Surf Casting for Distance Line problems-shock lead

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    Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 10:16am
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Not wanting to start a war on the merit of mono versus Braid. But i am wondering if others may have some ideas. i currently use 30lb .50mm diameter mono for my main line and a 50lb shock leader as i use 5 to 6 ounce sinkers. i find even with the best and smallest of knots joining the shock leader to my main line it still clunks through the guides and sometimes even jams in the spool. i have tried various knots and always trim tags as small as possible. i am wondering if i could just use say 50lb as my main line and not have a shock leader? would a 50lb mono main line effect the distance of the cast much? or do others think i should invest in say a 60lb or 80lb thin diameter braid line and have that as the main line and again no shock leader? any ideas appreciated. I should also Mention i fish off a cliff which is about 8 meters straight up, so i have to pull a fish straight out of the water i have had 20lb line break doing this. the reason i use a 50lb shock leader is that i like to do the off the ground cast using a 5 to 6 ounce sinker. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote one leg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 10:31am
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An easy way may be to change the guilds on the rod if your finding they are hanging up the line on casting .or as you say change to 50lb line  but this will affect the distance for sure .Braid will solve that prob but will require gloves to stop the loss of fingers at the casting stage ,an another way is to glue join the leader to main there is a product out there(P-line glue ) may help you ..my thoughts ..
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote ReelAppealLures Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 11:25am
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Hey artist, 30lb main line is going to seriously hurt your distance. Alot of guys including myself use 5.5kg or 6kg main line for the extra bit of distance it gives. As for the braided main line,  can your rod fish braid? Guides, action etc... 30lb mono to 50lb mono is quite a large knot, have you tried a tapered shock leader? Also because you fish from such a high platform your length of shock leader must be quite long that will affect distance also, Is it quite rocky around your possie? Braid main line may get cut on these rocks... If it is not too rocky you could always try 6kg main line with a 50lb braid shock leader both are around .30mm so it is a super compact knot...If you try a braid shock leader crank the drag up solid and don't have the braid in the crook of your finger when casting, some guys moan about braid cutting their finger but these are the main causes if the spool slips or the braid is in the crook of your finger... as long as there is a couple of wraps on the reel and enough length in the braid leader to reach the water it should be O.K... the leader will be long but it won't cut down the distance like 50lb mono leader that long.
Good luckSmile
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rock Fish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 11:57am
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5 or 6 ounce sinker of an 8 meter cliff? Where are you fishing and I'm assuming at that height there must alot of deep water around so would big casts really be needed?
Nothing makes a fish bigger than almost being caught.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Ahab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 12:41pm
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As Oneleg mentioned, you can glue the join between the lines- I think there's a review in the Nov NZ Fishing News about a new product for just this purpose. It involves a sleeve and an epoxy, and I think the epoxy draws the sleeve tight around the two ends of line. I think it would be interesting to experiment with supaglue on its own, too.

Another option for hauling fish up the cliff is a type of spring-loaded three-hook jag, which is popular in Aus. It's attached to a rope which slides down your line, and when it meets something solid (ie a fish), the hooks snap closed and you can haul up your catch.
 
There's probably an Aussie digger or two on this site who can point you in the right direction. I met a bloke called Peter at the walkabout casual comp who'd done a heap of cliff fishing in WA and NSW, including helium ballooning for wahoo. I reckon he'd definitely have some advice for you about getting your fish from the sea into your esky.
 
Which part of the country are you fishing in, mate? Don't want you to give away your spotx, just curious about region. I'm guessing West Coast, prob Taranaki if NI.
 
 I feel your pain with joining knots going through the guides. I've had my share of rod-tip bustoffs as the knot jams somewhere along the line. It's always amazing how far your 6oz sandgrabber goes when it's not encumbered by your mainline- I wouldn't be at all suprised if I put a ding in a jumbo jet one of these days...
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Michael Jenkins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 12:45pm
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drop your mainline weight as low as possible for the terain, ie if no snags, 10-15lb and make sure the spool is a s full as possible, then run an extra long 50lb braid shock leader, long enough so you've got a few wraps on the spool before hauling the fish up the cliff-face then get som good finger protection.
 
As for finger protection; I've found the break-away casting cannon to be the best tool for the job, they're a little pricey, but after spending a year fiddling about with all sorts of gloves, finger gaurds, bike inner tubes, tapes etc and eventually destroying all of them 1/2 way threw a day and slicing the skin off of my finger many times (especially at the end of the day once the skin softens from being wet) I think they're totally worth it.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Ahab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 1:44pm
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http://www.campbellsprotackle.com/store/product.asp?ID=1349
This is the kind of cliff gaff I had in mind. Not spring loaded at all, just flailing meathooks. Should do you proud.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote LBGer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 1:52pm
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My 2cents - order some Jerry Brown 60lb hollow braid (off the net from USA), thread the 30lb into it and use the 60lb braid for your shock leader. You may need a carpet needle to thread through first so that it is easier to thread. WHip finish where the braid slides over the mono wih 20lb braid. Ths will be an almost knotless join and wont get stuck in the guides..... 
A king on the bricks is worth 5 in a boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kiwicaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 3:24pm
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Sounds like you need to buy some tapered shockleaders
A recent survey has revealed that only one in seven dwarfs are happy.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pure--lure Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 3:44pm
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6-8kg joined with some knot JK posted awhile ago PR knot?, anyways 6-8kg mainline to a 24kg shock leader to a 60 lb supple trace the length of braid for me and most west coast surf fisho is the lenth of your rod and 3 winds of the reel, I usually fish Yoke and Pulley rigs
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote xsspeed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 4:14pm
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I have 12lb - tapered shock leader  (15-60lb from memory - slim beauty knot) - pulley/bait clip rig
 
