Fg Verses Pr knots (Braid to Mono Leader)

Page  <1 234
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote laidbackdood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 3:33am
laidbackdood View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 4998
Very technical answer there starnsy.......
I have a theory and its pure speculation.......not based on facts......but hey if anyone can disprove it....go for it......
Look at the pic below.......the knot on the left represents a PR knot under a microscope(just the PR coils but would have the half hitches as well).........the one on the right represents a PR knot(coils) covered with UV Knot sense......
I believe its the ridges of the coils of the PR knot itself......that cause a trail as its going through the water.......when covered with UV Knot sense......It becomes a more streamlined knot.......more like a torpedo.........when the knot is longer it exasperates the trail.....
Any smart person who can prove or disprove my theory?

Once the idiots turn up..Im outta here...No time for Drama Queens.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Garry 23041 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 7:33am
Garry 23041 View Drop Down
Platinum
Platinum


Joined: 19 May 2007
Location: Mangonui
Status: Offline
Points: 2231
I always tie an FG knot.
I don't need any gear and it works well for my small brain.
I can throw the rod in the holder in adverse conditons and get a good knot fairly fast.
The thing I like best though is the AG chain for the terminal end.
Has abraision resistance in terms of rocks and sharp teeth and is a strong strong knot that is so easy to tie.
In terms of bubbles and Couta I tend to think if they are around your toast anyway just move on or spend money depending on your mood.
I just had an epic trip with big snaps on softies, some nice crays and a session on kings around 25kgs.
Sometimes gear breaks no matter what you do.
I lost a big fish under the boat because the loop at the assist hook let go, poor manufacture I guess.....
I was going to release it anyway I just wanted my jig back.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 8:04am
Steps View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium


Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Franklin
Status: Offline
Points: 12849
See the logic in that.. BUT lets consider the volume of air trapped...the result would be microscopic  and for a very short period, and not enough to effect anything.. the bubbles so tiny.
 And if the issue was cavitation, to form the friction has to be enough to boil the water to form a vapor trail... as with a prop.
And if apply the prop case to that, there is enough heat to melt the molecular metal  on the surface of the prop, eventually pitting it....so what would that heat do to the knot?  or the line materials?

 IF there where bubbles they would be so little so damn microscopic small for a ve short period of time.
 Issue is a non issue I recon.

 And if still worried use a FG...l
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Titahi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 2:12pm
Titahi View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Location: Mount sinai
Status: Offline
Points: 3614
Steps  requiring water boiling to  produce cavitation is a falicy. Fsh are able to generate enough speed to develop bubbles, again its about pressure differentials and the microscopic bubbles that exist in water.

From wikipedia 
"Just as cavitation bubbles form on a fast-spinning boat propeller, they may also form on the tails and fins of aquatic animals. The effects of cavitation are especially important near the surface of the ocean, where the ambient water pressure is relatively low and cavitation is more likely to occur"

Inertial cavitation was first studied by Lord Rayleigh in the late 19th century, when he considered the collapse of a spherical void within a liquid.[1] When a volume of liquid is subjected to a sufficiently low pressure, it may rupture and form a cavity.


The pressure differential is the key.

Here is a great example

"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote waynorth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 3:03pm
waynorth View Drop Down
Platinum
Platinum
Avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Location: Kerikeri
Status: Offline
Points: 1456
Getting a bit technical now, but 'boiling' is simply water turning from a liquid into a gas - water vapour. That's what the bubbles are in your kettle - not air. Increase the pressure - in a pressure cooker for example - and the water won't boil until the temperature is much higher, so your food will cook more quickly. Lower the pressure, and it will 'boil' at a lower temperature - about 70C on top of Mount Everest. 

Cavitation is when the pressure momentarily drops low enough for the water to briefly vapourise, often in a very tiny area, before the surrounding pressure collapses the bubble. The impact of the collapsing bubbles can be pretty severe and can cause mechanical damage to something like a propellor - sometimes called cavitation corrosion.

