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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote John H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 10:27pm
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Yeah looks bad. But the 1996 survey was the first one that was national. It had some problems with smaller Fisheries. The 2000 and 2001 national surveys used a different method and got really high estimates for just about everything. So we don't use those now.
Then they went to aerial counts and boat ramp interviews which were rubbish for potting and diving. Next CRA 2 harvest surveys were in 2010 to 2012 and those were pretty good. They came up with about 40 tonne but stock was well on the way down by then.
Next year we will have a new harvest estimate and that will be interesting.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 10:34pm
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Glad you are dealing with these guys John. I would just end up in fights trying to find out why their logic is so non-existent. Does anyone ever get held to account for trashing our fish stocks when they finally have to own up to the facts once the stocks are so low that they can't pretend otherwise anymore?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote LegaSea Community Builder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 8:12am
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When it starts to crash, that's when the spin comes out 'black market is a huge problem' 'we don't know what recs take' 'there's natural cycles that effect the catch rate'. Trying to get the former minister(s) to take a precautionary approach was like trying to get blood out of a stone. Understandably, when someone's livelihood is on the line, they will fight tooth and nail to keep paying their bills, that's why the minister must regulate the industry, not work with industry to extract 'just a little bit more'.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote v8-coupe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 12:19pm
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Originally posted by LegaSea Community Builder LegaSea Community Builder wrote:

When it starts to crash, that's when the spin comes out 'black market is a huge problem' 'we don't know what recs take' 'there's natural cycles that effect the catch rate'. Trying to get the former minister(s) to take a precautionary approach was like trying to get blood out of a stone. Understandably, when someone's livelihood is on the line, they will fight tooth and nail to keep paying their bills, that's why the minister must regulate the industry, not work with industry to extract 'just a little bit more'.

Should never have made quota a tradable commodity.
Quota should have been held by Government for the people of NZ then leased out to generate a return.
Perhaps if it was the physical commercial fisher that reaped the rewards instead of some shiny seat polisher or overseas investor demanding a certain ROI things may be a lot different.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2018 at 1:08pm
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Should never have made quota a tradable commodity.
Quota should have been held by Government for the people of NZ then leased out to generate a return.

 Agree but lets not forget about those times.
 We had just come out of the most government controlled  extreme left wing Muldoon National government that has left the country bankrupt.

 The new Labour government under Rogernomics based on the international trend of Thatcherism/ Reganism, all about "the economic markets will determine the best for everyone and every thing" extreme right wing
So everything gets sold off, remove all subisties....

About that time international laws changed so our 12 mile economic zone went out to 200 miles

 Result leaves natural resources , like fisheries, timber , forests etc open to the "fix all" market pressures.
 As time goes on a teacher no longer earns around 75% of a MPs salary.. the majority of the NZ wage/ salaries moved from the middle incpme to the top 5 or 10% of the population, far more heads off shore....
Then move on  a decade or so, we have to bring in things like rent and income subsidies.. even nor what was the mid to low middle come earner in previous decades..
We have an unemployment in under fit 25 yr olds, lot of that is outside cities,  that is around the same number as the number temp workers we import to pick our fruit milk our cows...
 Then top THAT off the tax these ppl pay is damn near the same cost that we pay for locals not to work.

I didnt mean any disrespect there V8...
But that quota was sold off yes in retropect BIG mistake.. but damn its just a very small part after 3 decades or so thatcherism, Reganisim, Rogarnomics extremist  "the market pressure will fix everything" BS all clothed over the self righteous philosophy of taking personal responsibility

The issue now.. be it climate change, re adjusting incomes.. in particular to top end the middle/ bottom end  incomes , so everyone doesnt need to be taxed and redistributed in wage and rent subsidies..
 And things like the market driven  fish quota system, put the resource and citizen access to the top priority in management.

To do that we need pollies.. leader who have the balls.. like King, Sedden, Kirk, Lange.. and even muldoon .. some of these went in the wrong direction.. but had the balls to do so.
 If not.., history shows us that there WILL be a point that the citizens will force the priority to be the people not the dollar, and all hell breaks loose.. economically ( socially it already would have.)
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote v8-coupe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2018 at 12:29pm
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Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:


Should never have made quota a tradable commodity.
Quota should have been held by Government for the people of NZ then leased out to generate a return.

