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Yamaha F150 Owners - READ

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URL: https://www.fishing.net.nz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=101959
Printed Date: 29 Mar 2024 at 6:45pm


Topic: Yamaha F150 Owners - READ
Posted By: Tagit
Subject: Yamaha F150 Owners - READ
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2014 at 9:47pm
In 2005 we bought a new Yamaha F200 for our fleet. A little later we bought a pair of F150's. Within a few years we were hit in the F200 with the now famous Yamaha oil seal and exhaust corrosion issues. This turned out to be major issues for 100's (1000's maybe) of owners, whilst Yamaha did their best Ostritch impression when confronted with the growing evidence. It appears that there are now class action legal suits under way in the US regarding this issue. 

The F150's though have run well for 900 hours until a wee alarm popped up the other day. It is a low oil pressure warning. The engine runs and sounds fine apart from a miss around 2000rpm which is a 'safe mode' type action that happens when the oil pressure alarm is active. When the alarm isn't active (mostly isn't) the engine runs like new one. Based on what I was seeing and hearing I figured it was a faulty oil pressure sender, but won't know for sure until we put a mechanical oil pressure gauge on it next week. 

This weekend I started looking around the web for a parts supplier. We get 80% of our parts off shore now due to the high margins often applied by the NZ dealers (not just Yamaha - actually they aren't as bad as some others in this regard), so did the rounds of the guys we normally use plus googled for any new ones. WELL, googling Yamaha F150 oil pressure quickly became a very scary thing to do. No, I didn't end up at websites involving donkeys, goats and naked bodies. What I did find is that there is a very serious issue with the F150 that if you own one you need to be aware of. 

On the F150 there is a 'counterbalancer' unit which helps smooth out your engine. As I understand it, it has plastic gears that eventually tear apart and fill your oil passages with debris. It seems that the most common reported issue is that the screen in front of the oil pump gets clogged, so catch it in time and you can hopefully avoid any damage. The first sign is often a slight whining noise (haven't heard that in ours), and the next sign is the oil pressure alarm, or a destroyed engine. Some independent commentators on this say that this is not a 'will it happen to my engine' problem, but a 'WHEN will it happen to my engine' problem. The bit of reading I did found cases that happened anywhere from 30 hours or use to over 1000 hours, and anywhere in between. Seem to remember there was one case mentioned on a 2010 F150, so not sure what years are affected, but it would appear that the fix might have come a long time after the problem started showing up.

If you are an F150 owner I would love to know if you have had this problem, and if you haven't had it, have your service guys told you to watch out for it? This appears like it might be another 'Ostritch' response, but maybe we just didn't get the letter. 

So if you are an F150 owner, google Yamaha F150 oil pressure and have a read. There are even some youtube videos that demonstrate the whining sound you need to listen out for if you are lucky enough to catch it before losing your engine. If you do have a higher hours F150 and like to go wide, have a good think about whether some preventative maintenance might be a good idea.

I am going to do a proper oil pressure test on our engine this week. Then pull the counterbalance units off both of them for inspection. If the oil pressure is low on the bad engine I am pretty sure that we have caught it before there is any real damage, but the fix will be pulling off the powerhead, cleaning the oil pump screen, then doing some fluffing around to clean out the oil passages as best we can, and finally fitting a new counterbalance unit. I can't tell you how much I hate paying these companies for parts to replace things that they designed wrong in the first place. Not only do they let you down with their quality, they then go on to make extra profit from doing it. It is just a morally bankrupt attitude as I see it. Altogether another $1000 or so and a couple of days work which could have been avoided if we had known a bit earlier that the counterbalance units are badly designed. Don't like to think what it might cost of you just drive it in to your local Yamaha shop. If anyone knows I would love to find out.





Replies:
Posted By: full sacks
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2014 at 10:05pm
have thanked you there dave don't own one but now people with, back in my engine building days mitsi engines had issues with these shafts, are the replacements constructed in the same material ? hate this sort of crap, yep that google is bloody good tool for that stuff good luck chief.


Posted By: plastic
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2014 at 11:31pm
I was just reading about the counter balance shafts on hull truth last night. there have been four new generation fixes for this problem and still they fail. utube has videos of engines with and without the balance shafts and no noticible difference in vibration, I think they remove the gears so the shafts dont turn but keep the oil passage holes blocked. Price in usa is around $380 and small socket set required. Classic tell tale  is a chirping sound at idle. Counter balance shafts quite common on 4 cylinder engines over 2.5 liter


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Why is the man who invests your money called a "Broker"


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2014 at 1:50pm
Will bump this for a few days until hopefully everyone who needs to read it has.


Posted By: coxie
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2014 at 5:45pm
Yep mitsubishi engines are well known to have problems with their balance shafts, and in the few mitsi engines I have built they have been removed altogether, from memory just install the bearings at a different rotation to block off the oil gallery.
You'd think with a problem like this with a company like Yamaha they would put out a recall or something to get it remedied before it has a chance to ruin the brands reputation...


Posted By: rahui
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2014 at 6:20pm
does this happen across there whole range of 4 strokes


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2014 at 6:45pm
Different issues on different models Rahui. As far as I can find out only the F150 has this balancer issue.


Posted By: full sacks
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2014 at 7:49pm
yep bang on coxie , rahui don't think they will be in the smaller displacement stuff. just had a look dave it seems she's a bolt on job to the crankcase, can see how they fail two shafts threw one gear running twice as fast THE BALANCE SHAFTS NEED BALANCE SHAFTS.