I wasn't aware a fish could cause cavitation from it's fins, but if so, a bulky knot probably could too. I imagine it would only occur fairly near the surface - same as propellor cavitation. At any depth the increase in water pressure would quickly raise the boiling point too high.

A separate issue is a knot, swivel, or game lure getting a gulp of air on the surface, and emitting an underwater bubble trail - probably more an issue for topwater lures than deeper water jigging. 

Back to the thread though - FG knot for me every time, from 4kg to 37kg. No tools, no broken teeth, takes maybe a minute to tie at home or at sea, runs through the guides without catching, and never fails, although I did have a few of the finishing half-hitches come undone until I started using a Rizzuto finish. Knot Sense would probably sort that issue too.
treat fish like fish
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote laidbackdood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 6:40pm
laidbackdood View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 4998
REF Couda.....I wonder if a diver has actually witnessed this so called bubble trail ?..........is it an issue on the drop when line speed is at its highest or during the jigging retrieve?
people......when has this happened to you most often?........while jigging or the drop?........
The bulky part on the line where knot meets mono.....might even look like a slim fish to a couda.......who knows......but there is a bloody big fish further down hahaha.....It needs to be witnessed and that aint easy........but without pure facts......I will stick to a shorter PR and coat it with UV knot sense..........the test would be if people around you are getting their knots hit by couda.........send one down with UV Knot sense on it and see if you are immune !LOL............then let us all know ...so we can save our jigs and their impact on the environmentWink
Once the idiots turn up..Im outta here...No time for Drama Queens.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote laidbackdood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 6:49pm
laidbackdood View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 4998
With my diagram above......the knot on the left.......I will draw another analogy.......
when swimming freestyle and you need to take a breath......if you turn your head back.....there is always a pocket of air there because your head creates a bit of a break........there is no need to lift your head out of the water because that pocket is always there.........i think those ridges act a bit like that.......the knot is not steamlined...smooth like a torpedo for less resistance.......the ridges create some resistance and the pockets are always there..........only way would be to test one long pr against a long PR coated with knot sense(smooth as) and watch.
Once the idiots turn up..Im outta here...No time for Drama Queens.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 9:42am
Steps View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium


Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Franklin
Status: Offline
Points: 12849
Thankyou Waynorth
  Yep Basic high school physics.... loooong time back  what was it ????  ( t1x p1)/ V1=(t2xp2)/V2 basic formula.. Newton Kelvin Boyle Pascal law cant rem which one it was now....Boyle?

but 'boiling' is simply water turning from a liquid into a gas - water vapour. ......Cavitation is when the pressure momentarily drops low enough for the water to briefly vapourise,         The impact of the collapsing bubbles can be pretty severe and can cause mechanical damage to something like a propeller - sometimes called cavitation corrosion.



Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote fish i Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 8:18pm
fish i View Drop Down
Platinum
Platinum
Avatar

Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Location: ngahinemotu
Status: Offline
Points: 1765
It's actually real simple. No need for a scientific explanation here starship enterprise.

Dive down 20m. Wave your arm around. No bubbles. Kick your fins. Hmmm no bubbles. Get someone to drop a jig and crank it up. No bubbles

The snakes/bubble theory was spouted about a decade ago by someone on this very forum who really didn't think about what they were saying. Now there are still people believing it, without thinking for them selves. My neighbour still thinks the earth is flat. It's quite entertaining listening to his explanations and answers to my questions. Perhaps one to many St Pedro's special teas. 

My surfboard fins form cavitation and a mean bubble off the trailing edge. Especially when not sanded blunt. They are near the surface. Air is near the surface. 

From Dr Titahi's post "The effects of cavitation are especially important near the surface of the ocean, where the ambient water pressure is relatively low and cavitation is more likely to occur""

And Mike, up there for thinking, down there for dancing +) Get out there guys. Dose of sunshine and saltwater needed here. 