 Agree but lets not forget about those times.
 We had just come out of the most government controlled  extreme left wing Muldoon National government that has left the country bankrupt.

 The new Labour government under Rogernomics based on the international trend of Thatcherism/ Reganism, all about "the economic markets will determine the best for everyone and every thing" extreme right wing
So everything gets sold off, remove all subisties....

About that time international laws changed so our 12 mile economic zone went out to 200 miles

 Result leaves natural resources , like fisheries, timber , forests etc open to the "fix all" market pressures.
 As time goes on a teacher no longer earns around 75% of a MPs salary.. the majority of the NZ wage/ salaries moved from the middle incpme to the top 5 or 10% of the population, far more heads off shore....
Then move on  a decade or so, we have to bring in things like rent and income subsidies.. even nor what was the mid to low middle come earner in previous decades..
We have an unemployment in under fit 25 yr olds, lot of that is outside cities,  that is around the same number as the number temp workers we import to pick our fruit milk our cows...
 Then top THAT off the tax these ppl pay is damn near the same cost that we pay for locals not to work.

I didnt mean any disrespect there V8...
But that quota was sold off yes in retropect BIG mistake.. but damn its just a very small part after 3 decades or so thatcherism, Reganisim, Rogarnomics extremist  "the market pressure will fix everything" BS all clothed over the self righteous philosophy of taking personal responsibility

The issue now.. be it climate change, re adjusting incomes.. in particular to top end the middle/ bottom end  incomes , so everyone doesnt need to be taxed and redistributed in wage and rent subsidies..
 And things like the market driven  fish quota system, put the resource and citizen access to the top priority in management.

To do that we need pollies.. leader who have the balls.. like King, Sedden, Kirk, Lange.. and even muldoon .. some of these went in the wrong direction.. but had the balls to do so.
 If not.., history shows us that there WILL be a point that the citizens will force the priority to be the people not the dollar, and all hell breaks loose.. economically ( socially it already would have.)


No disrespect taken or even considered. I agree 100% with your statements/sentiments.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote John H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 8:49am
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Cameras on boats - a vital step forward


Recreational fishing group LegaSea is calling on Minister of Fisheries Stuart Nash to stand firm against industry pressure to dump the introduction of cameras and electronic monitoring on commercial fishing boats.

LegaSea is challenging industry claims that it is engaging in best practice fishing endeavours, and that cameras and other forms of monitoring are not required.

Dave Turner, director of Fisheries Management at the Ministry for Primary Industries has been quoted saying,"We estimate that if we found the golden bullet to stop discarding, we would probably put over half of the inshore fleet out of business overnight..." This admission alone should be truth enough to continue with the surveillance cameras.  

”Fisheries Management can't quantify the tonnages involved but we suspect they are significant to the point that they are impacting on stocks,” said Turner.

When historical claims of dumping against the industry were investigated in 2013 MPI officials countered by announcing plans for a new electronic monitoring package to solve these systemic sins. Now it seems we are to forego even this.

While many boats are run professionally there are fishers who operate illegally. They are difficult to catch because offending is easily hidden far out at sea. 

LegaSea spokesman Scott Macindoe says, "These fishers give the industry a bad name but worse still, they give the fishery a hiding. This has to stop. The public are sick of it, the stocks can’t sustain this kind of abuse and unless these operators are exposed or forced to change their ways, everyone including our kids will lose”.

“We know that more seabirds are killed on boats with cameras than are reported killed on boats without direct observers in place. We know from the ‘Sea Around Us’ research that the industry dumps more fish than it lands. We know that the industry was happy to have cameras when they were run by its own privately-held company, and we know that the industry lost the footage recorded in the early trials. Cameras are the least we can do to protect our fisheries, our dolphins and our seabirds, and we strongly urge the Minister to make the right decision here.”