Posted By: pompey
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2014 at 8:14pm
Got me worried . I have 2012 F150. Seems like the problem still exists even in the newer models?
Thanks for bringing this to our attention,


Posted By: Ballsout
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2014 at 8:17pm
Who dose all your engine servicing tagit


Posted By: kaveman
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2014 at 8:22pm
OMG, these motors were regarded as the best of there HP range.

Next stop..... Honda for me


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www.kavemantackle.co.nz


Posted By: Capt Asparagus
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2014 at 8:38pm
Chatting to one who knows today, suggests just removing the whole balancer thingie.

Kaveman! Suzuki! :-)

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It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.

Captain Asparagus, Superhero, Adventurer.


Posted By: krow
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2014 at 8:47pm
I haven't got one either but I know someone who has just brought the very latest model and wonder if this too could be the same block? 


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2014 at 9:03pm
I don't know Krow. Get him to google up the specs and check it out. I suspect however that Yamaha might have fixed this by now, but like with many of these semi-generic Yamaha issues they are not great at distributing that information. I guess saying that you have fixed something would involve admitting that it was broken in the first place, and that might have consequences should another class action get launched. 


Posted By: DezzyTooToo
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2014 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by kaveman kaveman wrote:

OMG, these motors were regarded as the best of there HP range.

 
Only in the eyes of Yammy and Mercury owners   Big smile


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I love cats ......... I just can`t eat a whole one .


Posted By: DezzyTooToo
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2014 at 10:24pm
Originally posted by DezzyTooToo DezzyTooToo wrote:

Originally posted by kaveman kaveman wrote:

OMG, these motors were regarded as the best of there HP range.

 
Only in the eyes of Yammy and Mercury owners   Big smile
 
 
That wasn`t very compassionate of me ....
 
I`d be fork`n` gutted if I had one of those 150`s`and read that about it .
 
 


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I love cats ......... I just can`t eat a whole one .


Posted By: Kings Marine
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 9:04pm
Yep done several F150 Yams with that and other common problems that havent been raised yet.


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The Mighty Waikato
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kings-Marine/100476476662857?%3Fref=ts


Posted By: RC1
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 9:21pm
All outboard makes and models have certain parts that wear out than others, I think in this case Yamaha have been really good and most of them have been taken care of under warranty. With all these late model engines it does really pay to have them serviced at a local dealership or someone who has a close affiliation with a dealership in this case Yamaha therefore any issues should be rectified as per service bulletins when the engines get serviced.

Tagit you must not get your engines serviced at a Yamaha dealership, if these had failed while the engine was out of warranty, it should be in Yamahas best interest to get the engines repaired.

Kaveman, the Honda BF150 also has a balancer shaft. Will you still go Honda Wink

Guys you have nothing to worry about your F150 balancer shafts, I would however say and recommend use your Yamaha dealership or Yamaha trained serviceman who has an affiliation with a Yamaha dealer, not just any old service business for servicing, that way if something goes wrong it will get repaired and any issues will be sorted.

Any questions please feel free to pm me,

Cheers Russ


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 9:52pm
Hmmm, last time I 'talked' (wrote) to Yamaha about a known issue with one of our engines they didn't bother responding. Owned lots of Yamaha's back then so was very disappointed. In fact, in that particular case it seems that their service agents weren't getting given much information either aye Russ Wink. Now a class action suit launched in the US, so I guess they didn't quite get that one right.

I would be interested to hear from any F150 owners who have had their Yamaha service agent proactively warn them to watch out for signs of the balancer failing. From the public info available it sounds like waiting for the next 100 hour service after the problem starts with a slight whining noise may be too late? If going to a Yamaha agent doesn't get the information passed on to you before your engine fails, I can't see how that is going to help very much? The reality is that it wouldn't take much for Yamaha to write to the original owners of these engines and pass on the warning, but that would mean admitting some sort of liability I expect. As for getting your Yamaha repaired out of warranty, it seems that it does occasionally happen, but there seem to be lots more owners out there who didn't get help than there are who did. Which of course then raises the question as to why some did get help and why many others did not. Seems like a rather bad way of managing your customers really.


Posted By: RC1
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 10:11pm
Thumbs Up  well said techo, I agree




Posted By: Rob Optimist
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 11:00pm
Wonder who "techo" is

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               "attitude is everything"


Posted By: Sassy1
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2014 at 11:04pm
I was informed by my service agent of a known problem with a fibre gear on the balance shaft of my F150. If it fails it would block oil ways.
They offered to fix it for me and I agreed.
When I ran the boat next it had a strong vibration at about 3000 to 4000 rpm.
I returned the boat to the agent who informed me they had cured the fibre gear problem by cutting the teeth off the fibre gear. Thereby preventing the teeth shearing off but it also stopped the balance shaft from working. This fix was sanctioned and recommended by Yamaha.
After contacting Yamaha again and explaining the vibration problem the agent was sent a proper fix that was a complete new balance shaft assembly that includes a oil feed to the gear.
Once installed the vibration disappeared. Yamaha advised the service agent the part ($2k'sworth) would be supplied at no charge as a sign of good faith not as a product recall.
When I sold the boat/motor last year the dealer who sold it on behalf asked if the modification had been done yet so they were well aware of the issue.


Posted By: rahui
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2014 at 2:03am
Originally posted by Conder Marine Conder Marine wrote:

All outboard makes and models have certain parts that wear out than others, I think in this case Yamaha have been really good and most of them have been taken care of under warranty. With all these late model engines it does really pay to have them serviced at a local dealership or someone who has a close affiliation with a dealership in this case Yamaha therefore any issues should be rectified as per service bulletins when the engines get serviced.

