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Launches....the good the bad and the ugly.

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Forum Name: The Boat Shed
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URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31731
Printed Date: 29 Mar 2024 at 10:10am


Topic: Launches....the good the bad and the ugly.
Posted By: righthook
Subject: Launches....the good the bad and the ugly.
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2008 at 9:23pm
hey guys after some info,  seriously considering selling my trailer boat and getting a small launch 32ft ish budget really about 100k max, tempted to get a small runaround use the launch for game fishing and a floating holiday home weekend pad throughout the year and keep it local on a swing mooring for mates and family etc, I dont want anything flash but useable and comfy.. I really like the look of the bayliner flybridge type boats http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=152049283 - http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=152049283   you can them up sub 100k, they look nice from what ive seen on the net etc, seem a lot of boat for the money......but i know nothing about this type of boating so they may be rubbish...going to have a look at one this weekend  So to all you guys out there what should I know look for and avoid,  is shaft better than stern legs are these to be avoided at all costs? heard horror stories about spending 3 k a year on servicing the leg etc,  duoprops etc what are they and why?  Will it cost a small fortune to own a launch.....or is it just lack of use that causes a lot of the problems?  What should I be looking for,  is diesel better or cheaper than petrol engines....really?  Why are a lot of these boats twin motor?  will they actually cost a lot to own if you do most of the work yourself?
Launch owners experienced boaties please give us your opinion.......also when I go to look at boats what questions should I be asking, what should I be looking at and for?
cheers in advanceThumbs%20Up



Replies:
Posted By: Wizard
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 9:00am
Speek to Blue Asparagus, he has had 2 in the time Iv'e known him and he's over hauled both.  Big boat fishing on a budget would be his forte I would imagine.  Good bugger to boot.  Dan


Posted By: righthook
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 10:07am
cheers Dan.......well  Asparagus got any advice mate?


Posted By: Saltiga
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 12:21pm
Looks alright for what your wanting it for, just need some riggers and you will be away mate.


Posted By: Bushpig
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 12:33pm
Bayliners are cheap for a reason and its not a good one

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I would rather laugh with the Sinners, than cry with the Saints


Posted By: [email protected]
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 12:43pm
Immmmm big Petrol toooooo :)

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Posted By: Dagwood
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 4:14pm
Brother in law is a boat builder and when I went looking he strongly advised against stern drives. He's also not a fan of Bayliners to put it mildly.

I would think that a petrol boat of this size will suffer from fuel costs and poor resale value.

Personally for the sort of dough you're talking about, I'd probably be looking for a tidy Vindex or similar with a solid diesel on a shaft. Might not be the flashest or the fastest but it would be a solid well proven boat.


Posted By: Jemry
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 4:21pm
I was told the other day that quite a high percentage of coastguards callouts in the gulf are to bayliners. Worth thinking about.


Posted By: doncod
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 4:30pm
the amount of bayliners that come in out of japan too where you dont know what the history is. if you look on the auction sites you can see where they have spray painted the engines and not to cover rust by the over spray on everything aroundthe engine. they are very cheap but the decor is something else


Posted By: righthook
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 4:59pm
cheers guys, whats so bad about the bayliners in particular??,  I've seen another with a diesel too a mercruser/cummins. Like I said I know nothing on this subject,  the boat i linked above looks a good shape, solid glass etc,  is it the old mercury yamaha outboard argument or are they just ****e and for what reasons? you guys got any ideas what would be a good boat and motor combination,  would like something that will do more than 10knots tho Wink
 
 


Posted By: tobez
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 6:51pm
quite a functional layout to the bayliner. Trouble is and i say this without any knowledge of that particular,  just bayliners, and is that they do have issues with the 'moving parts', fridges, waste pumps etc etc..
 
i did a bit of mucking about on the 2885...found it rolly when manovuering..trun a corner and the boat rolls more than i expected...gues the flip side is it may cut thru the water nicer..Geek
 
the motor is carbi..you will need to well planned maintenece programme, the big block is certainly a good block, im told, i hate mercs of all shapes and sizes  - i have only seen one 7.4l pulled apart and it was a import and it had 2 different size pistons - a througher mechanical inspection is essential. its the bits and bobs that have issues. Check your riser gaskets, they are due to let go..its done 350hrs over 12 years..thats 29hrs a year..thats a whole bunch of sitting in a salt water environment doing diddly squat.
 
another thing is that the 2885 had all its wiring at the back of the motor, including the battery charger and viatal components. In my opnion having any wiring in the 'splash zone' is not desirable. If its like that in this one then make sure you have an extremely good look.
 
at the end of the day, its like all things, comprimise.
 
will have a hunt for you
 
 
 
 


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Waikato North Harbourmaster...Got a Nav Safety question for the Waikato region?...call me 021705642 or download the app Marine Mate!


Posted By: tobez
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 7:15pm
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Boats-marine/Motorboats/auction-170935659.htm - http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Boats-marine/Motorboats/auction-170935659.htm
 
i would seriously look at this boat
  http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Boats-marine/Motorboats/auction-168193177.htm - http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Boats-marine/Motorboats/auction-168193177.htm
 
well thats all i could find


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Waikato North Harbourmaster...Got a Nav Safety question for the Waikato region?...call me 021705642 or download the app Marine Mate!


Posted By: righthook
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 7:15pm
cheers for that Tobez,  sounds like it might be better to buy a cheaper boat and spend the money on a rebuild as the history can be a bit iffy?  What do you think of stern legs trouble or not?
 
cheers


Posted By: righthook
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 7:22pm
hi Tobez......put my reply on before your reply was on this end Confused, thanks for that, they both look like good boats especially the Taupo one hours wise and with the 25hp for game fishingThumbs%20Up


Posted By: tobez
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 7:26pm
legs certainlly have their place, less resistance and more speed - higher maintenece is the downside, but they mean in a boat that size your living space is not taken up by big motor and it will be more pleasent for passengers not lisening to a hory great motor..again its comprimise, if you know that its going to cost you 4k a year or more then you can budget for it and it wont be a surprise...
if you wanna go thru a repower then dont stuff about get a yamaha 315!!Clap you know what your buying then

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Waikato North Harbourmaster...Got a Nav Safety question for the Waikato region?...call me 021705642 or download the app Marine Mate!


Posted By: righthook
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 7:31pm
is that a realistic figure 4k a year on the leg.....or are you just trying to scare meCry


Posted By: tobez
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 7:41pm
not trying to scare you at all..its better to over budget than under - be mindful that your leg is submerged in saltwater - and taking on an asset, such as a boat and motor and they need maintenence in return you get pleasure. The old saying by grumpy old men - boats are things you throw money at!...they forget that the good times they give over time are priceless. A launch will always be more expensive to run than a trailer boat

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Waikato North Harbourmaster...Got a Nav Safety question for the Waikato region?...call me 021705642 or download the app Marine Mate!


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 8:36pm
That Markline 850 looks like a good possibility. The engine and leg alone is worth around $40k. Just make sure that it is a Bravo 3X drive and not the standard Bravo 3. The X series drives are the ones toughened for the extra torque of the diesel.
Another 32ft boat that will get close to your budget and would be worth looking at is the GulfStream 3200. A Kiwi built boat from the 1990's with good accomodation and fishing room. They are mostly powered with diesels and cruise around 20 - 24knts typically burning around 25l per hour of diesel.
In the bigger picture of your search I would suggest ignoring the petrol inboard boats (resale, danger, fuel cost etc). At this size you are almost certain to be looking at a sternleg boat unless you go for an older design. Sternlegs do need more maintenance than a shaft, but if you do the maintenance regularly and on time, they can be a perfectly acceptable option. I would always choose shaft over sternleg in an apples for apples comparision, but in a ~30ft boat there is no doubt that a Sternleg fitout will give you a better and more useable layout to the boat plus usually better performance. For the difference between a shaft drive and sternleg boat I would suggest budgeting around $1500 per annum for extra maintenance, but you need to be prepared for a possible bigger number of you let the maintenance slip. For best results I would haulout a sternleg boat every 6 months (clean and oil change), but a shaft drive boat is probably fine for 12 months between haulouts.


Posted By: righthook
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 10:16pm
thanks tobez, tagit Thumbs%20Up I believe a haul out isnt that expensive up here,  is servicing a sternleg pretty straight forward could you do it yourself ok or is it a special tools sort of thing?  or would I be better off getting something bigger and older with shafts?