“The industry needs reform. We’ve called for a Commission of Inquiry into the way our fisheries are managed and we need to know what is going on aboard these vessels. After all, our fisheries are a public resource and as such we all have kaitiakitanga obligations to fulfill. 

“Recently we applauded the Minister for rejecting the industry call for camera footage to be withheld from public scrutiny. Now sir, please put our fisheries first and follow through with both the implementation of the electronic monitoring package as well as a full and proper inquiry into the way our fisheries are being managed” 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Foxtrot Oscar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 9:07am
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Hear Hear!!
There was a supportive statement from Fish & Game on Radio Live news this morning also.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 10:00am
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Dave Turner quoted as saying. " We estimate that if we found the golden bullet to stop discarding we would probably put half the inshore  fleet out of business overnight"
What is that vague statement trying to say.

On the other hand if  they dont find that golden bullet then half the inshore fleet will be out of business regardless.

The culture of waste is so deeply established they dont really know what to do.
And when stocks do really become stretched it is likely the ethical commercial operators will be  worst effected while the bulk harvesters will have the edge.
Waste is created by demand. It is onshore retailers and wholesalers that create that demand, in a similar way that export demands quality longline fish. One example. Recently spoke to the manager of the seafood section in one of our major supermarket chains. I asked if their snapper was trawled or longlined. The reply was trawled and as close to auckland as possible. All about cost. Longline was too expensive and would effect their bottom line..
So this pressure from retail for trawled fish is very much part of and promotion of waste inshore.
So when you see Snapper fillets on special ,one thing not advertised to the consumer is the cost to the fishery in terms of potential waste at sea. Maybe the consumer needs to know this.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (3) Likes(3)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 10:05am
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Breaking News - ADALT(Association of Dairy And Liquor store Thieves) is lobbying the government to stop the deployment of security cameras in dairys and liquor stores because they have assured the public that they don't really rob dairys and liquor stores. They say that the cameras are an invasion of their privacy. Apparently all the supposed robberies are just a conspiracy by ADALC (Association of Dairy And Liquor store Customers) to make ADALT look bad.
Our government (who like to consider themselves ADULT) are apparently seriously considering this option).
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote LegaSea Community Builder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 10:07am
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If the fish started beating up fishermen and robbing boats and sabotaging nets those cameras would be up in double quick time....
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 10:30am
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As someone already mentioned - if they hate them that bad you have to assume that they will be good for the fishery. 
I guessing that the $millions the comms have already spent (incl political 'donations') trying to avoid them is more than the cost of deployment. That has to tell you something!! The scary thing though is that unlike the fishing public, our new minister of fisheries seems to think that the industry is a bunch of saints who couldn't possibly try to mislead him. Where the hell are all these supposedly eco/fish friendly nets etc that keep getting referred to? They have been quoted for years as the reason why the comms won't need any special monitoring but nothing ever happens.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote John H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 10:56am
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Fish freindly nets... I will start using that oxymoron
 