Tagit you must not get your engines serviced at a Yamaha dealership, if these had failed while the engine was out of warranty, it should be in Yamahas best interest to get the engines repaired.

Kaveman, the Honda BF150 also has a balancer shaft. Will you still go Honda Wink

Guys you have nothing to worry about your F150 balancer shafts, I would however say and recommend use your Yamaha dealership or Yamaha trained serviceman who has an affiliation with a Yamaha dealer, not just any old service business for servicing, that way if something goes wrong it will get repaired and any issues will be sorted.

Any questions please feel free to pm me,
Is this issue a design fault or a part that just wears out over time and with annual services would be picked up and dealt with. before it became a problem. it is hard to think a great brand like yam would not be on the ball

Cheers Russ


Posted By: of2fsh
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2014 at 7:45am
" techo". The name on your profile is " a boat" another trust worthy dealer on a public forum hiding behind a false name pushing his barrow



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2009 and 2010 BERKLEY SOFTBAIT COMP CHAMPS,Runner up 2013 ( solo),winner 2013/14 longest kingfish nz fishing competition


Posted By: Kings Marine
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2014 at 9:15am
Yep Honda BF150 has a balance shaft..... but the big difference is Honda can do 2000hrs ++++ without this item failing, while the brand you are talking about has a history of regular failures

If it is in the manufactures "best  interest" to sort the problem why have they let it get to the point of court action in the USA and they still wont sort it out. I havent heard of a recall by the manufacture to sort this and other problems they have ????
Does anyone here know of a recall by the manufacture to sort out the problem ???



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The Mighty Waikato
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kings-Marine/100476476662857?%3Fref=ts


Posted By: Olfart
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2014 at 9:27am
Originally posted by of2fsh of2fsh wrote:

" techo". The name on your profile is " a boat" another trust worthy dealer on a public forum hiding behind a false name pushing his barrow

There are quite a few on here hiding behind false names on their profiles.  For the most part I take what they have to say with a grain of salt. 


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Semper in excreta sumus, solum profundum variat....





Posted By: Derek F
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2014 at 9:36am
Originally posted by Kings Marine Kings Marine wrote:

Yep Honda BF150 has a balance shaft..... but the big difference is Honda can do 2000hrs ++++ without this item failing, while the brand you are talking about has a history of regular failures

If it is in the manufactures "best  interest" to sort the problem why have they let it get to the point of court action in the USA and they still wont sort it out. I havent heard of a recall by the manufacture to sort this and other problems they have ????
Does anyone here know of a recall by the manufacture to sort out the problem ???

A Honda technician told me that "Honda are very conservative releasing new products compared to other manufacturers". Sometimes they can't wait for a new product but Honda won't release it untill it's been tested to death.

Just passing on his view.....and he knew I wasn't in the market so it wasn't a sale.


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And the trouble is, if you don't risk anything, you risk even more...Erica Jong


Posted By: Kings Marine
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2014 at 9:48am
[QUOTE=Conder Marine]All outboard makes and models have certain parts that wear out than others, I think in this case Yamaha have been really good and most of them have been taken care of under warranty. With all these late model engines it does really pay to have them serviced at a local dealership or someone who has a close affiliation with a dealership in this case Yamaha therefore any issues should be rectified as per service bulletins when the engines get serviced.

Tagit you must not get your engines serviced at a Yamaha dealership, if these had failed while the engine was out of warranty, it should be in Yamahas best interest to get the engines repaired.

Kaveman, the Honda BF150 also has a balancer shaft. Will you still go Honda Wink

Guys you have nothing to worry about your F150 balancer shafts, I would however say and recommend use your Yamaha dealership or Yamaha trained serviceman who has an affiliation with a Yamaha dealer, not just any old service business for servicing, that way if something goes wrong it will get repaired and any issues will be sorted.

Any questions please feel free to pm me,



Hey Russ
Im one of the "any old service business for servicing" you talk about above and yet I seem to discover more issues than a lot of the "dealerships" that you also talk about. I am confused as to what you mean, is it because I no longer work for a big dealership that I have magically lost the accumulated knowledge of 29years fixing outboard motors or that because I am a small shop, I am not capable of working on a particular brand of engine ?


Hey by the way you obviously dont know this but the Honda BF150 balance shafts dont prematurely fail and dont have a design problem. But I guess being a "affiliated dealer" you would already know this aye !!!!!!





-------------
The Mighty Waikato
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kings-Marine/100476476662857?%3Fref=ts


Posted By: Capt Asparagus
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2014 at 10:17am
Now now let's not get into a slanging match between us, stay on subject regarding the issues of the motor eh?

Actually a thread on known issues with motors would be interesting.... What to look for and what to expect from various motors as they become apparent.
Not at all a name and shame thing, but simply an advisory of what to look for if you have such and such a motor.

-------------
It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.

Captain Asparagus, Superhero, Adventurer.


Posted By: pompey
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2014 at 10:28am
Interesting comments above . Recently I purchased a new F150 after the original 330hr F150 had so many problems and with the cost of repairs I decided to trade in on a new motor. I am wondering if that was a wise move. Anyway, upon getting my new motor fitted by an award winning Yamaha agent, I found after cleaning on the first trip that the lock nut securing the hydrolic steering arm ( I think that is the part ) was only finger tight. Also, when lifting the motor to a point for trailering , the hydrolic unit was crushed into the transom. I contacted the owner of the business and he didn't believe me and asked for photos which I took and sent him. To his credit he came and picked it up the next morning and sorted it out. One of his guys delivered the boat back the next day. He was apologetic, explaining that the bloke who set the new motor up had only been working their a few months and was NOT an outboard mechanic, but very good mechanically. So, although my issue was fixed promptly to my satisfaction, I was not having the job done by a trained Yamaha technician, rather someone that thought they knew how it was done. This was at an award winning dealership, certficates on the wall and all that stuff. So have to agree with Kings Marine that some smaller service technicians that are not part of a dealership network may be just as good or better than the shops promoting their brands.