Posted By: MO8
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2008 at 10:48pm
For my two cents worth, I like stern legs, but then my boat, a small launch,is on a trailer.  For something in the water all the time, particularly on a swing mooring, go for a shaft drive.On a mooring you have a lot of water movement past the boat which tends to create a more marine growth. On a stern leg, this  growth, i.e.shell fish around the the drive boot.Unless this is cleaned off regularly, any small movement can and does cause small holes in the boot which allows water ingress causing corrosion then expensive repairs.On a launch, diesel is the only way to go. With size you don't have to go everywhere at 20 plus knots, just plan to be at sea longer.


Posted By: tobez
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 6:40am
Originally posted by righthook righthook wrote:

thanks tobez, tagit Thumbs%20Up I believe a haul out isnt that expensive up here,  is servicing a sternleg pretty straight forward could you do it yourself ok or is it a special tools sort of thing?  or would I be better off getting something bigger and older with shafts?
 
sure you can - if your a mechanic and know what your doing and have the tools..personally if your not one of these then best to let the pro's do it. if you stuff it up it will cost you big time - with a mechanic you also get the added bonus of -'if they stuff it they fix it'
 
what MO8 says is good advice, legs certainly grow alot of oysters or mussels in vital areas, with the bellows being made of rubber any leaks will stuff your gimble bearing and some.
Again its up to you, if you have the time to maintain the leg then it will be sweet. other option is to try and find a v-drive, which i no nothing about and have only ever seen one.
 
you could always get outboards and not have the worry of either


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Waikato North Harbourmaster...Got a Nav Safety question for the Waikato region?...call me 021705642 or download the app Marine Mate!


Posted By: NZTurtle
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 7:44am

Outboards - this is what I was thinking. Is it reasonable to power a 32ft launch with obs. what would people typically do - twin power?? What are the downsides?

Cheers
T
p.. RH Having the same thoughts myself


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Posted By: righthook
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 12:12pm
hey turtle.......we could go halves and get a 40ft Riviera then Thumbs%20Up


Posted By: Blue Asparagus
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 12:19pm
mate i have had a couple of launches, will come up with a few ideas for you, recon you can get a doozey for less than 100k depends??? bayliner mate had 1 and will never have another evvverrrrrrrrrrrr same as my brother we sold both of ours for a reason.

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Ultimate GAME Fishing Adventures. Northland



Posted By: righthook
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 2:22pm
steer clear of the bayliner then I think, its a shame cos they look really nice for the money.....cheers Asparagus any ideas appreciated, 


Posted By: righthook
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 2:37pm
what do you recon to these?
 
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Boats-marine/Motorboats/auction-170767043.htm - http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Boats-marine/Motorboats/auction-170767043.htm
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Boats-marine/Motorboats/auction-169500602.htm - http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Boats-marine/Motorboats/auction-169500602.htm
 
the second one seems really nice but a bit pricy....am I better getting something a bit bigger for this sort of money?


Posted By: NZTurtle
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 3:58pm
Dont go there RH. Was caught prowling the tradeaboat site today and got a smack upside the head...
Naturally enough if you need crew, I'm there :)


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Posted By: cpt pugwash
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 4:46pm
RH, went through the same process 6 mths ago and was fortunate to find what we wanted very quickly, but advise given to me was:
keep away from legs, timber hull and petrol unless you got plenty of dough, twin motors are good for manouverability unless you got a bow thruster, dual helms are good for those sunny days (yeah when), get a pre purchase inspection done they charge a heap but it is worth it, took our guy a whole day and he found a few "minor" things with ours which ended up costing the previous owner $10,000 to fix.
We have twin 250 diesels capable of up to 25knots but again we are now down to 11 - 15, not only are not in a hurry it's more comfortable and much cheaper to run (whats the hurry when your on the water).
At the end of the day make a list of what you would like on a boat by reading through all the adds and magazines even on some of the dearer ones then trim it to whats affordable and available, should be a buyers market out there at the moment, good luck.


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Remember, not all crazy folks are locked up! Some own boats!


Posted By: righthook
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 6:26pm
cheers for the info pugwash,  what sort of money did it cost to get an inspection done and what boat did you settle on in the end?
 
hey turtle get a hard copy of tradeaboat and hide in the toilet........its far safer Ouch  re crew yep no worries just bring the rum Confused
 
 


Posted By: cpt pugwash
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by righthook righthook wrote:

cheers for the info pugwash,  what sort of money did it cost to get an inspection done and what boat did you settle on in the end?
 
hey turtle get a hard copy of tradeaboat and hide in the toilet........its far safer Ouch  re crew yep no worries just bring the rum Confused
 
 

Hull inspection was about $1400. and engineer around $300. Most marine surveyors price by the metre length, ours is a 12.5 at wl, pelin columbia



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Remember, not all crazy folks are locked up! Some own boats!


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2008 at 8:47pm

Columbia - my favourite Pelin design Clap

Definitely get the survey done. I doubt there are many instances where you won't end up with enough information to negotiate at least the cost of the survey off the price, and usually a fair bit more. It is also good 'peace of mind' when you first stick the family on a 'pre-loved' launch and head out wide.

Don't necessarily agree with capt P about staying away from timber hulls though (what is the Columbia?). Typically timber decks give more problems than timber hulls. Timber hates fresh water, but salt water is not such a problem. All hull types have issues (delamination in cored hulls, osmosis in GRP hulls, corrosion in steel or alloy etc), so just make sure that your surveyor is an expert on the type of hull he is surveying.



Posted By: cpt pugwash
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2008 at 10:25am
Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

Columbia - my favourite Pelin design Clap

Definitely get the survey done. I doubt there are many instances where you won't end up with enough information to negotiate at least the cost of the survey off the price, and usually a fair bit more. It is also good 'peace of mind' when you first stick the family on a 'pre-loved' launch and head out wide.

Don't necessarily agree with capt P about staying away from timber hulls though (what is the Columbia?). Typically timber decks give more problems than timber hulls. Timber hates fresh water, but salt water is not such a problem. All hull types have issues (delamination in cored hulls, osmosis in GRP hulls, corrosion in steel or alloy etc), so just make sure that your surveyor is an expert on the type of hull he is surveying.



The columbia is  a cedar core hull with glass both sides, and my understanding is that they are much stronger and light weight than some others.
The mention of wooden hulls was advise given to me mainly to avoid higher ongoing costs due to weight etc, there are some very nice wooden hull boats out there, but they not for me.
And yes the possibility of delamination is another reason for a marine inspection by an expert on the type of hull, as Tagit said, but don't stop at the hull only a good surveyer will do above waterline as well.
Look out for some "experts", use someone reputable.

X = unknown factor, spert = drip under pressure





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Remember, not all crazy folks are locked up! Some own boats!


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2008 at 3:11pm
Cedar core is a bit like balsa core or foam core. Need to watch for delamination and water ingress, but as you cpy P says light and stiff. My own boat (43ft Warwick) is diagonal Kauri, strip plank cedar, diagonal kauri with glass over, and foam cored decks. I have been very happy with it. The heaviest boats are usually the solid glass hulls and they are typically very durable but take more horsepower and burn more fuel, but the weight helps with the ride. I would personally be quite happy to look at a double diagonal wooden hull as many of the older Kiwi boats are.


Posted By: righthook
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2008 at 7:27pm
would a solid glass boat be the least maintainence long term?


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2008 at 10:38pm
Solid glass can be very durable if the bottom has been properly 'laid up'. If the 'glass' is not properly protected it can often lead to Osmosis problems. I would not get too hung up on choosing a certain hull construction type (although personally I am not a fan of foam core below the water line). If you get a good survey done and a clean report when you buy, the biggest risk in terms of cost is likely to be the engine(s) and stern-drive if it has one. Look for good maintenance records and preferably engine/drives that are not too many years old. In most cases in recreational boats a diesel engine will die from 'old age' before it dies of too many hours use.


Posted By: Bushpig
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2008 at 7:43am
Originally posted by jermish jermish wrote:

I was told the other day that quite a high percentage of coastguards callouts in the gulf are to bayliners. Worth thinking about.


From my time in the C-G I can confirm that


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I would rather laugh with the Sinners, than cry with the Saints


Posted By: Dagwood
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2008 at 9:10am
Originally posted by Bushpig Bushpig wrote:

Originally posted by jermish jermish wrote:

I was told the other day that quite a high percentage of coastguards callouts in the gulf are to bayliners. Worth thinking about.


From my time in the C-G I can confirm that


Seconded - nothings changed. To be fair though, I think there are some occasions when their features and price has appealed to those with less experience.


