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Recreational Fishing Licences - have your say

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (2) Likes(2)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 11:42am
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Originally posted by herby herby wrote:

What would you prefer - no management, or poor management? 

It would be nice to have a government with the balls to just reduce various TACCs and be done with it.


What I would prefer is a very public examination of our QMS system and what/how/who allowed this to happen, and who needs sacking/prosecuting. Yes it is a bit old now, but the fact that the government won't change it suggests to me that there is plenty of stuff still going on that needs to be exposed.

On the 2nd statement I think you and I have reached a 'rare for us' consensus Beer
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Baru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 12:24pm
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Fishing Licence
Advantages
•     Provided the administrative body is independent of direct Government control will provide a legitimate body that represents the interests of recreational fisherman. Currently, there is no body that can legitimately say they represent the recreational fishing sector, Legasea and NZ Sport Fishing Council etc. are doing a good job, but probably represent say no more than 20 % of recreational fisherman.

Disadvantages
•     There is a real danger of creating a new “unproductive” industry. In recent time the biggest growth industries in NZ have been in compliance/administration, management systems, QA. RMA etc. etc. overseen by local, regional and central government plus groups of self-interest companies, all mostly unproductive, consuming a huge amount of time and resources.
•     I live in the Far North and a significant percentage of the population live a subsistent lifestyle and view collecting seafood not as recreational fishing but as obtaining food for the table, no different to a townie going to the supermarket.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote v8-coupe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 12:54pm
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Originally posted by cirrus cirrus wrote:

Quote." Rec fishing licences being a key part way fishing should be managed."

Since when has our inshore fishery been managed. Exploited would be more to the point. So why would a licence bring about good management.
When the quoted 1 million undersize fish crushed in trawl nets in Sn1 ,or fisheries such as sounds and Tasman bay scollops closed due to neglect and overfishing are actually addressed  properly,then maybe people can talk management.

To date management includes us having cuts in increased size and in limit numbers and we want to thank them by paying for it.

So what would a licence achieve. Cant see anything on the table yet.

Like it or not our fisheries are a political issue.When a fishery is run by the government for economic benefit of fishing companies.then it cant be anything but .
For me it is a decided NO. I expect value for money,and not illusion or maybes.

" Geeks like to think they can ignore politics,you can leave politics alone,but politics wont leave you alone."

Richard Stallman. quote.





That is why I agree with Herby. Shock horror. Remove all size limits for fin fish within the comm sector. In effect land all and process it as required for different customer bases. I have raised this o[tion a few times at various meetings, emails to various ministers and the media. Seems a reasonable idea to cut down on wastage and a way to efficiently use catch mortality yet it is always shot down by the comm sector and Governemnt. Too hard apparently. They also argue if the comm sector is expected to do it, so should the rec sector. A few line caught fish are a hell of a lot different to the hundreds crushed to death and wasted in the cod end of a net in one trawl.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote v8-coupe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 1:05pm
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Originally posted by Capt Asparagus Capt Asparagus wrote:

I think we definitely need a licensing system. A thirty dollar a year licence with funds going to an independent rec fishing body, NOT govt coffers.
Licence to apply to all fishers including Maori , who however have a free licence if at point of sale can produce evidence they are on the Maori electoral role... Maybe even so, if free, there will be a proviso on the licence to allow them to donate their $30 to the cause anyhow. (Although that would be seriously difficult to administer.) Applying online would make donating the equivalent to the fee easy, and by ticking that box would include them in the draw for prizes. Basically, make it easier for them just to buy the licence really.
Kids under 13 free, kids under 18 half price. Full adults, say $30-$40, or roughly the price of a day's bait and berley.
Funds collected to be used for enforcement and education, , and a contribution to the HFO system, coastguard, but mainly to fund rec fishing research and POLITICAL CLOUT.
Include in the licence a chance to go in the draw for a new boat and trailer packag or something, as per the annual coastguard fundraiser, only paid licences are eligible...ie, not free kids or any Maori who claimed free licences.
Licences could easily be sold online, easy to do, as trout licences and hunting licences are done now. Once you buy your licence you have an electronic receipt on your phone or whatever, print out if you want, and in due course, a proper plastic licence will be mailed out to you for your wallet.