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2014 at 11:25am
Pompey - for good servicing what you need to find is a good mechanic. That usually (but not always) means industry trained, and certainly experienced. The 'brand name' of the business they work for is far less important. As you just discovered, the $100 per hour you paid for the 'brand name' was really for the ~$18 per hour lower skilled guy they employ. What you really want to know is who is servicing your engine rather than the name of the shop. Some shops do provide excellent supervision and quality control so that can be a factor, but at the end of the day nothing is better than having the guy who really knows turning the wrench on your engine.


Posted By: MikeAqua
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2014 at 11:27am
I can't believe that design level problems are happening with four stroke engines.  The four stroke petrol engine has to be one of the most mature, resolved mechanical designs on the planet.

The balance shaft has been worked out for decades in cars, and it's not like problems with plastic gears are new either - even in outboards

A modern, naturally aspirated four stroke car engine is a bullet proof device if well maintained.

Maybe that is why Suzuki and Honda 4S. 





Posted By: Raging Bull
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2014 at 11:32am
What Tagit said. 
I have a bloke I take my outboards too, and although he is an "approved agent" what's more important to me is that I know him  personally. I know him or his business partner (two man gang) are the only ones who will be touching my outboard. 

I also know that if they are going to do something it is because it needs doing and I will be charged a fair price. 

I also know if they do make mistakes, as all humans do, they will stand behind their work and put it right. 


Posted By: Derek F
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2014 at 12:03pm
Quote......
Actually a thread on known issues with motors would be interesting.... What to look for and what to expect from various motors as they become apparent.
Quote

That's a good idea.  I bet most of us have discovered issues common to certain engines.


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And the trouble is, if you don't risk anything, you risk even more...Erica Jong


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2014 at 12:11pm
Derek - I sometimes post threads like this as a heads up to other owners when I am sure that the problem is one that is occurring on many engines rather than 1 or 2. Trouble with having an open thread like this on 'all problems' is that it will get highly 'political' and require lot's of policing to make sure that 'trolls' like Techo who posted on this thread (before getting deleted) don't get involved. 

If anyone has a particular issue that they have researched and found to be a common issue with a particular engine then please post up what they have found. Easier to moderate the potential problems on a single thread like that, and if necessary lock the thread if it gets out of hand without locking away lots of good posts with the bad ones.


Posted By: kaveman
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2014 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by Kings Marine Kings Marine wrote:

[QUOTE=Conder Marine]All outboard makes and models have certain parts that wear out than others, I think in this case Yamaha have been really good and most of them have been taken care of under warranty. With all these late model engines it does really pay to have them serviced at a local dealership or someone who has a close affiliation with a dealership in this case Yamaha therefore any issues should be rectified as per service bulletins when the engines get serviced.

Tagit you must not get your engines serviced at a Yamaha dealership, if these had failed while the engine was out of warranty, it should be in Yamahas best interest to get the engines repaired.

Kaveman, the Honda BF150 also has a balancer shaft. Will you still go Honda Wink

Guys you have nothing to worry about your F150 balancer shafts, I would however say and recommend use your Yamaha dealership or Yamaha trained serviceman who has an affiliation with a Yamaha dealer, not just any old service business for servicing, that way if something goes wrong it will get repaired and any issues will be sorted.

Any questions please feel free to pm me,



Hey Russ
Im one of the "any old service business for servicing" you talk about above and yet I seem to discover more issues than a lot of the "dealerships" that you also talk about. I am confused as to what you mean, is it because I no longer work for a big dealership that I have magically lost the accumulated knowledge of 29years fixing outboard motors or that because I am a small shop, I am not capable of working on a particular brand of engine ?


Hey by the way you obviously dont know this but the Honda BF150 balance shafts dont prematurely fail and dont have a design problem. But I guess being a "affiliated dealer" you would already know this aye !!!!!!

Agree with you KM, the Honda give 5 year warranty and the 150hp is based on the race proven technology in their race care engines.
Dont see them giving much troubleWink





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www.kavemantackle.co.nz


Posted By: gap74
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2014 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by Conder Marine Conder Marine wrote:

All outboard makes and models have certain parts that wear out than others, I think in this case Yamaha have been really good and most of them have been taken care of under warranty. With all these late model engines it does really pay to have them serviced at a local dealership or someone who has a close affiliation with a dealership in this case Yamaha therefore any issues should be rectified as per service bulletins when the engines get serviced.

Tagit you must not get your engines serviced at a Yamaha dealership, if these had failed while the engine was out of warranty, it should be in Yamahas best interest to get the engines repaired.



Kaveman, the Honda BF150 also has a balancer shaft. Will you still go Honda Wink

Guys you have nothing to worry about your F150 balancer shafts, I would however say and recommend use your Yamaha dealership or Yamaha trained serviceman who has an affiliation with a Yamaha dealer, not just any old service business for servicing, that way if something goes wrong it will get repaired and any issues will be sorted.

Any questions please feel free to pm me,

Cheers Russ


What a crock of s$&t !!


Posted By: Time_Bandit
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2014 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by of2fsh of2fsh wrote:

" techo". The name on your profile is " a boat" another trust worthy dealer on a public forum hiding behind a false name pushing his barrow



wheres his post gone?