Posted By: tobez
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2008 at 5:11pm
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/STEADECRAFT-28-SPORTFISHER-1986/7043.aspx?N=4294967045+0&Nf=P_Price%7cBTWN+70000+100000%7c -
 this looks liek a real minter
 
 
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/STEADECRAFT-28-SPORTFISHER-1986/7043.aspx?N=4294967045+0&Nf=P_Price%7cBTWN+70000+100000%7c
 
 
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/VINDEX-32-1974/8793.aspx?N=4294967045+0&No=90&Nf=P_Price%7cBTWN+70000+100000%7c
 
 


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Waikato North Harbourmaster...Got a Nav Safety question for the Waikato region?...call me 021705642 or download the app Marine Mate!


Posted By: righthook
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2008 at 6:53pm
cheers guys, Dagwood u hit the nail on the head one thinks......the price and specs on a bayliner really appealed to me, but agree I know bugger all about launchesEmbarrassed easy to get caught out, thats why you guys and the forum are worth your weight in gold!!
 
Tobez,  I love the steadecraft very similar looking to a mint bertram I saw up here for sale, great blokes boat but not acceptable for the SWIMBO im afraid Thumbs%20Down  looking for something a little bigger with more home comforts for the family  (but still will catch marlin).
 
what do you guys recon to formula 33's ever heard of them?


Posted By: Dagwood
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2008 at 7:00pm
Perhaps chartering a few for a season to see what works for you and SWMBO and what doesn't may be an idea before signing such a large cheque?

Another option is some sort of lease / shared ownership scheme. I suspect some of these could be fiscally viable unless you're using it heaps. A lot of boats seem to rarely leave the marina.

Just a couple of thoughts...




Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2008 at 8:42pm
Originally posted by righthook righthook wrote:

cheers guys, Dagwood u hit the nail on the head one thinks......the price and specs on a bayliner really appealed to me, but agree I know bugger all about launchesEmbarrassed easy to get caught out, thats why you guys and the forum are worth your weight in gold!! 
 
what do you guys recon to formula 33's ever heard of them?
 
The Formula 33 hull is also sometimes known as the Vindex 3000 if my memory has survived it's latest alcoholic infusion. Often quite a good value choice with lot's of room/berths etc for your money. There are a few running around with 210hp diesels on V drives that I have been told perform like dogs. I suspect that the sterndrive seup is a better option in this case unless you can get one with more HP on a V drive. I have driven one (wooden hull Vindex 3000)with a 315 Yanmar on a sterndrive and that was a pretty nice match. The early/mid 1990's models were built by Formula boats (or similar) and I have been on a few of these that seem to have handled the use pretty well. I think production then stopped for a little while before Superior Boats started production of what they now call the Superior 1050 or something like that. I have heard a few slightly negative comments about the Superior Boats built ones, but have no personal experience of these to comment on. I would just suggest being a bit more careful in your pre-purchase checks. Personally I would want at least 260hp in a F33, with around 300hp being what I would think of as a good match.
 
Righthook - if you are in Auckland and want to know about some possible charter or boat share options until you sort out whether/what to buy etc, send me a PM and I get in touch to discuss some options.
 


Posted By: sid fishus
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2008 at 9:11pm
Looking at all this from another perspective, I own an american 32ft shaft drive launch single engine diesel which I am about to advertise for sale. Its an older glass boat.
 
The maintenance required rarely been anything to do with the engine which is reliable, shaft drive not much to do but filters, belts etc. But going to a launch that is in the water all year round there is always something to replace or fix.
 
I have a young family and am looking to go back to a smaller faster lower maintenance set up as most outings are day trips. But will miss the space. Reckon whatever you buy in a launch try and find something that has been regularly used, regular use = regular maintenance generally. Boats that sit around unused can have lots of surprises.
 
 


Posted By: righthook
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2008 at 9:58pm
cheers Tagit, great info.......re share etc, we are up north so dont get to Auckland very often although I'm sure that would be the spot to get a share/hire option. The 33 I saw was a late model with a 300hp cummins......quite a bit pricier that we wanted but had all the bells, I'll put up a few links to stuff I'm interested in maybe you guys could run your eye over them?
 
Hey Sid,  dont want to trade against a late surtees 6.1 hardtop do ya Wink 


Posted By: sid fishus
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2008 at 10:17am
I would look at it mate, but my boat is a bit of a boys boat as well, so SWMBO may not approve of it.
 
Happy to discuss it with ya 021 635 189, or PM me.


Posted By: righthook
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2008 at 4:08am
hey sid pm me a few pics and spec, 
 
Guys what do you think of searay boats.......are they another yank thing to avoid or not?
 
cheers


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2008 at 10:58am
Originally posted by righthook righthook wrote:

hey sid pm me a few pics and spec, 
 
Guys what do you think of searay boats.......are they another yank thing to avoid or not?
 
cheers
 
What models, years, and engine type Searay's do you mean?


Posted By: hookerpuka
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2008 at 3:09pm
Im looking at something like this at the moment. sort of in the same boat as thread creater what you guys think to these?
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Boats-marine/Motorboats/auction-168610117.htm - http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Boats-marine/Motorboats/auction-168610117.htm


Posted By: righthook
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2008 at 3:51pm
something like this tagit....not sure whether its a diesel tho? http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=162559385 - http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=162559385
 
or this http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=171809872 - http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=171809872
 
these are a few others i like the look of,  any of these worth viewing you think?
 
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=151651433 - http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=151651433
 
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/MARINER-28-1988/7235.aspx?Ntt=diesel&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=All&sid=117630DFAD57&gclid=CLzO64CbmZUCFQQCagodAQymPA&Nf=P_Price%7cBTWN+100000+200000%7c&N=4294967045+209+0&No=60 - http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/MARINER-28-1988/7235.aspx?Ntt=diesel&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=All&sid=117630DFAD57&gclid=CLzO64CbmZUCFQQCagodAQymPA&Nf=P_Price%7cBTWN+100000+200000%7c&N=4294967045+209+0&No=60
 
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/LIDGARD-SPORTSFISHER-1989/10733.aspx?N=4294967045+209+0&No=105&Nf=P_Price%7cBTWN+70000+200000%7cP_Year%7cBTWN+1985+2001%7c - http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/LIDGARD-SPORTSFISHER-1989/10733.aspx?N=4294967045+209+0&No=105&Nf=P_Price%7cBTWN+70000+200000%7cP_Year%7cBTWN+1985+2001%7c
 
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/OLIVER-3000-1990/9333.aspx?N=4294967045+209+0&No=90&Nf=P_Price%7cBTWN+70000+200000%7cP_Year%7cBTWN+1985+2001%7c - http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/OLIVER-3000-1990/9333.aspx?N=4294967045+209+0&No=90&Nf=P_Price%7cBTWN+70000+200000%7cP_Year%7cBTWN+1985+2001%7c
 
http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/PELIN-ECLIPSE-1993/11568.aspx?N=4294967045+209+0&No=75&Nf=P_Price%7cBTWN+70000+200000%7cP_Year%7cBTWN+1985+2001%7c - http://www.tradeaboat.co.nz/View/Used/PELIN-ECLIPSE-1993/11568.aspx?N=4294967045+209+0&No=75&Nf=P_Price%7cBTWN+70000+200000%7cP_Year%7cBTWN+1985+2001%7c
 
any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
 
cheers
 
 


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2008 at 5:23pm

Quite a bunch there to look at. I will make a few comments and suggest a few things to check on each one. In all cases you are looking at a 15 - 20 year old boat so I would check how easy/hard it would be to remove/replace an engine if required. On some boats it is reasonably simple, but on some others it could be a nightmare.

10m SeaRay - I don't know the SeaRays of this vintage. This may be from the period when they used solid glass in the construction rather than foam core. If it is

foam core I would think twice about it as some of the early foams & construction techniques probably weren't as good as they are today. A good survey would be critical. Twin shafts is I think a great option and 400hp should be great in that hull. You would however have 2 x 20yr old engines to look after so expect to spend some money. This boat was built well before SeaRay started building their boats with the complicated electrics that they use in some models today. That is a good thing from a maintenance point of view. As with any SeaRay, resale may be more of an issue than with a Kiwi built boat, but if you buy it at the right price I guess that isn't such an issue. You would want to take it out and check out the ride in a decent sea to be sure about the handling.

12m SeaRay - pretty much the same comments as above. 980hrs is 20 years isn't much, so has it been repowered or what is the story?

Oliver 33 - Is this a 33' or 43' boat? Specs say 43', but HP, fuel capacity and water capacity etc suggest it is a 33'. If it is a 43' it is grossly underpowered. Even as a 33' it is low on HP. I quite like the Olivers myself, but a single sternleg and underpowered would make it less attractive for me.