Oh and Smudge, looked up the definition of trawling troll. Think you may need some reflection on time on here vs time on the brine. Gotta love what you do I guess. Lter


6th place in the inaugural Te Kauwhata Regionals paddle crab division
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote fish i Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 8:28pm
fish i View Drop Down
Platinum
Platinum
Avatar

Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Location: ngahinemotu
Status: Offline
Points: 1765
Originally posted by laidbackdood laidbackdood wrote:

With my diagram above......the knot on the left.......I will draw another analogy.......
when swimming freestyle and you need to take a breath......if you turn your head back.....there is always a pocket of air there because your head creates a bit of a break........there is no need to lift your head out of the water because that pocket is always there.........i think those ridges act a bit like that.......the knot is not steamlined...smooth like a torpedo for less resistance.......the ridges create some resistance and the pockets are always there..........only way would be to test one long pr against a long PR coated with knot sense(smooth as) and watch.

I think for all of us, you should test this swimming theory out under water.
6th place in the inaugural Te Kauwhata Regionals paddle crab division
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote waynorth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 9:43pm
waynorth View Drop Down
Platinum
Platinum
Avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Location: Kerikeri
Status: Offline
Points: 1456
Originally posted by fish i fish i wrote:

It's actually real simple.

No, it isn't. Your post was though.

No need for a scientific explanation here starship enterprise.

Some people actually want to learn, some even want to understand, and some can't do either, so mock both.  

Dive down 20m. Wave your arm around. No bubbles. Kick your fins. Hmmm no bubbles. Get someone to drop a jig and crank it up. No bubbles

Correct, and none would be expected. Your point is ?

The snakes/bubble theory was spouted about a decade ago by someone on this very forum who really didn't think about what they were saying. 

Impressive memory. You know they didn't think about it - how ? 

Now there are still people believing it, without thinking for them selves. 

People are discussing it, and thinking about the different responses. Like adults. 

My neighbour still thinks the earth is flat. It's quite entertaining listening to his explanations and answers to my questions. Perhaps one to many St Pedro's special teas. 

Run the subject of cavitation or PR/FG knots past him - that's what this thread is about. 

My surfboard fins form cavitation...

No they don't. 

 ...and a mean bubble off the trailing edge.

Due to bubble entrapment similar to the venturi effect.

 Especially when not sanded blunt. 

Ever wondered why ? 

They are near the surface. Air is near the surface. 

Well spotted. Actually, air is on the surface. Everywhere. Fortunately.

From Dr Titahi's post "The effects of cavitation are especially important near the surface of the ocean, where the ambient water pressure is relatively low and cavitation is more likely to occur""

Now you're a Doctor Jason I'd go for a pay rise. Tell them Fish-i OK'ed it.

And Mike, up there for thinking, down there for dancing +) 

Mike knows. Let me rephrase that. MIKE knows.

Get out there guys.

Good advice

Dose of sunshine and saltwater needed here. 

Helps the fishing, and the thinking, and the dancing.

Oh and Smudge, looked up the definition of trawling troll. 

I tried too as well. Even Google was confused. Scary thought though - a troll who trawls. 

Think you may need some reflection on time on here vs time on the brine. 

I'm sure Smudge will be learning a great deal from this thread. If it wasn't for cavitation, anyone could catch gurnard.

Gotta love what you do I guess. Lter

You bet. Cya.

treat fish like fish
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 12:13am
smudge View Drop Down
Moderator - Ninja
Moderator - Ninja
Avatar

Joined: 17 Jul 2002
Location: Te Toro
Status: Offline
Points: 32161
Originally posted by fish i fish i wrote:


Oh and Smudge, looked up the definition of trawling troll. Think you may need some reflection on time on here vs time on the brine. Gotta love what you do I guess. Lter



Thanks for the life advice Fish i. I wish I was more like you.  Entertaining post though.Big smile
Best gurnard fisherman in my street
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote laidbackdood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 1:13am
laidbackdood View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 4998
Originally posted by fish i fish i wrote:

