Which 50hp four stroke?

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    Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 10:09am
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Howdy folks,

So after 3 blown up Tohatsu's its time for something else.
50hp is probably just a touch overpowered for our boat but the 30hp 2strokes we've been running is slightly under-powered.
(so why not 40hp you ask; after killing a few motors I would rather have too much power & not work the motor very hard, also weight of 40 & 50 is very similar (a big consideration for us))

Price is a factor but have access to enough cash to buy the best & really after my current experience am willing to pay for reliability.

Currently looking at Honda, Suzuki & Yamaha.
Honda is handy as the dealer & service agent is 10minutes away
Yamaha is a bit more, more of a hike to the dealer in Opua but has the reputation for quality
Suzuki looks to be the cheapest but I've got to go to Whangarei, still heard good things about them.

I do reasonable hours each year, usually at least 100.

Very keen on some feedback
Cheers
Noel
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 10:31am
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Honda for me.as dealer handy.never had a problem the small Honda I had.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Marknado4000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 10:51am
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50HP honda is the same as the 40HP motor, 3 Cylinder 800cc.

Yamaha and Suzuki 50hp share the same block as the 60/70HP and are both 1 litre (give or take) Suzuki 3 cylinder, Yamaha 4 cylinder

So for your setup is 50 is pushing it the Honda might be the best option. It will be lighter and has less torque than the suzuki and yammy (due to the difference in displacement)

All are good options reliability wise. I have the Suzuki 50hp
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Marknado4000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 10:58am
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Also if you have blown up 3x 30hp tohatsu's (very reliable motor), I assume you already have but maybe just check double/triple check your setup is all correct. Premixing, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 11:02am
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Have a honda 40 on f14 fisher. 6year old ,zero problems. 

Honda now have 7 year warranty.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 12:17pm
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Sold several Honda 50's powering some houseboats we used to own. Last pair were up well over 2000 hrs from memory. Compression test at time of sale showed compressions that were just at the low end of what they were meant to be when brand new i.e. they could have just left the factory. I think any of the engines you are looking at will work for you but my experiences with the Honda 50's were pretty good.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Catchelot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 12:45pm
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I am curious as to what happened or went wrong with the Tohatsu' Noel? I thought those motors were damn near bulletproof.
"The sea, once it casts its spell, holds one in its net of wonder forever." - Jacques Cousteau
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Similar to thwe above..  what make you think its over/ underpowered??
What is the top speed and rpms best trim on flat water?
 What is the total gross weight on the water?
 The latter can be calculated from the former
 What prop, diameter/ pitch?
What is cruising speed and rpms?
 What sort of boat?

As commented above.. all these engines are well built, kill 3, signifies something else is wrong.. beside full on neglect and/or abuse, thats usually under or over propping.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote shaneg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 10:24pm
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I will give you a real honest answer to your question as a consumer... INMHumbleO.
The 50 Yamaha is the finest motor in that class
And you mite ritely ask why I think that...
1) yamaha - owned one of first ones in F50 hp ...did over 5000 hours over 15 years with fairly regular servicing ... lots of trollling marlin loved it. Wonderful engines new ones will only be better
2) Merc and evinrude history is rubbish in 4 stroke, new models in 4 stroke still unproven
3) Suzuki - currently own 60 four stroke - Suzuki have a terrible history in NZ. New ones seem very good ... almost proving themselves.. time will tell... yes you can get good deals on them as they needed to do to win back share. Fast and good power to weight ratio I suspect versus other motors.. but not all what it is about. Marlin don't seem to like em after couple seasons trolling
4) hondas probably good (people who have them like them always a good thing) but generally heavier biggest motor in class... may be weight factor on back of boat vs other lighter outboards in class... may have changed but worth checking. Marlin do seem to quite like Honda. Sometimes more expensive?
5) tohatsu always made great 2 strokes -and I've owned one in 2 stroke and did serious hours maybe 1500 -2000... in four stroke perhaps they not so good! Were always good cheap option. In 2 stroke.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Reel Deal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 11:01pm
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I have a mixed bag. A Yamaha man for 4 boats then got a boat I wanted but it had a Johnson on it - I said to myself that when the jonnie stuffs up Ill get a yammie. I should have said if. Jonnie has put in a stella performance and looks like I wont get a chance to put a yammie on the back.
Saying that I have spoken to a number of charter operators in the pacific who swear by Honda 4 strokes with huge hours on.