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“Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.”



Posted By: of2fsh
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2014 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by Time_Bandit Time_Bandit wrote:

Originally posted by of2fsh of2fsh wrote:

" techo". The name on your profile is " a boat" another trust worthy dealer on a public forum hiding behind a false name pushing his barrow



wheres his post gone?



Took it to a Yamaha dealer and they denied ever seeing it also said nothing was wrong with it so he brought a merc and lived happily ever after

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2009 and 2010 BERKLEY SOFTBAIT COMP CHAMPS,Runner up 2013 ( solo),winner 2013/14 longest kingfish nz fishing competition


Posted By: Bossco
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2014 at 7:38pm
You don't need to go to the dealer or dealers authorised 'agent' for any servicing or minor repairs. You only need to use them for repairs you want to claim on warranty. A few of them were trying to claim that your warranty would be void if you didn't.


Posted By: alan syme
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2014 at 7:27pm
late arrival to this thread. interesting reading. thanks for sharing tagit.

what did "techo" say? did the mods pull it?


Posted By: Raging Bull
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2014 at 8:25pm
Nothing really wrong with techos post, but the user didn't comply with the rules of the site so the posts and the user have gone!


Posted By: Space Boy
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2014 at 3:26pm
What was the outcome of your f150 problem.Sleepy


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2014 at 10:02pm

The thing with the funny diagonal lines is the remains of the fibre gear. It used to look like the steel gears next to it. We assume that the rest is neatly distributed through parts of the oil system, which is why we have an oil pressure issue. We are going to replace the balancer and oil pump, and have a go at cleaning out the oil galleries, but it may be that a full rebuild is needed. This problem may be a lot more common than your local Yamaha rep will tell you about, so if you own an F150 I would read up and pull it for checking. Some reports say that this is a 'when' not 'if' failure. Takes about an hour to do the check and no special tools required. Just note the bit about getting the alignment right. Dead simple, but got to do it the right way.
On another note, I have just been told that there is also an issue developing with F150 oil pumps failing. I was told that the hardening is failing on them and a large Yamaha dealer is starting to replace a lot of them. Might be worth thinking about doing a 'serious' service after 5 years or maybe 1000 hours and replacing the balancer and oil pump as preventative maintenance. The oil pump is a full power head removal job, but better that then destroying your powerhead. If anyone gets any out of warranty support from Yamaha for these issues I would love to hear about it. Be especially interested if anyone got support prior to something actually failing. If these were car engines there would probably be a recall for these faults, but so far I don't think there has even been a public statement to say that you need to be aware of these issues if you own one of these engines.


Posted By: Ballsout
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2014 at 10:14pm
Think buying a new motor may help, I wise things last for ever to but they don't no matter what it is?


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2014 at 10:23pm
To be honest there have been so many major issues with so many new Yamaha models that I would rather invest in a model where the issues are at least known and manageable. Changing out one engine of a pair for a different brand isn't an option, and as far as I have heard, Yamaha still haven't guaranteed that they have fixed the balancer issue on even the latest F150's. I wonder if the 'wonderful' new 4 cylinder F200 has a balancer on it also??
What really needs to happen is for the manufacturers to be held accountable for not delivering the quality that they say they are selling. I believe it may be possible under NZ consumer laws, but it needs a pissed off 'non-commercial' user to instigate the action.


Posted By: Ballsout
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2014 at 6:38am
Yea I under stand what your saying, but everyone would of had a bad run with boats, cars, outboards anything. I can see your had a bad run with one of your f150 outboards which Is unlucky, but I'm sure there ten times more people on this site that love them. Do you service the motor your self? And if you fell that there needs the consumer laws act over this well go do it and are happy to waste your time and money trying? I'm not a service person or have anything to do with Yamaha, I see there a lot of Yamaha on the back of commercial boat so they must have something right.


Posted By: the angler
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2014 at 7:51am
I don't think you can call a poorly designed engine component that fails unlucky stinkbait , inevitable would be a better word .
I'm no engineer or mechanic but am I the only one thinking what the hell is a carbon fibre gearing doing in there in the first place !!.
It's quite obvious down our local boat ramp that suzuki is the new Yamaha .


Posted By: Capt Asparagus
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2014 at 8:28am
Stink bait, I think you'll find that Tagit has a somewhat larger range of outboards in his control than just one f150, and has his finger on the pulse of what is going on in the industry pretty well. His charter boat company operates dozens of outboards, it is his job to know about this stuff!
Makes me feel quite comfortable about my decision to go suzuki....and I have bought 11 of them this last year, from 250 to 2.5hp! ( not all for the same boat, obviously :-) )

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It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.

Captain Asparagus, Superhero, Adventurer.


Posted By: the angler
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2014 at 8:39am
11 ! Stop it.


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2014 at 8:45am
It is not a case of us having a bad run with a one-off issue. This, like several previous issues on other engines is a case of the manufacturer selling products that have generic design or manufacturing problems affecting 1000's of people and then failing to take ownership of what they have done. Just 'watch this space' over the next few years and see how many of the currently happy owners start hitting the same issues as these engines age. Even if your F150 doesn't fail, once the problem becomes common enough it will be regarded as a potential lemon during resale. This has already happened with the F225's. Unfortunately it seems to be standard practice that the service agents tell them "never seen that before" or "only affects very few engines" etc and only the owners with access to forums like this ever get the full story. 
For us, we can source the parts at a reasonable price offshore and do our own work, so the cost isn't so high. For many who walk into their local Yamaha shop after hearing something funny happening in their engine the cost will be $1000's. 

