Trim/tilt unresponsive

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    Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 8:59am
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Platinum
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Early 90's 50hp Yamaha 2-stroke with the proper separate tilt and trim rams.
Went for a fish on Saturday morning, trimmed down fine, drove out to our spot, fished for several hours, came back in, went to tilt it up at the ramp and nothing was happening either up or down.
Jumped in and opened the manual release screw to tilt it up and get home.

Testing with a multimeter shows the solenoid is working; there is 12v on the wires going to the tilt motor when the switch is pushed.

The only weirdness I have found is that when I hit the switch either up or down I see 12v on both the blue (up) and green (down) wires; since there's no voltage differential across the motor it obviously doesn't do anything.

I have tried disconnecting one of the wires to see if it was a fault in the solenoid/wiring but still the same.

Any ideas? Trim/tilt motor perhaps? However I'm anecdotally told that these normally fail slowly rather than suddenly.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 9:50am
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Titanium
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If it is a 3 wire feed to the trim motor you shouldn't be able to see +12v on the earth wire so maybe bad earth if you can. If it is a 2 wire feed then the solenoids probably reverse the polarity to go up and down so check the earth connection to the solenoids. Seeing +12v on either side suggests that the trim motor windings are intact so I would first hunt the earth connections.
I can't remember whether the older Yamaha motors work with 2 windings (3 wire system) or a single winding (2 wire system with solenoid voltage reversal) but a quick look at the solenoid wiring will probably tell you which you have.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote OuttaHere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 10:01am
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It's a 3-wire setup, I see +12v on both the up and down wires simultaneously when I hit the trim button in either direction, possibly a short between the 2 windings?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Foxtrot Oscar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 10:36am
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Sort-of reads like the switch is faulty - delivering +12v to both Bl & Gr wires.

Bypass the switch (Disconnect it or the harness) and using a remote battery or jumper leads apply +12v to one wire/terminal (Bl or Gr) and Earth return the Black wire to the battery -ve post.

If the trim motor runs then the problem is the switch. Possibly corrosion internally?

Good luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote OuttaHere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 10:45am
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Originally posted by Foxtrot Oscar Foxtrot Oscar wrote:

Sort-of reads like the switch is faulty - delivering +12v to both Bl & Gr wires.

Bypass the switch (Disconnect it or the harness) and using a remote battery or jumper leads apply +12v to one wire/terminal (Bl or Gr) and Earth return the Black wire to the battery -ve post.

If the trim motor runs then the problem is the switch. Possibly corrosion internally?

Good luck.

If I remove one of the wires from the solenoid I still get 12v on that wire, meaning it's getting there via the trim motor. I just don't know if that's normal or not - my multimeter is reading juuuuuust above a dead short between the up and down wires, but I asked a friend to check their known-good one and they got a similar reading.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Foxtrot Oscar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 11:17am
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"similar reading" indicates 'normal'?

I'm just suggesting you isolate each component (starting with the switch) and using your multi-meter, follow the voltage from the battery outwards.

You only have 3 major components - Switch, Solenoid, Motor and some wiring...

Where are you based?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 11:34am
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Are you getting a solid earth on the earth wire? One way to wire a 3 wire motor would be a single main winding with a centre tap rather than 2 independent windings. That would mean that you would get your +12v on each lead even with only one of them activated. High current windings on a motor like that may only be very low ohmage so not strange to see it as close too a dead short on your average meter. Check your earths.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote OuttaHere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 11:57am
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Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

Are you getting a solid earth on the earth wire? One way to wire a 3 wire motor would be a single main winding with a centre tap rather than 2 independent windings. That would mean that you would get your +12v on each lead even with only one of them activated. High current windings on a motor like that may only be very low ohmage so not strange to see it as close too a dead short on your average meter. Check your earths.

Mmmm that's a good point, will check the earth tonight. It's pretty hefty and earthed to the starter earth but will give it a good looking over.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 1:02pm
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Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

Are you getting a solid earth on the earth wire? One way to wire a 3 wire motor would be a single main winding with a centre tap rather than 2 independent windings. That would mean that you would get your +12v on each lead even with only one of them activated. High current windings on a motor like that may only be very low ohmage so not strange to see it as close too a dead short on your average meter. Check your earths.
 
I agree, the resistance across the motor will be very low. Armature current on a motor like that is limited by impedance rather than resistance Star.
 
The fact that you have voltage present on the
+ve and -ve suggests to me the motor windings are intact. There is a possibility the windings are shorted but then you would be blowing fuses hopefully. Check the earth to the motor is good.
 
The best way to test the earth on a 12v system is to use your voltmeter rather than an ohmmeter. With the +ve probe of the meter on a clean exposed part of the motor and the -ve probe on the battery negative you should see more or less zero volts on the meter display. Any significant voltage reading will show the voltage NOT getting to your motor.
 
It is still possible there may be an internal fault in the motor. The best way to eliminate that for sure is to put a supply directly to the motor terminals to see if it runs.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote OuttaHere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 1:51pm
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Like I said the ground is hefty but possibly the cause of all my woes. Will investigate it thoroughly this evening... I was measuring the ground at the engine block so will check it at a couple of other locations for good luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote OuttaHere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2018 at 9:16am
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Ha, gave the ground wire a wiggle and the wire dropped off the end of the crimp connector. Issue resolved, thanks all :)
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Foxtrot Oscar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2018 at 9:37am
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Good news.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2018 at 10:34am
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Thanks for the followup report. I spent 10 mins yesterday writing you some extra diagnostic ideas but the damn system didn't post due to the dodgy internet I was using and I was too busy to rewrite it. One of the first things on the list was to try and bend the earth wire at the crimp edge and give it a decent tug. A huge % of electrical issues on boats can be traced back to corrosion in the wire where it goes into the terminal lug. Three rally simple tests to try if you don't have a meter handy - 1) heat - does the joint get hot when you try to operate the equipment, 2) Bend - does the wire feel too 'floppy' where it goes into the terminal lug, 3) tug - does the wire pull out when you tug it away from the lug.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MacSkipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2018 at 4:11pm
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Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

Thanks for the followup report. I spent 10 mins yesterday writing you some extra diagnostic ideas but the damn system didn't post due to the dodgy internet I was using and I was too busy to rewrite it. One of the first things on the list was to try and bend the earth wire at the crimp edge and give it a decent tug. A huge % of electrical issues on boats can be traced back to corrosion in the wire where it goes into the terminal lug. Three rally simple tests to try if you don't have a meter handy - 1) heat - does the joint get hot when you try to operate the equipment, 2) Bend - does the wire feel too 'floppy' where it goes into the terminal lug, 3) tug - does the wire pull out when you tug it away from the lug.
Yep if a wire is going to break will do so at lug - often covered in heat shrink so you cant see it as well!
Good fishing trip nothing breaks, great trip catch fish.
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