So I’m grey inside wearing white and could swing silver....:-)
The gods do not subtract from the allotted span of men's lives the hours spent on fishing - Assyrian Proverb
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote shaneg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2018 at 11:09pm
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So your a swinger but I'm not convinced when you've had black you'll never go back...

... to grey or that Honda fawn colour
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote The cook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2018 at 8:16am
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Thanks everyone, love this place for getting this kind of feedback.

Honda is looking the most likely, cheapest, closest dealer & lightest motor.

Catchelot; the tohatsu story is a bit odd. We bought them because like you we thought they were bulletproof.

1st motor was 2nd hand as we had just built the boat & couldn't afford anything else. got less than a year out of it & put it down to buying some else's problem.

2nd motor brand new, got 3 1/2 years before the big end bearing went. All advice at the time, including the dealer suggested that we must have failed to oil the fuel at some stage. One of those things that you cant remeber100%.

3rd motor brand new, got 3 years exactly (to the day) before the big end bearing went. This is where it gets interesting, dealer said it had overheated. Insurance assessor said no sign of overheating, took it to a very reputable local crowd who did a bit of forensics & concluded big end bearing & absolutely no signs of overheating.
Thing is after the others I have been religious about mixing the fuel as soon as I fill the tanks, we've bought the very best oil we could find & run it on that.
Serviced every 50 hr on the dot & most annoyingly 4 months before it died I felt like something wasn't right. New sounds, slightly rough idle, tiny power drop, sent it to the dealer as by this stage was paranoid as hell, had a look, changed perfectly good impeller & gearbox oil & said it was all good. Hmmmm, particularly annoying as the report we got said; "this is not something that has happened all of a sudden & would have been getting worse over time".

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2018 at 8:20am
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lets also keep in mind , high hours are not the be all to end all.
 most general public engines would be lucky to to do more than 20 or 30 hrs per yr. 
 Sort of like buying an expensive diamond file to use once for 2 mins.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote The cook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2018 at 8:46am
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Hey steps was trying to post a pic of the boat but doesn't seem to work like it used to.

I do 50 trips a year on avr, usually around 100hrs so well worth spending some money in my case.

We built our own boat, 16 1/2 foot ply 'Rifleman', bit like the island pangas in hull shape.
How do I know its underpowered? Put simply 10years of boating in it. If its just me with not much gear the 30hp is perfect, tops out at 23knts on a flat sea, gets up quickly & punches through a sea well.
Problem is that we usually fish 2 up with a big livebait tank & a big fish bin. Loaded like this it does 17knts comfortably but is running towards WOT, once you get into a biggish sea (particularly from behind) it can struggle to stay on the plane & its WOT the whole way. We played around with a bunch of props & ended up with a fairly expensive cupped stainless steel one that gave us a very good compromise between power & speed. Also tried a variety of mounting heights & again fairly sure we got that nailed.
One of my concerns with the Tohatsu is that we were just working it to hard, running too close to WOT too much. Interestingly when I've mentioned this the general feedback is these motors should handle this, particularly at the age the were (3yrs - 350hrs).
One concern we had was that with our very narrow transom with the livebait pump, sounder & ventury a lot of spray was thrown up that we were concerned could be getting into the motor. As a result we put a splash guard up above the water line to mitigate this.
Anyway got me stumped, would love to work out whats gone wrong as if there is something I've been doing I need to change it!
guess there is a very small possibility we just got unlucky
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Gappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2018 at 10:33am
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We had Honda 40's on our Yacht club patrol boats on 4.7m ribs they just had no grunt and the electrics gave us heaps of issues. 

Switched to Suzuki DF50's bit heavier but way more grunt and torque especially when towing in kids in swamped boats. They also use less fuel than the Hondas were as not working as hard and have given us no issues at all. 

Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 10:00am
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Sry late reply , been in the process of moving house/ workshop etc

 Big end bearing.. on a couple.. that indicates classic slow death of an engine by incorect loading of the power head due to incorect propping for the end use of the engine

Ok will deal with each of these bits of info independently

16 1/2 foot ply 'Rifleman'
 I would guesstimate an open ply boat this size about 800kg (??)


tops out at 23knts on a flat sea
(assuming the motor is correct height and at best trim for WoT at that speed,) calculates to approx 750 kg
 I think would be safe to assume trim and maybe height not exact, so estimate around 800/850 kg

we usually fish 2 up with a big livebait tank & a big fish bin. Loaded like this it does 17knts comfortably but is running towards WOT,
This calc out to (assuming trim etec is correct) to around 1250kg, take a bit off for incorect trim etc say 1100kg


once you get into a biggish sea (particularly from behind) it can struggle to stay on the plane & its WOT the whole way.