Like the F200 failing oil seals, the F225 corrosion, the F350 Broken cranks/flywheels etc, only the people who read public forums get the full information about what is really happening. Note that at least one of these cases seems to be being addressed in the US courts via a class action, which (so I have read) has finally seen Yamaha take some (limited so far) steps towards appeasing the affected owners in an effort to limit their liability under any class action. As I understand it, this however was only targeted at the owners who had collected together under the "BoatsUS" organisation. I guess that they are a little worried about their true liability, but seem to have specifically targeted redress at only those who are a threat to them. Again, if you aren't properly informed, you might just get ignored. It seems that the threat of seeing their actions judged in a court of law might be the only thing that will achieve a reasonable response. Compare this with the letter I just got from Toyota who want to replace the axles (at their cost) on my 17 year old Prado because they might break under severe usage.

As for doing something under the consumer laws here, we can't as the relevant sections don't apply to commercial users like us. I get given a huge amount of information from various sources about these type of generic issues on marine engines and I share the relevant bits on this forum to try and help people be better informed. I have even once been threatened with legal action for sharing some of it. Of course it was an empty threat given that you can't 'sue the truth', but it showed how important these forums are by demonstrating how important being in control of information distribution is to the manufacturers. Being informed is your best protection if you don't want your relatively new engine to leave you stranded in building seas 20 miles offshore one day, or maybe stranded on the wrong side of a bar etc.

Many current marine engine manufacturers have got away with some seriously bad/stupid design/build defects that have affected 100's of owners purely through those owners not understanding (and certainly not being told) that their problems are part of a generic issue affecting many of the same engines. If all the information was available to all the owners, there would be multiple suits running against multiple manufacturers today. The fact that they can hide behind the publics lack of shared knowledge is why these forums can prove so valuable. What is really annoying is that if marine engines were cars there would be recalls done for many of these issues purely because the legislation around cars is so much better formed to protect the consumer from exactly these types of issues.

Below is one explanation of a current US class Action regarding the F225 exhaust corrosion (note we had the same issue in our F200, but it isn't as common as it is in the F225. For those that aren't familiar with the issue, the dry side of the exhaust system rots out and eventually destroys your engine unless you pick up on some small signs (uneven idle etc). The initial response from many Yamaha shops was "you aren't flushing your engine properly". That helped confuse things a little until the owners finally read the public forums where they learned that the affected area has no water flow through it at any time. Still, 100's of owners paid $1000's to get their engines fixed without ever understanding that this was a design defect. I guess some are still religiously flushing their engines for extended periods to 'prevent' the problem reoccurring. My guess is that in a few years you will be able to rewrite the below explanation by replacing "F225" with "F150", and "dry exhaust corrosion" with "failed balancer". Main difference is that the F150 problems seem to be occurring at higher hours than the F225 problems. I have heard though that changing the balancer is now part of the 'new' 1000 hour service. That would have been too late for us, but it seems the first step in admitting that there really is an issue. Just get ready for a very large bill when you get to 1000's hours though. Wouldn't life be a little better if you actually received what you were lead to believe you were buying.

"The lawsuit is brought on  behalf of a class of current and former owners of Model Year 2000-2005 Yamaha F225 four stroke outboard boat motors (“Class Motors”) with defective dry exhaust components (the “Defect” or “Dry Exhaust Defect”).

This action arises from Defendant’s failure, despite its longstanding knowledge of a material design defect, to disclose to Plaintiff and other consumers that the Class Motors are predisposed to corrosion-based failure. The Dry Exhaust Defect—which frequently manifests shortly after the limited warranty period has expired—will inevitably cause a substantial portion of the Class Motors to fail. Once the Dry Exhaust Defect manifests in the Class Motors, they must undergo expensive repairs to remain operable.

Significantly, when the Dry Exhaust Defect occurs it poses a safety risk to the operator and passengers of the boat. The Dry Exhaust Defect can cause reduced performance and maneuverability, as well as a significant risk of breakdown at sea, with all the risks inherent in such situations.

The complaint claims that not only did Yamaha actively conceal the fact that particular components within the dry exhaust system are defective (and require costly repairs to fix), they did not reveal that the existence of this defect would diminish the intrinsic and resale value of the Class Motors and lead to the safety concerns described within.

For customers with vehicles within the written warranty period (which extends for 3 years), it appears Yamaha has made repairs following failures. However, because gaining access to the corroding area often costs several hundred dollars and it is not visible without this expensive effort, these engines are corroding during the warranty period unbeknownst to many thousands of Class Motor owners.

Yamaha has refused to take any action to correct this concealed design defect when it manifests in Class Motors outside the warranty period, despite the fact that substantial corrosion—leading directly to the failures—is occurring during the warranty period. Since the Dry Exhaust Defect typically manifests shortly outside of the warranty period for the Class Motors

Despite notice and knowledge of the Dry Exhaust Defect from the numerous consumer complaints it has received, information received from dealers, an article published by USBoat, and its own internal records, Yamaha has not recalled the Class Motors to repair the Dry Exhaust Defect, offered its customers a suitable repair or replacement free of charge, or offered to reimburse its customers who have incurred out of pocket expenses to repair the defect."



Posted By: Kevin.S
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2014 at 8:46am
Originally posted by the angler the angler wrote:

I'm no engineer or mechanic but am I the only one thinking what the hell is a carbon fibre gearing doing in there in the first place !!.