Mariner 28 - have a better than average reputation for seakepping etc. Don't know the OMC engine but would assume it is on a shaft. If it is, this would be a +ve. If it is on an OMC leg I would leave it alone unless I was sure of parts availability etc. My concern with this one would be the engine. I don't know that engine and how you would get on for parts and service etc. You would need to research a bit and get it thoroughly checked out. That age Mariner might have the possibility of Osmosis (I think), but the pre-purchase survey will tell you if that is an issue (same comment by the way for the SeaRays).

Lidguard - Nice looking boat. I assume it is going to be double diagonal with glass over hull. Do you know if it is? Anyway, get the hull checked as for the others. If it is glass over ply I would consider this less desirable at that age. What is the engine and what sort of hours on it? The new sternleg is a +ve, but again it is a single engine on a leg which is less desirable than the shaft drive options. Advert talks about being a successful game boat, but that probably means big engine hours unless it has been repowered.

Oliver 3000 - Markline 900 hull is OK, Oliver top looks fine. advert says GRP and GOP. I assume the GOP is the Oliver top and ply decks are notorious for problems with rot. Saltwater will not quickly rot timber, but rain water will. Every screw and bolt hole in the deck needs to be 'potted' with resin etc to stop rot eventually occuring. Get it checked out as it may have been done properly and be fine. Just know that as you add or chnage things on the deck you must do it right. I assume that the 165 Volvo is on a leg. If so, same comments as above.

Eclipse - the Pelin Eclipse is a well known design that has been built in a lot of different sizes and by lot's of different builders. GOP construction so same comments as above - if it surveys well and you look after properly it should be fine, but needs careful checking and proper ongoing attention. I assume that the Volvo is on a leg, but if it is on a shaft and the hull checked out properly I would consider it.

 

A couple of quick comments - boats with Stern legs, USA built boats, and GOP boats are all going to be harder for resale than a GRP or double diagonal hull with a shaft drive. But if they survey well and you buy at the right price this is not really such a big issue.

Twin engines are nice to have, but your maintenance bill is going to be noticeably higher, especially with all the engines being 15+ years old.  Sternlegs will also add noticeably to the maintenance bill when compared to shafts and are another point of possible failure. I personally don't think sternlegs are a complete 'no-no', but you can not scimp at all on the maintenace. Need to pull the boat every 6 months and do the maintenace religously if you are going to be fishing offshore at all. Also need to be very carefull not to wrap fishing line etc around the prop.

 

Of all the boats there I would personally have a look at the Mariner first. If it is on a shaft and the engine is easy to get at you could just spend the ~$30k to put a new 200hp engine in it and feel really comfortable about your ongoing reliability and maintenance. I like nearly all of them for one reason or another, but the Mariner with a new engine would be a nice proven hull with good reliabilty. The down side being that it is probably the smallest of the boats in terms of accomodation if you need the extra space.



Posted By: Moki Marko
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2008 at 6:21pm
HI righthook
I think your getting some good advice here. Don't discount  the original Bayliner idea though. Lots of boat for the money. Those big petrol V8's are thirsty but they are a fraction of the price of a diesel engine, you can replace your whole motor for less than 10k, a 300hp deisel will cost you maybe 5  times that much, you know you can buy an awful lot of gas for $40,000. And now is a good time to haggle with the owner of a petrol powered launch. I like NZturtles's outboard idea too, maybe pick up an engineless bayliner for 30k. and bolt one of those big V8 yamahas o/bs on the back. Whatever you choose, if you think $4,000 is a lot of money for maintenance then get ready for some shocks.


Posted By: righthook
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2008 at 8:44pm
Hey Tagit,
many thanks for all the info and adviceThumbs%20Up,  might have to get something solid GRP and bang a new motor in maybe?  if its anything like our trailer boat fishing we do a lot of hours in the year and go out wide a lot,   never worried when we always have had near new gear in comparison to the sort of stuff I'm looking at now,  hey whats a double diagonal stuff u talk of??  (told u I know nothing)  type of build proccess I take it....advantages, disadvantages?
 
What about what moki said buying a bayliner and banging a new motor in?  basically should I buy a dunger cheap put the bits on know they are new rather than pay double for a "brand" which still could lt me down by the sound of it?
 
 I think This is going to be a lot harder than replacing/choosing a trailer boat, there seems a lot more choice and decisions before I can even narrow down what boats to view!!


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2008 at 9:30pm
Double diagonal is a wooden boat construction technique that is/was reasonably common in NZ and makes a strong, durable hull if good timber is used. There is nearly always a good skin of fibreglass laid over the outside of the hull on the age of boat you are looking at. Plenty of 30+ year old double or triple diagonal constructed boat running around still. Some of the boats you are looking at are types that were probably not built as a 'production boat' and therefore probably were not made as GRP boats out of a mould. In NZ this often means that they will often be GOP or double diagonal. They might also be 'strip plank cedar' and a few other less common (in NZ) processes.
Personally I would not go the Bayliner way as many of their hulls are considered not to 'suit' our sea states, plus they are very much a 'mass produced' boat and there are more maintenance issues to consider than just the engine. The other big issue is that you will almost certainly 'over capitalise' the boat and drop a bundle when you sell it. If teh Bayliner was a petrol engined boat and you want to install a diesel engine, be aware that there are some issues to work through.
A lot will depend on your budget (as it always does), but I would be hesitant about taking a 20 year old single engine, sternleg boat to far off shore unless I had gone through the engine and leg with a fine tooth comb. If you are find yourself buying a boat with say an 15 year old Volvo 200hp on a leg I would budget around $5k - $10k to get the engine and leg removed, heat exchanger(s) tested and serviced, aftercooler tested and serviced (if it has one), injectors checked and serviced, injector pump checked and serviced, all rubber pipes replaced, all belts replaced, raw water impellor replaced, all filters replaced, Turbo checked and serviced if required, any leaky gaskets replaced, oil change done, plus for the leg - new universal joint, new top bearing, new bellows, new lower unit seals, oil change etc
Mostly some pre-purchase checks on the engine and during the sea trial can tell you whether the engine is basically OK or on its last legs. If it is basically OK and has done say less than 1500hrs (in a boat that is not under powered), then spend some money up front to be more comfortable that all the common problem areas are as good as new. Most engines die because of water ingress, cooling issues, or fuel problems. If the engine and leg are basically sound, you service all these areas to 'as new' condition, keep fresh oil in the engine and leg, and you are a long way towards having reliable propulsion.
The other advantages of pulling the engine right out the boat when you do this are that you can clean the engine bay and repaint it vivid white so that any little oil leak is instantly obvious, you can check the engine right through for corrosion, you can check and replace any dodgy looking wiring or connectors, you can repaint the engine for both rust protection and leak detection.
One thing to note is that many of the problems that can occur at sea in a diesel are probably fixable by yourself if you carry some spares and tools. Take a diesel maintenace course and you will be able to do much of your own maintenance (good savings), plus know that you have a much better chance of dealing with minor problems should you ever need to. Once you know them, the diesels you are looking at are much easier to fault find and fix at sea than a typical outboard.
Last comment is that sternlegs usually need their oil changed every 100hrs. This means pulling the boat out of the water. If you do a lot of game fishing you might need to do 3 services per year or more. This does mean you get to check your sternleg on a regular basis, but you will be paying for regular lifts at the boat yard.


Posted By: tugboat
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2008 at 8:16am
Some fantastic advice there tagit


Posted By: NZTurtle
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2008 at 10:45am
thanks for the post Tagit. Some real gems in there.
Just windering ig you haveseen amy launches which have had the internal motor repaced by outboard. I see a 300-350hp o/b doing a good job here (even if not aesthetically pleasing) and wondered if you had any comments re pros/cons?
Cheers again
T


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http://www.legasea.co.nz" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Miss Lidgard
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2008 at 12:26pm
Really enjoying this thread guys. Some great advice there.
Not the quickest or newest  boat on the ocean, but ticks some of the boxes in your first post...
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Boats-marine/Motorboats/auction-168757705.htm - http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Boats-marine/Motorboats/auction-168757705.htm


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2008 at 12:53pm
Originally posted by NZTurtle NZTurtle wrote:

thanks for the post Tagit. Some real gems in there.
Just windering ig you haveseen amy launches which have had the internal motor repaced by outboard. I see a 300-350hp o/b doing a good job here (even if not aesthetically pleasing) and wondered if you had any comments re pros/cons?
Cheers again
T
I would not consider putting an outboard on a boat that was originally shaft drive as the transom would probably be too weak. You also have a bunch of underwater stuff to remove etc. If the boat was originally a stern drive (I/O) petrol powered boat you might consider it after checking the transom fully, but the weight distribution will be quite different to the original setup even if you could bolt the engine to the transom, and you may struggle with getting the trim right. Most likely you would need to put it on some sort of bracket to allow for tilting etc and that would make the weight distribution even worse. I suspect that you would also find eventual resale more of a problem than it would be with a diesel I/O. With any of these I/O petrol to I/O diesel or I/O to O/B conversions you can expect to find unexpected problems that you should allow some budget for. The I/O to O/B conversion would have the potentially very expensive risk of the boat balance being so bad that it may not work acceptably.