The benefits.... MONEY, and therefore lobbying clout, for rec fishing interests.
A database of nz rec fishers, to get some decent information on the numbers of rec fishers out there and contact details for them, to help in rallying support for rec fishing interests.
It would hugely help research into rec fishing itself. Simply ticking a few boxes in the licence form, ie, how many times you fish a year, where mainly, main target species, usual catch (ie, how many you normally expect to get), it'd be a massive help.
If half a mill fishers got paid for licences , that is 15mill to fund rec fishing causes....if admin etc ate up 90% of that money, and left only a tithe of the licence money (10%) to actually go to rec fishing organisations, that'd still be the biggest support to rec fishing bodies by orders of magnitude than is currently funded.
Should it be even more efficient and return say a third of the fees to rec fishing, then those funds could be used for enforcement, coastguard, maybe even some ramp building/fish handling facilities a is done in W.A.

What it could not do is buy back or retire quota, sorry guys, that is not how the system works, as I am sure you are aware. Quota works on tacc, total allowable commercial catch. If recs were to buy and nit take say half the quota, the tacc would be reallocated to those holding the remaining quota, so they would get to simply catch MORE. However, if rec fishing actually had the funding, and therefore the political clout (yes, in politics, as everywhere, money talks, bull-spit walks), then perhaps changes could be effected in the halls of power to change things.

The main point of the licence is not to control fishermen, it is to fund fishing interests, to give us the political clout. The other stuff, like Maori licensing, kids, family tickets, prizes etc etc, are all secondary.
I buy my trout licence every year for $130 or whatever it is, I buy a W.A. Fishing licence for I think $30 every year, it is not big deal. I surely would be happy to fork out $30-$40 for a saltwater licence, to give nz rec fishing interests the teeth to fight for us properly.


Edit, just read the above....re $5 day licences. Nope, none, for exactly the reason Tagit gave, it dilutes the income stream too much. Keep the licence fee small enough, $35 say, make it payable online, so it is in your smartphone or whatever, that'd be easy as.
Kids licensing, although technically kids would need a licence to fish, it is free, so no one is gunna bother about checking kids fishing off wharves etc for their licences, it just ain't worth the bother.

So what's one more?


"Licence to apply to all fishers including Maori , who however have a free licence if at point of sale can produce evidence they are on the Maori electoral role".
Why? Are we not all New Zealanders using the same resource? I am a fifth generation New Zealander and have no access to any other passport. How many so called New Zealanders of Maori descent have access to different passports? Why should they get preferential treatment?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Mr Moritz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 1:09pm
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A $100 annual licence would be a major problem for those on minimum wages.
Many of whom go out fishing to help put food on the table as they do in the pacific
islands. Be the usual story as per dog licences, most will pay but there will be a lot who
don't and there will be weak enforcement.   
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 1:32pm
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There is no doubt that licences might work to some extent in some countries, but does their government take care of enforcement? Does their government actively create policies to the detriment of recreational fishing? Is their government heavily in bed with the commercial interests? Remember that we will have to pay to supply or fight all those issues.
My only experience with buying a fishing licence (outside our own trout licences) was up in Alaska where they have a tourist licence. Locals can fish for free as part of their food gathering, but visitors pay a licence fee and operate under heavier restrictions (lower limits etc). It was all pretty sensible so no problem with paying for it. Big difference though is the ranger service isn't relying on licence funding, and there is a much stronger political focus on making things right for the people rather than the businesses. But that is where they got to after mass commercial destruction of their fisheries and the almost collapse of them. They have created a huge tourist fishery though because even the depleted fishery is better than in most other places. 

