are are unwilling or that exaggerate.

Steps   Do commercial fishers pay when there quota is increased. like the 50,000 t increase in hoki since 2010 ??  yeah right
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2018 at 11:11am
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Would I be wrong if the survey finds that the recreational is exceeding or getting close to tac rate. This will give MPI leverage to introduce a licence of some sort?
Seeing how comms pay for quota and the Minister is/was suppose to set aside annual tonnage for recreational comms will push harder for A)closer inshore fishing  or  B) licence for recreation fishing.
QMS is not WORKING
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote John H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2018 at 11:21am
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Even National said licencing was off the table.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kevin.S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2018 at 11:25am
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Originally posted by John H John H wrote:

]Even National said licencing was off the table.

But that was not the impression they gave when questioning this government on whether they would be implementing a licence based on the NZI report.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (5) Likes(5)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2018 at 12:16pm
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Originally posted by pjc pjc wrote:

Seeing how comms pay for quota .....

Warning - Rant follows.

Exactly how do they pay for quota??? The only way they pay for most quota is by one commercial fisherman paying another commercial fisherman or fishing company for ACE. Ain't no serious money ending up in the public purse from that. I wonder how many people here have not understood that the only public purse return on our commercial fisheries is from PAYE on the people employed and whatever minimal company tax the fishing companies can't avoid paying after sending dividends to their offshore owners.

That is the crux of nearly everything that is wrong with our QMS. The government gave effective ownership (property rights) of virtually all our fisheries to a small group of people who happened to be commercial fishing at the time the quota was distributed. Screwed 1000's of others who they decided they didn't need to talk to and had a huge impact on some of most vulnerable coastal economies. How dumb was that. Give away $billions of perpetual public income and a large degree of control over our public fisheries for no sane reason. If anyone has a sane reason I would love to hear it.
 
The only other publicly owned resources I can think of that are/were provided free to commercial interests are our fresh water, air, and public spaces. In return the commercial users give us back mass pollution that we then have to live with and eventually pay to clean up. We do however get to enjoy the public waterways, spaces, and air for free so it isn't all bad (at least when the pollution isn't killing you).

Look at how everyone is now trying to line up a way to take ownership of fresh water so they can screw the public for more money from a resource that belongs to the public today. Same with what we always considered public spaces. In some case the government charges for commercial use to help fund the management which makes some decent sense whilst in others cases the Maori 'claimants' have started charging or preventing commercial operations even when the 'public space' ownership might still be technically public. Haven't seen any serious claims against the ownership of the air yet but sooner or later someone will dream up a reason why they should own it and charge everyone for using it. That is how our country seems to work.

Bottom line is that all public owned assets should be returning something to the public that is commensurate with it's value whether that is in money or enjoyment rights. Fish is the only major public asset to date where we have given away all the money, most of the management rights, and a hell of a lot of the enjoyment privileges for a tiny little return to the public that could be massively higher if it had been managed sensibly. Imagine if the public still owned the Quota and leased the ACE to the fishing companies as should have happened. Another $B or so in the public purse every year? How many surgeries or school books or training programs etc could that fund instead of making a tiny handful of people super wealthy.
Lets see if we learned enough from that debacle before the same thing happens with our Fresh Water.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kevin.S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2018 at 1:30pm
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Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

Originally posted by pjc pjc wrote:

Seeing how comms pay for quota .....
Haven't seen any serious claims against the ownership of the air yet but sooner or later someone will dream up a reason why they should own it and charge everyone for using it. That is how our country seems to work.

Actually there is a recognised claim, wai 909, for the "atmosphere of New Zealand" registered as a historical claim with the Waitangi Tribunal.  It is a completely serious claim, mainly focusing on the use of the atmosphere to transmit signals through and claiming compensation for it's use.  So don't even joke about it.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Phantom Menace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2018 at 2:56pm
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Public space charges:

Actually Auckland Council has begun to charge commercial entities for the use of public spaces.  At the Auckland Freediving Club we got a call from Council a few years ago wanting us to register and pay for our use of Lake Pupuke for training.  I explained to them that we were a not for profit club (not a business) and kept our membership fees to a minimum.  We didn't actually charge our members for lake training (but did charge for pool training - included in our annual membership fee).  They were fine with that and left us alone.

As an aside ... I wonder if they are collecting fees of things like the Cross Fit trainers that use public parks and charge punters fees?  (I suspect not).
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Garry 23041 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2018 at 4:04pm
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Good rant Tagit...

In developing countries they stick a nice pump in the village well and charge them for their own water.

Water is a huge deal world wide and for sure people want to get a hold of ours and make some big bucks of it.

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