Posted By: righthook
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2008 at 5:24pm
Hey Tagit,  top post as turtle says,  turtle for the price of a v8 yam you can get a pretty nice new diesel inboard I imagine......you just want to get to the chicks before me!!
 
what are the best/most reliable diesels to go for?  and what do you think are the most cost effective parts wise to maintain?
 
cheers


Posted By: Moki Marko
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2008 at 6:39pm
Yes I have to admit that the 'outboard conversion' idea is a bit outside the square as far as righthooks original post is concerned but I do think the idea deserves some discussion. My guess is that a 350hp yamaha O/B would produce a similar amount of torque to a 200hp diesel engine, with the extra hp being produced by the petrol engine winding out to a much higher rpm. The O/b weighs considerably less than the diesel so having it further back shouldn't make the bum excesively heavy. The weight is mounted higher up though, but this would be way less significant than having one extra person up on the fly bridge. Economical Big h/p outboards just didn't exist a few years ago although I guess you don't want to be the guinea pig, but lets face it, yamaha produced a V8 o/b to power big boats and I think in the long term would be a far more cost effective option and way easier to live with than any diesel.


Posted By: Goneburger
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2008 at 10:37pm
Righthook - so much has been said already, but I'll just mention a couple of things:
 
a) father in law has a nice Formula 33 - I think one of the last before Superior came into it... is shaft drive with a 300 hp Yanmar. Very good boat, well built, solid, practical. Only things I don't like is has a relatively small cockpit with a largeish overhanging roof caused by the flybridge.
 
b) Sea Ray's generally a very nice handling boats, dry, fairly heavy for size and always very beamy. Well appointed - although imported ones wired on 110v - pain in butt not to be able to connect to mains power at marina. The main problem with Sea Ray especially earlier ones is they pad thier combings and seats etc with vinyl - but don't use marine ply underneath - so everything goes rotten. Also the early ones (late 80's - mid 90's) build technique was to glass over timber stringers in the hull and then fill the cavities with foam. NO problems there  but they don't leave drainage holes in any of the stringer grids - so any water injestion through leaks has nowhere to go. You only need a slight leak and the foam stays wet, can't dry out, eventually water seeps through screw holes, staple holes, where ever and into the timber stringers and bearers. Boat rots from the inside out - very scary and very expensive to fix....  Google David Pascoe - a Yankee surveyor, find his website and review some Sea Ray's he's checked over and more will be explained. They are good boats in terms of ride and fit out - and maybe the late model ones will be better - but I'd be careful and get any Sea Ray thorough surveyed. 
 
Just my 2 c worth anyway -  maybe too small for what you want, but personally I'd go for a nice Steadecraft 28 with a Volvo 200 - smokey engine but built like a brick. I'd go the Express though, as I think the flybridge a bit tippy. Or perhaps hunt around for a Black Watch 26 or Carribbean/Bertram 28 - awesome fishing machines and "big riding boats" for their size - unless you don't want anything under 30 ft... For something bigger in terms of older boats, those Salthouse Corsairs are hard to go past to imho...


Posted By: phantomdeviant
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2008 at 6:33am
Great thread, interesting and informativeClap

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Skirt Pulla


Posted By: tobez
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2008 at 7:44am
Originally posted by one red fish one red fish wrote:

Really enjoying this thread guys. Some great advice there.
Not the quickest or newest  boat on the ocean, but ticks some of the boxes in your first post...
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Boats-marine/Motorboats/auction-168757705.htm - http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Boats-marine/Motorboats/auction-168757705.htm
 
 
nice boat...rolly as a jelly bean on a dash board doing the 309 road..
 
i like the boat hukapuller...nice set up for what you want to do i expect..
 
pelin my choice of that lot..
 
 


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Waikato North Harbourmaster...Got a Nav Safety question for the Waikato region?...call me 021705642 or download the app Marine Mate!


Posted By: righthook
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2008 at 5:50pm
hey guys going to go look at a few boats at opua in the next couple of days, will keep you posted on what happens!


Posted By: ABT
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2017 at 5:35pm
Hi,

I know this is an old post but it has been interestting reading for me as I look to purchase my first launch. I have had runabouts and keel boats in the past, but now I'm really keen to get a launch to enjoy with my young family.

I think have narrowed it down to Pelin Liberty's, Vindex 3000 / Formala 33, or a Vindex 350. They all seem like boats with good reputations and reasonably good value for the size. As I have never been out in one of these boats, some questions I have are:

1) What speed do you spend most of your time cruising at, therefore how relevant is max spped compared to cruising speed. Boats with smaller engines don't have a huge increase in max speed over their cruising speed.

2) If you were heading in to a solid 1m swell, what speed would you be driving these boats at?

3) Is the boating experience much differnt when you have the engine in the cabin vs outside in an engine bay?

4) How much more maintenance does a glass over kauri involve over a GRP? I was looking at a Liberty that was glass over kauri and was really impressed with the finish.

5) Worst case, if there was major work to do on the engine when it's located in the cabin, how hard is that? Do you have to pull half the cabin to bits? Is it actually possible to replace the motor?

6) What is considered a lot of engine hours to the point you would be concerned about major engine work having to be carried out?

These are some of the boats on TradeMe that I like the look of:

Pelin Liberty $125K
https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=1401188191
1986 Pelin Liberty

1986 Pelin Liberty


Vindex 350 $115K
https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=1416978736

Vindex 350

Videx 3000 / Forumala 33
None for sale at the moment. They do seem to sell quite quickly around $130K

As always there is the shaft drive vs stern leg issue, with shafts sounding like the favoured option.

I'd appreciate any comments from any owners or people who have been on these boats.

Cheers
Alex


Posted By: Ugly Trolla
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2017 at 7:25pm
I have a 1979 Vindex 32 hard top fly bridge in good nick with a 315 Yanmar and love it (of course) Here are my views/opinions:
1) What speed do you spend most of your time cruising at, therefore how relevant is max spped compared to cruising speed.  14 - 15 kn, top out at 21kn with a clean bum. Max speed is not that relevant unless you are a speed freak but you need to be on the plane at cruise (over 12kn?). Boats with smaller engines don't have a huge increase in max speed over their cruising speed. Correct they are probably working pretty hard at cruise speed anyway which is no problem to a diesel engine except for fuel consumption 


2) If you were heading in to a solid 1m swell, what speed would you be driving these boats at?  1m swell, 14kn;  1m swell with a chop on top maybe 9-10kn
 
3) Is the boating experience much different when you have the engine in the cabin vs outside in an engine bay? Dont know, never had a stern drive, definite other disadvantages with stern drive in my opinion. 

4) How much more maintenance does a glass over kauri involve over a GRP? I was looking at a Liberty that was glass over kauri and was really impressed with the finish.
A lot depends on how it has been built/kept/maintained, wood rots and fibreglass can get osmosis (been there) GET IT SURVEYED BY A REPUTABLE SURVEYOR!

5) Worst case, if there was major work to do on the engine when it's located in the cabin, how hard is that? Do you have to pull half the cabin to bits? Is it actually possible to replace the motor? There are usually ways to do it - especially if it is a NZ designed boat, bound to be some carpentry required though.

6) What is considered a lot of engine hours to the point you would be concerned about major engine work having to be carried out? More research required here a lot depends on engine, type of running etc 

Those two boats look good, both big volume compared to the Vindex 3000. Popular older NZ boats that you will be able to sell again.

Happy Hunting! 


Posted By: Bossco
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 9:28am
Tagits probably the man to PM re this, but I gotta 32 Caribbean imported from Aussie - boats significantly cheaper on that side of the ditch...

Cruise 18 just due to keep fuel consumption down super low, top speed 27. Is nice to have the option to open her up if you want to get to a work up or home faster.

1M swell depends if hitting it head on and how sharp it is. Running with it 20-22 knots, running into it 14-16 just due to comfort.

Twin shaft motors inside the cabin - all down to your noise insulation but wouldn't touch a stern drive due to the additional hauls outs required.

Really easy to work on both engines just by lifting up the floor panels, can take it completely apart in about 5 minutes and put together in the same time for major work.