I don't think I have an additional trace in there besides the pulley rig.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote mouthu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 5:21pm
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Originally posted by Yeahnah Yeahnah wrote:

Sounds like you need to buy some tapered shockleaders
 
pretty much what i was going to say once i got to the bottom after reading all the other comments.
 
6 to 8kg main line with a tapered leader (mine wraps around the spool about 8 or 9 times and i still have enough out the end for a decent cast) joined with back to back uni knots and no more than a 5oz sinker is plenty.
Yes it was me, I screwed it up for everyone.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote hEUgE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 5:39pm
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I went that way, bust offs at the join, etc etc. I went for 50lb braid/ no shock leader and it worked for me, mostly fishing off the beach. I've been experimenting with shock leaders again and are comfortable with the slim beauty and a drop of supa glue. It still rattles up the guides but if you use a good long shock leader it doesn't seem to be as bad as when the leader gets a bit shorter. It's cool to experiment as well, if you go down the path of using braid with no shock leader it does begin to weaken on the area around the top of the rod at launch, keep an eye on it during the long sessions, starts to fray, cut it off.
Casting aid? I did a couple of years good surfcasting without a casting aid and didn't have any problems with cuts on my fingers but there again I always started a session fishing in close before heading for the horizon. So it may help to start slow with the casting before punching it out wider. I used to punch it out as hard as I could without an aid with no issues. I have a casting aid now and I think they're pretty positive for your confidence even if you don't have any issues anyway.
I'm ready to drop back from the heavy stuff and was thinking of 20lb braid with a 50lb or heavier braid shockleader. The other thing is how the line you're using feels the waves and current because you've got a more positive feel to your sinker and bait you tend to 'feel' the waves and current a bit more, it takes a bit of getting use to but the rod tip can jump about a bit, if you're using a sand spike rod holder, use some pvc pipe to extend the length (but not so much that the pipe will bear the brunt of any rays/sharks that come along, it may bend or break) and get your line a bit steeper off the water.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kiwicaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2010 at 6:26pm
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When you combine a fixed spool with a biggish knot it almost always equals a rattle and bang when it shoots down the guides.
A tapered leader helps as the knot is a lot smaller but if you want to keep using a level shockleader a smaller knot such as this one  HERE  works well.


A recent survey has revealed that only one in seven dwarfs are happy.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote artist_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 10:45am
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Thanks for all the helpful advise, I will need to have a think Now as reading through there is a number of good  options. I am in the Taranaki and fish at patea Hawera and sometimes i go through to Wanganui of the mole. I find Google Earth is good for looking at points of land/rocks that stick out. as said though i use 5 - 6ounce sinkers as lots of rips along the Naki coastSmile
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote scattorshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2010 at 11:28pm
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Great Vid, will use this knot from now on me thinks Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote z_si Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2010 at 12:22am
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I fish 0.50 mainline and 60lb - 100lb shockleaders depending on what I'm fishing for. I think the 60lb is around 0.70 diameter and I hardly hear a sound when it goes through the guides even on rods with small guides. If you're using 80 - 100lb though you can start having problems unless you ugrade the guides so the smallest is size 16 otherwise down to size 12 should be fine. The knot I use is a back to back centauri knot I think it's called.

Has someone like yeahnah actually tested casting with say 0.50mm mainline and 0.40 or 0.30 and actually measure the difference in the casts. Thinner mainline obviously gives you an advantage but I don't know how much of one, some people still cast over 150 meters with 0.50 and even 0.55 mainline with a decent sized sinker.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote artist_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2010 at 10:57am
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Actually i am totally lost looking at the different brands and diameter lines now lol. To improve the cast if i drop down to 20lb nylon mainline the thinnest diameter i can find is around .30mm . Braid at 40lb is still the same .30mm diameter would't it b better to get the braid at 40lb for same diameter as 20lb nylon?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote NZDiggerDog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2010 at 11:39am
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artist_nz seriously 8 kg mono mainline is all you need with a strike leader  2x length of your rod 15 / 25 kg experiment with knots or try a tool called Whip It, (it twists the two lines together). Also are you using a longcast reel?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote artist_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2010 at 12:09pm
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NZDiggerDog ok so thats 17lb mono main line, any suggestion for brand of line? some of the brands seem to be a lot thicker diameter for less breaking strain. the whip it sounds interesting will look into it Wink
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