There are two possible reasons it isn't metal;

From an engineering perspective the reason for a non-metallic gear in a gear set is as a safety feature. If there is a possibility of something jamming, and it would cause a major mess doing so, then designing in a weak link that will fail first is reasonably common. A better quality approach to the same thing is to have a gear locked onto the shaft with a pin that is sized to fail before serious damage is caused.

From a manufacturing perspective the reason for this gear being plastic, not metal, is that plastic gears are cheaper and lighter than metal ones. Weight and cost are both things that they will try to cut down, so it's a win-win. Someone will have done analysis on the gear and assessed that the load it carries could easily be managed by the material they made it from. Unfortunately there weren't long term wear tests of the part in service, but I'm guessing this issue doesn't usually surface until the engine has done more hours than they tested it for.

I don't have any knowledge of this engine, so can't comment which of the above reasons is the one.


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2014 at 8:56am
Back in the 1970's when we were building engines for our 'street rods' we did a project on a V6 Ford engine. We had to choose the version that didn't have the fibre camshaft gear because they 'fell apart'. Nothing really new about fibre gears falling apart, but you would think they might have learned something in the 30 years since then. Just as a small additional note, the general 'word on the street' is that after multiple new versions of the balancer (which of course is not anything to worry about), there is still no guarantee that the problem is fixed.


Posted By: MikeAqua
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2014 at 10:23am
If my memory serves me correct Suzuki produced some 2S outboards in the 1980's that had -plastic gears it the oil system which were prone to failure.  A friend's family had a Suzuki motor on their boat which had this issue.

Not raising this to bag Suzy, just to agree that this type of failure is nothing new.

Very manufacturer has issues.  Good manufactures acknowledge and rectify them, at their expense.

Unfortunately the contemporary trend is to deny the problem, and either carry on or quietly make changes to address the problem.  There are many examples, including companies that have a reputation for quality products.


Posted By: cirrus
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2014 at 12:05pm
Wasnt that long ago that if anyone even considered a brand other than Yamaha ,people would give sideways funny looks ,so confident we all were about Yammy. How times change. Who would have thought.

On a side note have looked at my Honda Warranty. When it comes to corrosion it seems to be a grey area. Faulty manufacturing or workmanship is as far as it goes.


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2014 at 1:13pm
Corrosion is a 'grey area' for most of the manufacturers. Too many variables so they tend to write it out of their warranties.


Posted By: MikeAqua
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2014 at 1:42pm
Remember in NZ, if you are the original purchaser, the consumer guarantees act trumps the manufacturers warranty.  I used the CGA to persuade Sony to repair a 5-year old television, in which a low voltage rail failed.   If push comes to shove the commerce commission is there and for an outboard I would have no hesitation involving them. 


Posted By: bpmy
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2014 at 4:09pm
Anyone have any recommendations for outboards in the 115 range? 


Posted By: Luigi
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2014 at 10:16am
Originally posted by bpmy bpmy wrote:

Anyone have any recommendations for outboards in the 115 range? 
       Jeez having just ordered a new boat with the latest 115 put on it ?? Ive got the hibee jibbes now ?

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Fish and enjoy life ! as no one gets out alive


Posted By: MarkE
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2014 at 11:05am
Originally posted by bpmy bpmy wrote:

Anyone have any recommendations for outboards in the 115 range? 


Suzuki

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Sea Strike 18' Centre Console - Under Construction.... http://www.fishing.net.nz/asp_forums/sea-strike-18-build-thread_topic87723_page1.html" rel="nofollow - Build Thread here


Posted By: 3rnzir
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2014 at 11:44am
115 Optimax


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Peace.Via superior firepower..


Posted By: 3rnzir
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2014 at 11:45am
Or even a 125 Optimax,same block/weight.


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Peace.Via superior firepower..


Posted By: FarmerBrowne
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2014 at 3:14pm
Interesting thread this and good to keep everyone alert to motor issues

We have a 08 F150 and have done over 1700 hours without any issues as yet.

Motor is regularly serviced every 100 hrs by Condor marine.

Also some reasonable feedback on Epic Adventures website re their previous Yammy F150



The motor has been ordered and given the run we've had out of our current Yamaha F150 with 5000 faultless hours it was always going to be a Yamaha 4 stroke. Can't say enough about the reliability and economy, the run we've had out of it, and its fish raising capabilities. About the only issues we've had over that time have been the throttle cable being replaced twice and gear box being reconditioned but that is more a factor of how hard the current boat has been driven on fish, being in and out of gear all the time backing up to hold position over fish, and also having to be on and off the throttle all the time in a head on sea in the current boat



Plenty of good intel on the net about this issue and since Tagit started this thread I have also developed a degree of whinitis which means my ears are tuned into the motor for any hints of whining whenever it is running

Some pretty good intel on the process of changing out the balancer unit at the following link

http://www.reelfishingadventures.net/Extra%20Pages/will_it_blow_up.html



Posted By: RaggedJoe
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2017 at 6:56pm
Sorry to raise and old thread and also hijack it a bit. I can't get water out the telltale on my 2014 F150 on the hose flush connection. We are on farm water and I don't think we have the pressure. Sometimes it will come out, but no way once the salt away connection is put on, obviously reduces the flow even more.

Finally gave up and cut a slot in the side of a 200litre plastic drum. It's a pain as its not possible to tilt down into without dragging the drum along a bit. And depth is only just enough. Lots of bubbling around the exhaust by pass vents.

My questions for you experts.

1. Is my drum deep enough? Vents are just under the water, quite a bit of cavitation when running in the drum.
2. Should I try the double hose option, one to the static flush and one to muffs. Then run engine with both connected.