Minor maintenace i.e oil checks, replacing filters/belts etc just require lifting up one of the panels and jumping inside the engine bay - heaps of room on mine.




Posted By: Don18025
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 9:53am
Hi ABT, welcome to the world of launch ownership.
I made the change in 2001 when I started building a 9.4 metre Woolley. Slightly smaller than what you are looking at. Sleeps 4.
Never regretted it - launched in 2004. Powered by a 2001 4 cylinder Toyota 1ZK TE Prado engine. 
Good questions
1) 2) we cruise everywhere at 2/3rds maximum rpm at 9.5 to 10 knots all the time and every time. Boat is on plane and it will punch into a 35 knot southerly all the way home from the Barrier at that speed - slow down if the chop is uncomfortable. Top Speed is 17.5 knots at WOT. Fuel consumption is around 10 litres per hour at cruise.
3) Shaft drive is my preference. Walk around the haul out yards a few times and note the number of outdrives detached for overhaul....very seldom see a prop shaft pulled. Engine is central and does make it a little more noisier when under the cabin floor than if it was in the cockpit. 
4) I have no complaints about having a wooden double diagonal hull - mine is Lawsonia with glass over. I estimate glass hulls have a similar amount of maintenance. Maintenance is the key and be prepared to do a lot of it - either yourself or pay a boatbuilder to do it for you. My hull when we turned it over.
 
5) Getting an engine out for overhaul is not difficult. You may have to remove the cabin door and surrounds, but you get a Truck with a Hiab and basically push it in from the stern to lift the engine. We did it the reverse way. I have seen some engineers dismantle the engine to remove it. Nothing is impossible.
6) Want to know about diesels, try and find a copy of Len Gilbert's Diesel Diary book. Worth reading every page. Even the yanks read it - https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?tn=Best+Diesel+Diary
Len Gilbert spoke about engine life in this way; Commercial work engines like a Gardner - 20,000 hour + between overhauls. Recreational use engines about 4000 hours between overhauls. Now there are exceptions - commercial users using the same engine day after day can often exceed what a recreational fisher will do.
I average about 150 engine hours per year, which is high for recreational use....lot more than the two boats you are looking at on Trade Me.

My advice is can you afford it or not afford it. Do not forget the boat will require annual hauling out, regular antifoul applications, replacing stuff ( I am installing new LED lights at present). Batteries need replacing every 5 years, plus regular engine maintenance. I am on my 3rd stove! And always replacing leaky hatch seals (I only have one). 
In Auckland you pay seabed rates on your marina berth....go figure.

I am still young enough to do all this work myself.....but it will soon cost me heaps if I pay a professional to do it. But I have a walk on and off marina and a boat that enables me to enjoy that overnight trip along the coast.

Biggest problem, is that it just accumulates stuff - need to throw out a lot of surplus fishing gear etc. But I would not be without it.
And it is not for sale!



Posted By: pompey
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 10:58am
Great post Don. I had a launch briefly. The thing I did not appreciate was the amount of maintenance and the cost. If you like doing it and are capable of doing it then it is part of the enjoyment of launch ownership. If, like me, you do not like doing it and can't do it, it takes all the pleasure out of boating and fishing and becomes a hugely expensive exercise. ABT, the boats you are looking at will have lots of ongoing maintenance. Be prepared to either spend a lot of time or money keeping up to date with it. Also, not using a launch increases maintenance. Good luck.


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 4:24pm
hi Don
What a practical looking launch,dive/ fish cockpit appears to have room to move,Better hide this from the wife.
maybe looking next winter if things go well this year.
Thoughts on glass over a carvel hull?
Mine are the planks can/do move so glass will eventually crack?


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Sex at 58.Lucky I live at 56


Posted By: Don18025
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 5:58pm
Pompey, you are correct about cost. 
I really enjoyed building my boat, 3 years of new experiences.
The process of ensuing my boat is seaworthy and ready to go means a night trip to the Barrier is a great experience. Last trip on Thursday 31st August left at 5pm, anchored up at 10 pm in Bowling Alley Bay ready for a days fishing and diving the next day.

PJC
No hassles or concerns about a well built carvel hull. 
Glassing a carvel planked hull is not considered best practice (planks are designed to move, swell with the water contact)......unless the hull planks are glued and splined.
Yes my boat was built for diving first, fishing second, large cockpit and open transom.....Plus where a stern drive would be we store dive gear below decks. Photo taken at the Knights.



Posted By: ABT
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2017 at 4:08pm
I have read lots of good posts from Tagit.

It sounds like a shaft drive is a good way to go in order to try and reduce maintenance costs - but there are just so many stern leg boats around, it does limit the search a bit.

I do like the idea of sharing a launch with 2 other people to keep the costs down, and in reality I wont use it as much as I would like. Just need to find some like minded people who want it based at Gulf Harbour as most boat shares in Auckland are at Westhaven.

The Liberty's do seem to range a lot in price for what is an older boat.

What general maintenance is required on a glass over kauri boat and how often? The Liberty mentioned above was repainted in 2015 and the outside of the hull looks immaculate. I like the idea of no osmosis surprises.


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2017 at 7:04pm
Glass over timber is a perfectly good construction technique but needs to have been done well when built and requires a certain type of maintenance attitude. Glass over diagonal Kauri is probably my preferred construction technique for it's combination of strength, lightness, durability and to a certain extent ease of repair.Biggest issue is that you must not drill holes in timber or install screws in timber without sealing the hole against moisture. It is simple and cheap to do but takes a bit more time. It is not uncommon to pull a glass over timber boat out and find the odd crack in the glass below the water line with wet timber underneath. A pin hole can let the timber suck up water and then swell enough to split the glass covering. I fixed one like this a couple of weeks back. The good news is that salt water won't rot the timber in any hurry and all you do is take back the glass, wash and dry the timber (over a few days)r, and reglass/paint it. All very simple DYI activities. The real danger with timber boats is often the topsides where fresh water can penetrate around screw holes etc and this will cause rot. Best practice is usually to 'pot' each screw hole with epoxy. I went around a newly 'renovated' boat the other day and pointed out to the owner all the freshly cut timber that the boat builder had missed sealing. $5 or epoxy and an hour or so of work and he had most of it sorted.This issue with fresh water (rain) is partly why you sometimes see timber hulled boats with composite topsides. That is how my own boat is built.

Full glass hulls if osmosis treated (often an extra vinylester layer or similar) are probably the least maintenance if built well. They are also going to be heavy and chew more fuel, but weight can also improve the ride so good and bad stuff to consider. Solid glass isn't that common in NZ built boats due to our comparatively high fuel prices through history. They are much more common on USA built boats where fuel has historically been cheap. 

The biggest risk are often composite hulls if you can't find any good info about the long term performance of that builders work. As an example the very common Genesis boats have quite a history of hull delamination issues in their composite hulls. Lovely designs but something wasn't quite done right. My view is that it was poor build quality rather than a design issue. I know that I spent a reasonable amount of time pouring epoxy into ours to fix minor delam issues. The danger here is that a private boat may never get the hull checked for delam (it isn't usually visible) and the first sign the owner sees is a broken or sinking boat. I have a vague memory of hearing about a Genesis 3200 that broke up and sunk under way several years ago out here in the gulf. Can't remember any details though. Bottom line is that again it is quite simple to learn to check your composite hull and even the repairs (if small) are not rocket science. The advantage of composite is that it is light yet stiff and can give excellent performance with smaller hp is designed right.

There are trade offs between shafts and sternlegs, especially in the boat sizes you are looking at. A stern leg will generally give you better performance and fuel economy plus a more spacious interior layout and a quieter boat. It is also for the less experienced often a more maneuverable setup. The downside is that you need to do more maintenance. There is no doubt that a shaft is generally a more reliable option and on a single screw boat that is important. Having said that however a Coastguard Membership is $115 per year and with some common sense maintenance you may never need it. It depends on a bunch of things but I would probably budget around $1500 more per year for stern leg maintenance than shaft maintenance (yes there is maintenance to do on a shaft also).
Hope that all helps



Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2017 at 8:02pm
'Tagit" you mentioned shaft seal,3 yrs on with the annual grease my "chatfield dripless"is still not drippingBig smilebest $600 I ever spent,would of done 300hrs on it.

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Sex at 58.Lucky I live at 56


Posted By: Don18025
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2017 at 8:57pm
Excellent summary Tagit....nothing I would disagree with there.

And if I decided to, I would build a new wooden launch tomorrow if I was not extremely happy with my own boat.

My next project is a wooden clinker dinghy - something I have always wanted to build for the first and only time.