Main point is that a tourist licence won't need as much enforcing. The charters they mostly use can be incentivised to sell the licences if required, and with a developing fishing tourism industry we could probably generate some reasonable income without having some of the big overheads and political issues to deal with. The other thing is that most tourists will expect to have to buy a fishing licence. It won't be a whole lot of shock to have to do so as it is a pretty normal thing in most countries. We have 2 or 3 tourists out today on a charter and probably regularly have 100 or more over a 12 month period. Used to be a lot more but we changed one of our products and this has reduced those numbers whilst growing our local market. Some boats next to us specifically target the Chinese tourism market at the moment and there would be 100's of tourists going out on their boats. Multiply that by all the charter boats, plus add in a whole developing fishing tour business model and there might be 1 or 2M dollars to be collected nationally with a decent portion of that available for use beyond just admin costs etc. That won't fix all the problems, but it avoids some issues and would certainly help with buying a stronger political presence. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 1:47pm
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Licence could quickly become another tax with nothing to show for it. A bit like car rego.
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Fishing licence YES Licence for maori YES having said that.Even go further and boat registsration and owner/skippers ticket.
People who think they fish to feed the family are dreaming,
Could turn Kelly Tarltons in to a all year round spawning ground,enough space for different species and could/maybe able to truck fertilized species back to their native parts of nz.re stock blue cod in the south ,snapper in the north etc
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (3) Likes(3)   Quote Men In Black Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 2:41pm
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Licensing may happen but not for all. Too many gray areas that will never be black or white in our lifetime. The Treaty comes to mind, just how do you think you are going to inforce a licence to go fishing for Maori and ignore that signed agreement of freedom to gather and harvest.
Wake up....
Licensing would be a waste of money , it will never be properly inforced as it will be under resourced, it will never be fair for all, it's just another encroachment of our freedom to go fishing and hopefully it will never happen.
Commercial fishing operations are licensed are you all happy and tickity boo with how that's all panning out, and that's supposed to be closely monitored and controlled.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 3:07pm
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Originally posted by Men In Black Men In Black wrote:

Licensing may happen but not for all. Too many gray areas that will never be black or white in our lifetime. The Treaty comes to mind, just how do you think you are going to inforce a licence to go fishing for Maori and ignore that signed agreement of freedom to gather and harvest.
Wake up....
Licensing would be a waste of money , it will never be properly inforced as it will be under resourced, it will never be fair for all, it's just another encroachment of our freedom to go fishing and hopefully it will never happen.
Commercial fishing operations are licensed are you all happy and tickity boo with how that's all panning out, and that's supposed to be closely monitored and controlled.


Great points Mr P. and Happy birthday :)


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MightyBoosh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 3:12pm
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Originally posted by pjc pjc wrote:

People who think they fish to feed the family are dreaming

That was my thought too, can't see the financial argument. Perhaps if you kayak fish in your local area or have a small tinnie and fish close to where you launch, then maybe, otherwise no.

I do accept that fishing is a way of life for some, it probably applies to many on this forum. 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Capt Asparagus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 3:23pm
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All that is absolutely true, it COULD go unenforced, it COULD be unfair, it could be all those negatives....but it is also the only way rec fishing representation will ever be sufficiently funded. Voluntary contributions by a very small minority to the likes of legasea etc will never ever be sufficient.
The licensing system would indeed take quite a while to become accepted and become widespread, and yes, it will take a fair amount of the stick as well as the carrot to get it to be implemented properly, but that is aside from the point....money will be going to back the rec Fishermans voice.
Yes, it is bureaucracy, yes, it is going to upset people, but we need to fund our representatives, we need to give them the financial clout to give them the political clout.
If Maori do not want to participate, then stuff em. Let them freeload. Feel free to point that out should it ever come up too. Make getting the license an entry into some great prize packages, only available to paid licence holders.
Whatever else, the licence is purely to raise funding....and a lot of it....to give us a voice in the halls of power, one to at least start to match the influence of commercial fishing. The man with the biggest wallet has the loudest voice.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Men In Black Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 3:52pm
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A licensing fee unless outrageously high and out of reach of most will never fund, police, and administer what you are hoping for. If you think it will you are seriuosly out of touch with just where any licensing money will actually be gobbled up in reality.
And I would be very cautious on the racial comments about Maori as you are broad brushing them as all being free loaders when majority are not... Maori under the Treaty have the right to gather and harvest and you don't have the power to change that no matter what your views are.
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Originally posted by Men In Black Men In Black wrote:

A licensing fee unless outrageously high and out of reach of most will never fund, police, and administer what you are hoping for. If you think it will you are seriuosly out of touch with just where any licensing money will actually be gobbled up in reality.
And I would be very cautious on the racial comments about Maori as you are broad brushing them as all being free loaders when majority are not... Maori under the Treaty have the right to gather and harvest and you don't have the power to change that no matter what your views are.

Its the Iwi Maori ( self appointed  mouth pieces with Honneck ) whom you have to watch out for as they are in for their pockets and Commerical fishing... Legasea are sitting down at the same table with them and Scott Macindoe thinks Honneck is a great Guy ..." quote "

Poor Mr everyday Maori are being ripped off by them ..
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Men In Black Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 4:30pm
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Originally posted by mowerman mowerman wrote:

Originally posted by Men In Black Men In Black wrote:

A licensing fee unless outrageously high and out of reach of most will never fund, police, and administer what you are hoping for. If you think it will you are seriuosly out of touch with just where any licensing money will actually be gobbled up in reality.
And I would be very cautious on the racial comments about Maori as you are broad brushing them as all being free loaders when majority are not... Maori under the Treaty have the right to gather and harvest and you don't have the power to change that no matter what your views are.