The NIWA report on whether FFNs are more friendly to fish than 125mm codend or not is still in draft form.  Widespead intoduction requires a regulation change.
After soaking up most of $26 million of public money on developing FFN I expect there will be something approved.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote LegaSea Community Builder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 10:59am
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Dave beat me to it - companies will take the cheaper option every time - if the cheaper option is huge donations to political parties, expensive PR campaigns, owning the surveillance company, etc etc etc then the cost of fixing it is massive. Which also implies the amount of waste and law breaking is also huge.
I think the CRA2 decision from the Minister will tell us if he will be part of the solution or part of the problem. 
Re cameras- It was said scrapping maybe an option, would be very keen to know what the solution would be instead of cameras? Observers on every boat? A land all policy? What's it going to take?
John H - would be awesome to see something like that come through and show some decent level of effectiveness. 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 12:58pm
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Whilst I am all for additional enforcement (cameras, observers etc) I don't think this should be the main focus of sorting out our fisheries management and shouldn't be allowed to become the major discussion point. 
To me the main issue with our 'shared' fisheries (which is what I really care about most) is the reasons why some comm fisherman will do things that they know are damaging the long term sustainability of our fisheries. It isn't in their interests anymore than it is in ours, so why does it happen? 
From the various bits of info I have heard/seen it seems that one big issue could be that our 'self employed contract fishermen' who fish a lot of our shared species are screwed down really tight by the quota owners. So some guy doing nothing (and I know a few of them personally) take a significant cut of the value chain and leave the guy doing all the work and taking all the risk just enough to let them survive. 
There is a very strong principle that is core to much good business management. It says that the profits must follow the risk. In other words the riskiest parts of the value chain should make the highest margins. It is such an accepted business principle that foreign businesses operating in NZ can use this to legally export significant parts of their pre-tax profits back to their head office country if the main risk (say R&D) is done there. 
In our QMS model the main profitability is in the wrong parts of the value chain. The guy taking most of the risk operates on the smallest margins. They are also unfortunately the guys who make day to day decisions that impact our fishery. End result is that the decisions are driven by short term focus on profits/survival rather than long term focus on the fishery. Couple this with the generic comms  "I need to catch them before someone else does" attitude to shared fisheries and we end up with the problems we have. We could achieve a lot just by fixing the QMS. Cameras etc are more like the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. Still, better to have the ambulance there until we can make the cliff safer.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 7:02pm
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And there lies the problem,New minister but same old  hands in the department,Dave Turner!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote LegaSea Community Builder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2018 at 12:43pm
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A study in Australia showed that commercial fishing operators were suddenly a lot more honest after cameras were installed...

http://https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/350541/fishing-boat-cameras-people-were-suddenly-a-lot-more-honest

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2018 at 2:16pm
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So according to the CEO of the comm group Fisheries Inshore NZ in this article it is going to cost the best part of $200k per boat to put cameras on them????? Some of the boats possibly aren't worth that much themselves. No wonder they wanted to set up their own technology company to supply the cameras etc. I figure there are some huge margins to be made with those sort of numbers. 
Cost me around $500 and a days work to put 4 cameras around my house. I guess if you go for the super duper all weather cameras and allow for the installation and a radio based data link you could probably find $20k if you tried really hard. Then allow a couple of guys for a week to install you might find another $10k if you don't mind being ripped off.  So where does the ~$200k per boat come from?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote v8-coupe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2018 at 2:52pm
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Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

So according to the CEO of the comm group Fisheries Inshore NZ in this article it is going to cost the best part of $200k per boat to put cameras on them????? Some of the boats possibly aren't worth that much themselves. No wonder they wanted to set up their own technology company to supply the cameras etc. I figure there are some huge margins to be made with those sort of numbers. 
Cost me around $500 and a days work to put 4 cameras around my house. I guess if you go for the super duper all weather cameras and allow for the installation and a radio based data link you could probably find $20k if you tried really hard. Then allow a couple of guys for a week to install you might find another $10k if you don't mind being ripped off.  So where does the ~$200k per boat come from?


Deliberate exaggeration to generate sympathy from the minister and public?
Perhaps Legasea could petition the industry to release a breakdown of the 200k per boat cost.
All of a sudden it would become "commercially sensitive" and the request would be denied.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2018 at 3:08pm
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We spent over $20k in time and costs to transition our charter fleet into MOSS. The government said 'do it' and we didn't get a choice so had to suck up the cost. There is no associated improvement in safety (as the stats will probably show when MNZ finally have to release them). So lot's of $'s for no return just because it 'suited' some government agenda.
 Then they said you need liquor licences for your boats and your crew need to be trained bar managers. So now we have to have the same licence & staff obligations as your local pub so our guests can BYO a couple of beers when fishing. More $1000's spent (each year now for annual renewals as well) because the government (Police in this case) thought that it would make their life a bit easier. No logic in what was done once you look into it, but again we suck up $1000's because we are told that is the rule now. More $1000's for no result because it suits someones agenda.
The comms however, where there is good overseas evidence that cameras do work, are saying that they shouldn't have to pay to install the cameras that will prevent them from criminal activities. Then the government are saying that they might just roll over and change the rules to suit the comms. Guess who makes the biggest campaign contributions? 
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