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2017 at 9:01pm
PJC - to the best of my recollection I now have around 10,000 hours on one of my Chatfield seals. The other one has been replaced I think at 5000hr intervals however. To put that in perspective, 10,000 hours is between 4 and 5 circumnavigations of the world. They are good units if looked after.


Posted By: MikeAqua
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 9:48am
Tagit, are epoxy composite boats subject to osmosis or is it a polyester issue?


Posted By: OneWayTraffic
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 12:01pm
I know nothing about launches, but can speak to epoxy and potting screws etc. 

Epoxy cures to an extremely watertight plastic. If you mix in the right West system additive then it's even better.

When building my ply dinghy I have an epoxy coat to seal the wood, then a layer of fibreglass/epoxy, then a layer of epoxy with silica and aluminium powder over that. Water isn't getting in. 

If potting screw holes I would do the same were it GRP or wood. Drill oversize and fill with thickened epoxy. Wait for a cure and drill out to the size required. This will both increase pull out force and ensure no path for water to get through and do damage.






Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by MikeAqua MikeAqua wrote:

Tagit, are epoxy composite boats subject to osmosis or is it a polyester issue?
I think it mainly applies to production craft.It is uncured resin/air bubble,water gets in and when popped smell of vinegar. We had a few about the size of a 10c piece,popped  let it dry out,filled with epoxy,hull is 35 yrs old.
Have seen a 2yr old hull virtually worthless,basically the outside cloth(nearest gelcoat) completely rippled.



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Sex at 58.Lucky I live at 56


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by pjc pjc wrote:

Originally posted by MikeAqua MikeAqua wrote:

Tagit, are epoxy composite boats subject to osmosis or is it a polyester issue?
I think it mainly applies to production craft.It is uncured resin/air bubble,water gets in and when popped smell of vinegar. We had a few about the size of a 10c piece,popped  let it dry out,filled with epoxy,hull is 35 yrs old.
Have seen a 2yr old hull virtually worthless,basically the outside cloth(nearest gelcoat) completely rippled.

I am no expert on Osmosis but I believe that the most common occurrence is in boats built of Polyester resin and laid up using chopper guns directly under the gelcoat. This was common practice for quite a while but I believe that many manufacturers now lay up vinylester as a bottom layer as it is less prone to osmosis issues than polyester is. Epoxy itself I think is actually pretty good from an osmosis point of view but is more expensive and hence is usually applied as a paint seal on the finished hull rather than as part of the construction. Interestingly we have had a bunch of fibreglass trailer boats sitting permanently on the water for years now without any hint of osmosis. They all got 5 coats of epoxy primer though before the  antifoul and that may be why they have been so good.


Posted By: ABT
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 9:49am
Does anyone know much about the Fairline Corniche. They seem to be a fairly well regarded UK made boat. Full GRP with twin shaft drives, Volvo 200hp's. Listed for $99K.



https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=1286912470

Did all manufacturers from around the world potentially suffer from osmosis?


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 10:03am
Must say rather appealing to me and I am a wind buldger looking at converting.

Had a discussion last night on osmosis,general opinion is hulls that were layed in up humidity controlled sheds using polyester hand layed in the 70/80 did not suffer to bad.But hulls layed up using chopper guns suffered but no definite answer.
Dad had a davidson 28,factory finished and no sign of osmosis yet his mate had the same factory finished and it suffered around the port bilge.

Plywood rots if not treated,steel rusts if not looked after,grp can have osmosis,concrete hates water and rocks and on it goes till you have it surveyed. 
Back to glass boats did the layer have a good day or thought F@#k it and rushed?


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Sex at 58.Lucky I live at 56


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2017 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by ABT ABT wrote:

Does anyone know much about the Fairline Corniche. They seem to be a fairly well regarded UK made boat. Full GRP with twin shaft drives, Volvo 200hp's. Listed for $99K.

https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=1286912470

Did all manufacturers from around the world potentially suffer from osmosis?
I think Fairline in general are regarded as a decent manufacturer. What you are dealing with however is a pair of pretty old Volvos and a lot of other old systems. If you are handy yourself and the hull surveys OK then biggest issue other than old Volvos will be ease of access to get at everything that might need maintaining. Also need to carefully check that old wiring as rewiring a production boat can be a very expensive issue.


Posted By: Reel Deal
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2017 at 4:18pm
Since we have some good heads on this thread. Any comment on Volvo Penta IPS motors? Same amount as servicing as other leg drives? resale? I understand they are 30% more economical while giving better performance...

Yes Tagit - still looking....

 

 

 

 



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The gods do not subtract from the allotted span of men's lives the hours spent on fishing - Assyrian Proverb


Posted By: Don18025
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2017 at 5:06pm
Reel Deal, they have only been available for about 10 to 15 years.
I only know one guy who has a boat equipped with them. Very new, 4 years old so the experiences have not been spoken about. But his boat is very fast for its size.
We need a lot more installations and many more hours on them to pass any judgement.


Posted By: pjc
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2017 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by Don18025 Don18025 wrote:

Reel Deal, they have only been available for about 10 to 15 years.
I only know one guy who has a boat equipped with them. Very new, 4 years old so the experiences have not been spoken about. But his boat is very fast for its size.
We need a lot more installations and many more hours on them to pass any judgement.
My of thinking that stern drives are more suitable to trailer vessels,lakes/sea beach landing similar to an outboard.
stern drives are your gear box steering and thrust all in one,being alloy and left in salt water even with leg up still suffers from corrosion(have seen 2 costly examples at the club)
Shaft driven 2 things only 2 worry about cutlass bearing in strut,not often needs changing,stuffing box/dripless gland both can worked on in water if needed,can pull gear box while in water if needed.

My way of thinking could be wrong but when we do buy launch it will be shaft driven.


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Sex at 58.Lucky I live at 56


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2017 at 6:53pm
We haven''t managed a IPS boat yet but I know of a couple of them and the maintenance can get very expensive. They are still so specialised that the service agents appear to think of telephone numbers when they write the bills. Not too much info for the home maintenance guys and not enough volume in the market for anyone other than the manufacturer reps to to all the training etc.

As for the performance difference I am not convinced that you will see a true 30% fuel saving. We have recently started managing a 45ft sports cruiser with the Cummins/Merc Zeus drives on it. Similar to the IPS but they point the right way. Supposedly just a tad less efficient than the IPS drives. That boat weighs about the same as Tagit and is marginally longer but without the flybridge is less volume and less wind resistance. At around 24knt cruise it's liters per NM are almost exactly the same as Tagit's lpnm at 18knts. So you get there a little faster with a faster cruise but use the same amount of fuel. There is certainly some extra fuel efficiency but I can't see that it is anything like a realisable 30% in real world usage unless maybe you cruise fast a lot (think of our weather here).
On the other hand, parking a pod drive boat is very pleasant. Just question whether the 5 minutes parking the boat at the end of the trip is worth the extra costs and maintenance hassles if there isn't a huge fuel saving. I have seen some of the bills for work done on these Zeus drives and also on some IPS drives. Don't try and go there is you are on a budget would be my advice.


Posted By: ABT
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2017 at 3:35pm
I'm still here and still browsing for boats. I'm sure this thread will be useful for many other people looking...

Today I looked at a Salthouse Cosair MK2 - $155K

https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=1215895627



I have read that people rate these quite highly. Looked like a good solid boat with great spaces. Only usual downside is an older motor and stern drive, but that seems to be a big part of launches in my price range.

Anyone had any experience with one of these? Price seems pretty good.


Posted By: Don18025
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2017 at 4:20pm

I do not own one but I have always admired the Salthouse Corsair.
They have been an excellent launch that have performed consistently well.

You have chosen a launch built by one of NZ's longest established boat builders and they may still have some staff on their crew who built this hull. Wow.
My only concern is that engine has done no work at all. 1992 engine only done 1200 hours, that is less than 50 hours per year.....get a good diesel mechanic to check it out thoroughly, and if all okay you have the chance to knock up a lot of enjoyable time at sea.



Posted By: fritzhu
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2017 at 11:58am
I'm not sure if this is helpful or not, feel free to ignore me if it isn't :)

My parents are selling their launch. Bayliner 3288 if I remember right, very nice layout. Enclosed flybridge with clears. Twin Hino diesels on shafts, can't remember the hours but it's something like 1300 (it has been repowered, I'm told). Everything works, has been converted to 230V.

I can't remember what they want for it, but I think it's in the low 100's, and includes the berth lease.

If you would like to know more feel free to PM me, I'm sure they'd be happy to take you out on it too.


Posted By: SaltyC
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2017 at 1:28pm
ABT, I have owned a MkII Salthouse corsair since 1995 so happy to chat if you are still looking at Legacy, I think I know the engineer who has serviced the motors as well.