Cheers


Posted By: REIVER
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2017 at 7:55pm
Hi RJ I use my 115 litre fish bin to flush the motor. I have a 200 Optimax and it works just fine. Lower motor into the bin, fill it up and start the motor. I prefer to do this than run it on the muffs.

115l would be the minimum size I would say.



Holds a good feed of fish as well


Posted By: Legacy
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2017 at 8:02pm
If the f150 is like the f200 you'd probably need more depth than that fishbin .


Posted By: RaggedJoe
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2017 at 8:04pm
Thanks, Nice haul!!

How deep is the bin? I reckon I need 550ml at least. Cut drum is only about 500.


Posted By: REIVER
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2017 at 8:28pm
Just measured it RJ, 40cm. Too shallow for yours by the looks.


Posted By: RaggedJoe
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2017 at 8:34pm
Thanks for doing that! Yep 40cm won't cut it for mine.


Posted By: CBF-Whk
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2017 at 10:48am
If running two hoses is an option go buy another set of muffs and put the hose connecting side from both onto one set and flush with two hoses.

CBF
Whk


Posted By: RaggedJoe
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2017 at 1:01pm
Thanks CBF, from the reading I have done, Yamaha don't recommend just muffs. Also two taps at the beach house equals half the pressure to each hose. Family banned from showering etc while I am cleaning boat as it is..

But muffs and the static flush together with Y from same hose has some followers. Apparently the static flush primes the top of the engine and allows the water pump to push water up from the bottom more easily...

Yamaha agent I spoke to said "give it a go, cant hurt" but I'm not convinced.

I think bottom line is I need a deeper tank. But $10 for 2nd hand 200 litre was pretty attractive option as a trial.

Any one know where I can get a 600mm deep trough at least a metre long?


Posted By: Ohsoslow
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2017 at 1:12pm
Are the water pick up ports under water in the tank you've got now? If so then no problem.. The exhaust being underwater doesn't matter.


Posted By: RaggedJoe
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2017 at 2:05pm
Yes they are. But then the Yamaha dealer pointed out another small intake behind the skeg above the prop!


Posted By: Ohsoslow
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2017 at 2:12pm
Pretty sure that is a small intake to help cool the inside of exhaust/gearbox at speed, not an issue if you're just idling in a tank..


Posted By: RaggedJoe
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2017 at 2:25pm
Yep, I am pretty sure I am over thinking it! Thanks.


Posted By: Denny Boy
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2017 at 2:30pm
I'm probably missing something here but the motor shouldn't need a lot of water pressure to flush. All it needs is enough water flow. Think of the motor in the water, where is the intake in relation to the position of the water pump especially when it is up on the plane. The water pump does it's own pulling of the water into the leg and once primed then pushes to the motor itself. I would go looking for the real reason (assuming you have enough water flow?) like a blockage in the water circuit itself. I can think of a time that I dredged the bottom one day in my boat. The intake dragged in some weed and the first thing it did was block up the tell tale. I wound up having to drop the leg off and do a clean out. Food for thought??


Posted By: RaggedJoe
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2017 at 2:43pm
Thanks for the reply, but the tell tale flows beautifully while using at sea and also while running in the drum. It just wont flow on the static flush (hose connection) or muffs (as others have also reported with these engines). Drum is a pain to use, 200 litres of precious water every time and depth is only juuust enough.

Tempted with static flush and muffs together from Y connector in hose, but just wanted to canvas opinions. Cheers


Posted By: Dunwurkn
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 8:33pm
Bumping this old thread. Does anyone know if the balancer issue is resolved now in new f150 outboards?

Cheers


Posted By: FarmerBrowne
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 10:11pm
Probably a good question to ask on The Hull Truth.  I do know I got 2000 hrs on my f150 before the dreaded balancer whine started.
 
Got it replaced and the old balancer still looked fine i.e. no wear in the teeth
 
However the new motors on my new rig are a different colour


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 10:57pm
I suspect that the new F150's have the balancer well sorted. Trouble with Yamaha is that you can never be sure because they won't even admit there was a problem in the first place let alone give you any decent details about if/when/how they fixed it. The good old internet forums just share information around until there is a reasonable understanding of what the hell happened and what Yamaha did to fix it.


Posted By: Garry 23041
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 8:53am
I know a guy who purchased a second hand Yam that blocked the oil flow and destroyed itself within a week or two of fitting, poor bugger.

I had also read the repairs/fixes had been different plastic parts that did not work?

Plenty of guys getting great runs out Yams all over the world but you don't want to draw the short straw.

For as much as they cost these issues should be properly corrected at recal regardless of make and quickly, but that's not standard practise.

Must be cheaper to face the legal action down the track.


Posted By: Tagit
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 11:09am
I haven't looked into it too much but I seem to remember that the Consumer Guarantees Act gives you something like 6 years of cover if there is a 'known' deficiency in the product as opposed to an act of god type failure which is covered only by warranty. It would be interesting to see someone take a case like this through the CGA as it could put some real pressure on the NZ agents to sort out their act over these types of semi-generic problems. I am guessing it would get to a "good will" settlement coupled with a non-disclosure agreement prior to any CGA decision being made. 
I started researching this a little a few years back with a view to taking on both Yamaha and Volvo over the cost of fixing their design/manufacture problems on some of our engines but the first thing you read is that it doesn't cover businesses.


Posted By: Dunwurkn
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 7:50pm
Very interesting thanks guys will hunt around for some online feedback in the American forums


Posted By: Dunwurkn
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 8:18pm
Seems to be ok from 2013 onwards from what I can tell



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