Originally posted by laidbackdood laidbackdood wrote:

With my diagram above......the knot on the left.......I will draw another analogy.......
when swimming freestyle and you need to take a breath......if you turn your head back.....there is always a pocket of air there because your head creates a bit of a break........there is no need to lift your head out of the water because that pocket is always there.........i think those ridges act a bit like that.......the knot is not steamlined...smooth like a torpedo for less resistance.......the ridges create some resistance and the pockets are always there..........only way would be to test one long pr against a long PR coated with knot sense(smooth as) and watch.

I think for all of us, you should test this swimming theory out under water.
Thats impossible because there would not be a pocket of air due to the break(wave)if i was under the surface......But you are welcome to don your togs and dive down......hold your breathe and observe both knots in motion........The apoxia that would more than likely ensue.....Might do you some good.LOL.......maybe you could  actually contribute something to these discussions......rather than looking down your nose at othersWacko
Once the idiots turn up..Im outta here...No time for Drama Queens.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote home bouy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 8:12am
home bouy View Drop Down
Silver
Silver


Joined: 14 Mar 2013
Location: tauranga
Status: Offline
Points: 466
to be honest if you guys are loosing that much gear from cuta biting off the pr knot you are fishing in the wrong spot. we pull pin when cuta start hitting the jigs let alone the bloody knots
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Titahi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 12:05pm
Titahi View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Location: Mount sinai
Status: Offline
Points: 3614
Waynorth, the quotation marks denote its not my statement, however I should have referrenced it better, its from here....


my station in life is set :(  No chance of becoming a Dr
"I love standing by the ocean and just knowing what its for"
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote hookerpuka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 5:09pm
hookerpuka View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 3439
Gesh, some people just don't like discussion eh. 
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 5:53pm
Steps View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium


Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Franklin
Status: Offline
Points: 12849
Yep some simply like to point out an error in a polite manner Tongue
 hey happened to me this morning in a post.. and appreciated the correction to boot

 A small handful of super perfect walk on water...prefer hammering home a mistake or error in a person manner. ( thump to the forehead on that one)   ..and often troll (theres that word again) their favourite targets to do so at the 1st opportunity...

Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote laidbackdood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 2:20am
laidbackdood View Drop Down
Titanium
Titanium
Avatar

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 4998
Agree.....Discussions about fishing......is what this place is all about.....just make your point with a smile........we can all learn from one anotherThumbs Up
Once the idiots turn up..Im outta here...No time for Drama Queens.
Back to Top
Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote fish i Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 4:25pm
fish i View Drop Down
Platinum
Platinum
Avatar

Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Location: ngahinemotu
Status: Offline
Points: 1765
Thanks guys, hope we all learned something. Lbd2 proved your point of so well, like gold
6th place in the inaugural Te Kauwhata Regionals paddle crab division
Back to Top
Page  <1 234
Forum Jump
Forum Permissions View Drop Down


This page was generated in 1.023 seconds.

Fishing Reports Visit Reports

Saltwater Fishing Reports
Top of the South Fishing Report - 22/03/24

Tasman and Golden Bay snapper still running hot We are not far away from daylight... Read More >

22 Mar 2024
Saltwater Fishing Reports
Bay of Islands Fishing Report - 22/03/24

Variety is the spice of life On one recent trip, the plan was to spend a... Read More >

22 Mar 2024
Saltwater Fishing Reports
Hauraki Gulf Fishing Report - 22/03/24

Fish where the fish are! Catching fish or just going fishing? I tackle this issue... Read More >

22 Mar 2024
Saltwater Fishing Reports
Inner Hauraki Gulf Fishing Report - 22/03/24

Thoughtful tactics required for better fish Over the course of each year the fishing varies,... Read More >

22 Mar 2024
Fishing bite times Fishing bite times

Major Bites

Minor Bites

Major Bites

Minor Bites