Its the Iwi Maori ( self appointed  mouth pieces with Honneck ) whom you have to watch out for as they are in for their pockets and Commerical fishing... Legasea are sitting down at the same table with them and Scott Macindoe thinks Honneck is a great Guy ..." quote "

Poor Mr everyday Maori are being ripped off by them ..



The simple fact that the pro-licence guys can't get is that New Zealand does not and and never will have the population base where a licensing fee will give them the clout they want. Sorry do the math... 1.5million fishermen maybe a few more or less, work out from that what you would need to pay for a licence to achieve the result you are looking for.
Even at $100 it's not going to be anywhere enough and that's if everyone is licensed. Ok there's a possible $150m, sounds a lot until you start paying management, admin, policing, just where are all the other things going to be paid from, vehicles, travel etc.
Gonna need a shyt load of volunteers just like MPI and those guys are struggling.

Sorry if the pro licence guys just can't grasp the fact that licensing doesn't necessarily fix a problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 4:53pm
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If that is the case MIB how does anyone get caught out now poaching and taking undersized fish without any of us funding a system? Its not just 0800 Poacher but there are already checkpoints in place its just that we will go a few steps further. 

$150 million a year is a lot of money. My old company only turned over 2.2 million and employed 18 people. You could employ a heap of people with $150 million LOL I would not expect it raise that amount anyway half that would be unreal and lets say we did get 75 million that is worth nearly four times the amount of snapper export value! 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Capt Asparagus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 5:15pm
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W.A. has a population considerably smaller than NZs, and a smaller angling  percentage as well, yet their licensing revenues pay for a lot of stuff. Because it does to the govt though, they do not get the input into decision making on the fisheries that we would want.
 However, perhaps if license money were to go to the govt, it could well be used to pay a big chunk of on the water policing, not a bad thing to my mind, with a substantial amount of these funds being forwarded to rec fishing representation.... say that tithe I mentioned before... although I would doubt the honesty of the govt in keeping their costs down and thereby not absorbing the whole costs to fund bureaucratic expansion.
But the benefits to rec fishers outweighs all that, in raising money, even if just a million or two...for rec fishing representation, that is five if not ten times more than is being received now, and to get a database of fishermen in NZ to use for mailouts etc to garner political support, research into fishing habits etc, all good stuff. I certainly do not see any need for a license to be over $40, even if admin and bullspit like that took 90% of that, we would be winners. forty bucks time half a mill holders, that is 20mill there.... take off even just 2 mill for rec fish representation, that 18 mill would most certainly pay for a BIG chunk of policing!
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Originally posted by Muppet Muppet wrote:

If that is the case MIB how does anyone get caught out now poaching and taking undersized fish without any of us funding a system? Its not just 0800 Poacher but there are already checkpoints in place its just that we will go a few steps further. 

$150 million a year is a lot of money. My old company only turned over 2.2 million and employed 18 people. You could employ a heap of people with $150 million LOL I would not expect it raise that amount anyway half that would be unreal and lets say we did get 75 million that is worth nearly four times the amount of snapper export value! 


Don't know where you are quite coming from, a privately owned smallish company is totally different to an organisation needing lots of dollars to keep it feed and moving. You would soon see a licence fee jump to cover costs.
I worked for a just such and organisation for many years and trust me money gets eaten away very fast no matter how well managed, even millions of dollars. Just ask any Court administrator what a trial costs to prosecute someone on even a petty crime.

A licence simply isn't fair on all, only those that can afford it, plus it will never cover everything.
Its not just fishermen that could have a licence fee imposed on them, firearm owners face the same thing and I can't see the Govt funding the Police for the extra costs needed to empower the admin of it. I know my Arms Officer sees the horse as having already bolted and a licence fee is like trying to stop a leaking dam with your finger.

I'm Anti on it enough said.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Muppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2016 at 5:43pm
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If folks can afford Rods, Reels, Bait, Nets, Kontiki's, etc, etc. Did I mention boats? No then surely $100 a year is a drop in a bucket and affordability the poorest of excuses.  
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