PM me a contact number if you are still interested in it and I will contact you, my handle , SaltyC is actually my boats name Salty Corsair


Posted By: Garry 23041
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 7:46am
There is a reason why all big machines, trucks, boats are diesel.....forget anything else in a large boat.
Plus many docks away from cities don't even have petrol for sale...

Don't buy bigger than you need for your use or crew size.
boats increase in volume exponentially as you go longer/wider.
More anti foul more berthage, harder to single hand, more boat to clean bird **** off etc.

Keep the boat as simple as you can for your use.
If you are not staying on the boat regularly you don't need freezers, showers, and stuff.
Everything you add has to be maintained.

Get solid glass as preference (opinion) in a launch and be very careful of older ply launches.

Legs are fine if you look after them. I do my own and it's a few hundred a year. If you can't do your own it may be a real expense.

I would not step up to a boat with twins if I could help it, if you have the money though who cares about maintenance...

If you are not a big time game fisher or will be spending lots of nights away as I do think about your need for a launch in the first place. Tons of guys game fish from decent trailer boats now anyway.

Mine is glass, has a single diesel, no shower, no frills but it's great to get away for about 3 days at a time which tends to be my use.

Don't be seduced by horsepower, it can cost money to run.

The old rule of thumb with yachts was 10% of the purchase price per year in costs outside of fuel and worked pretty well.

I do everything myself and am under that figure. (till something big lets go).


Posted By: ABT
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2017 at 8:54pm
Another question I have as I narrow down my search. Is it a big disadvantage on a flybridge launch not to have a helm station downstairs? You get the benefit of more accommodation, but is it harder to berth? In rougher weather is it better to be helming up top or down below?


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2017 at 11:53pm
I have a flybridge helm in my 44fter and cockpit controls (for playing fish etc)but no saloon controls. I also get to drive boats with saloon controls as well so experience both. These are how I see it -
If the boat is big enough to have a comfortable flybridge you won't want to helm downstairs due to the reduced visibility. However, in rough weather the flybridge gets very lonely as the crew all scutlle downstairs to be more comfortable. Can be lonely when game fishing long hours, but game fishing at saloon level is a pain due to the reduced visibility. So saloon controls give you improved sociability but reduced ease of control and reduced fish/bird spotting due to the much reduced visibility. They do give better comfort on rough weather, but personally I like to be able to see the waves clearly and steer the boat accordingly to improve the ride.
When docking with any sort of crew the flybridge controls give you visibility of all 4 corners of the boat if well set up. Crew do the ropes where you can see and instruct and life is simple. From saloon controls you often can't see any corner well and need the crew to be more self sufficient. If you have cockpit controls you can use these to dock the boat solo if needed. I used mine a lot for this when the kids were too small to help and my sub 50kg wife was too small to help much either.
There are some excellent retrofit electronic controls available to add extra stations if needed and even remotes that would allow you to helm from the saloon if you wanted to without adding a full station.
Bottom line for me is that I would have the extra space over having the saloon controls but think about retrofitting either cockpit controls or remotes using electronic throttles.


Posted By: Garry 23041
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2017 at 6:36am
Once again tagit is onto it.

I don't know much about this being a saloon boat guy but want to add that cockpit controls in addition would be the go.

Comms have them for good reasons and I think you need to be able to do stuff on the boat when solo as much as you can.

An autopilot with remote might be some help if no controls on deck level?




Posted By: ABT
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2017 at 8:08am
Thanks Tagit, that is really helpful.

I have seen a few boats with just a throttle leaver and autohelm buttons in the saloon which seems like a good compromise.

I can't seem to find much information on someone that would setup a retro fitted saloon helm or auto pilot with electronic controls. Do you know of anyone or a system that is good to install. Is having a joystick control an option? I couldn't find much info of this type of setup except for fancy IPS drives and modern twin outboard setups.


Posted By: Don18025
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2017 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by ABT ABT wrote:

Thanks Tagit, that is really helpful.

I have seen a few boats with just a throttle leaver and autohelm buttons in the saloon which seems like a good compromise.

I can't seem to find much information on someone that would setup a retro fitted saloon helm or auto pilot with electronic controls. Do you know of anyone or a system that is good to install. Is having a joystick control an option? I couldn't find much info of this type of setup except for fancy IPS drives and modern twin outboard setups.

ABT, it would not be to difficult to setup a downstairs station for your autopilot controls, and throttle/gear selection control.
But there is one big drawback, based on a friends experience.
He had a 40 footer on Sydney Harbour with upstairs control station and throttle/gear and autopilot controls downstairs.
Sold the boat to a guy in Melbourne who first trip headed out across Port Philip Bay at 25 knots. Moved downstairs for drinks on autopilot. Failed to keep watch and wrote the boat off on a reef. 
He got no insurance for a A$700,000 boat.
Failed to keep adequate watch on the vessel course and proximity to hazards.
he had also failed to sign the boat up for insurance before leaving on his first trip.
ABT if left alone upstairs, you can keep a suitable watch on your course, other craft and you are unlikely to be distracted. 



Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2017 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by ABT ABT wrote:

Thanks Tagit, that is really helpful.

I have seen a few boats with just a throttle leaver and autohelm buttons in the saloon which seems like a good compromise.

I can't seem to find much information on someone that would setup a retro fitted saloon helm or auto pilot with electronic controls. Do you know of anyone or a system that is good to install. Is having a joystick control an option? I couldn't find much info of this type of setup except for fancy IPS drives and modern twin outboard setups.
If you are in Auckland I can probably get someone to set you up. I arranged to bring in a bunch of sets of electronic controls for a bulk forum buy a few years back and a couple more sets again after that. Everyone loved the improvement in control as well as the added additional stations. 
The rudder can be controlled with a simple toggle/rotary switch off your autopilot really easily but like some of the discussion above I am personally wary of autopilots as they encourage too much laziness in watch keeping. When discussing this with people I always quote the day fishing out of Tutukaka when I took emergency steering action to avoid Sunfish popping up in front of me 13 times in one day. Any one of those could have dinged a prop or busted a rib in the hull. IN all of those 13 instances you can guarantee that at least one would have got expensive. Autopilot is great for night travel however when you can't see anything anyway.
If you want to know more about getting something setup just pm me.


Posted By: ABT
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2017 at 6:04pm
After reading the comments here and chatting to some others about autohelms, I think this is not the ideal way to achieve a second helm station. I thought it might be an easy way as autohelms come as kits ready to install - but not cheap!

What I want to achieve is being able to helm from downstairs occasionally, but do not have the desire to change the cabinetry to fit a wheel and duplicate all the gauges. Ideally having something like a joy stick or dial that takes up limited space but can give reasonable control. I would still have a second throttle control installed in the saloon.

I agree from experience on a yacht that as soon as you start using the autohelm you pay less attention to your surroundings, and this is potentially much more dangerous on a launch.

A guy mentioned that maybe I just need servos hooked up to the hydraulics with a control of some sort to achieve remote steering.

Cheers for all your comments. 


Posted By: AndyR
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2017 at 7:04am
We were anchored off maraetai fishing the other day in our mac420 when a large launch appeared running at a good speed dead straight for us. I started to get real nervous until fortuately when he was about 400m away there was an abrupt swerve.    Presumably he was on an autopilot and not watching.


Posted By: Garry 23041
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2017 at 8:07am
Yes Andyr autopilot can get you into trouble.

Traditional boats are better at that 7-9 knot cruise but modern boats are cruising at much higher speeds and you can cover the ground quickly..

One of my friends is commercial local and was returning to Mangonui (8 knots) and still doing chores as he approached the mouth.
He was aft and looked up to see a small boat just about to go under his bow.
He did a hard helm over and just missed the tinny and nearly swamped it.
He said he felt terrible so he dropped the power off and threw the boat around on full helm to go back and beg forgiveness and hand out some fish or something.
He figured the guy must have been really mad because he was pulling up his anchor in a fury.
As he got straight and headed back the guy started his boat put it in gear and instead of coming to him gave it full throttle and sped away....
He said it took a couple of minutes for him to realize the poor bugger thought he was coming back for anouther go!


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2017 at 10:21am
I have seen a longliner up north running through a bunch of rec boats on autopilot while everyone was out the back baiting the lines.7m tinny just barely managed to get out of the way and when he called out to the longliner the crew just pretended they couldn't hear anything. No one went back to the helm and obviously getting a few extra baits done was more important than possibly killing someone. If it isn't after dark I really don't have any use for auto pilots. Too many sunfish, logs and containers etc let alone other boats. Two boats on auto pilot don't see each other!



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