Classic under powered.. min power will be you have to work the throttle a little to stay on the plane when hit the bigger set of waves in a set

We played around with a bunch of props & ended up with a fairly expensive cupped stainless steel one that gave us a very good compromise between power & speed.

"play around" espec to get best cruise speed etc generally ends up with an engine over propped, no or little reserve power right thru rpm range and not reach manufactures recommened rpm WOT rpm range.. or just scarpe into the very bottom.
 it give good economy and faster cruise speeds
 But it has the powerhead (bearings crank ) loaded up all the time.
Like a little under powered tractor ploughing a feld as fast as it can go all the time.

The bit of critical info missing is what are the rpms at WoT normal load?
 Your ball park target on a tohatsu/ nissan 30 and 50 hp would be around 5350 rpms with a pitch around 7 to 8" of the corect diameter/ slip.
This would give a cruise around 10/ 11 knt assuming it could even be up on the plane...!!!!!

 Personally I think your expectations as to cruise speed and planing is way to high for such a boat..
Most planing hulls around this size and weight drop off the plain around the 18/19knt mark.

To get a planing hull boat, say a old sea nymph gull wing ( far better designed plaining hull) around this size and weight well powered would have around a 115hp motor and a cruise speed @ 4000 rpms around 30 mph.

I dont know much about this hull or boat, very little.. Going on the numbers I suspect the hull is more a displacement or semi displacement hull.. Very different to a plaining hull and that your expectations as to the use and the powering are very incorect.
 Trying to meet these expectations WILL RESULT IN SERIOUS OF LOADING of the engine power head and failure.

 Will try to isustrate like this.
 Take the example of the sea nymp gull wing speed/ cruise above.
 Now we can also put that 115 hp motor on a say 28' displacement (non planing or semi plain) launch to nicely putt around the harbour.
 And it will putt all day at a very reliable and comfortable 28' launch cruise speed @ 3800/4000 rpms... 

 Same engine just different applications...and propped accordingly  one a 19" pitch prop, the other maybe a 5 or 9" pitch, both with very different diameters and cupping.




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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Durban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 2:04pm
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I would buy Honda being 4 stroke a carbed motor gona give you less trouble in a long run than injectors you will in a long run keep your money in your pocket when it comes to maintenance and repair .Also bear this in mind a open loop 4 stroke in my eyes are more reliable than a 4 stroke designed to run closed loop then at a certain rpm it switches over to open loop its no wonder a lot of folks are having problem with oxygen sensors i think Tagit has mentioned this before regarding oxygen sensors .
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote SpearPoint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 2:33pm
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Hey Cook, 

I've been running a Honda 2008 BF50 with no dramas.

I'm able to launch from Opito Bay shoot across to the Black Rocks then up to the Ninepin and back for half a tote running the whole time at about 5000rpm (If it uses stuff all fuel why not go fast). 

The only thing I don't like about it is the paint is crap. If buying one new I would spray some sort of clear coat over it. I would definitely have another though.

PS I'm selling my rig soon to fund a wedding, flick me a message if you'd be interested in a second hand one.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Schampy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2018 at 9:04pm
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Just got back from Lembongan Island Bali. The motor of choice there was the classic Yamaha 40 hp 2 stroke. Hundreds of boat there had them in twin, triple and quadruple set ups. And pretty much have the nuts thrashed off them every day, Dredging there way through the coral lagoon in the morning to take divers and surfers out and return home every arvo on mass with thousands of sunburnt backpackers who relised they should of worn a t-shirt. Looked like the bloody D-Day landing. My point is all those boat operators dont choose a brand that there lively-hood depends on because it looks pretty. The numbers of yammys there was mind blowing, like pretty much every donk there. Have had one ( 3 cyl 40hp) on my own boat. Cheap, simple,lite, Reliable. 
Interesting to read about Tohatsu,s They are hard to kill. They would be my 2nd choice in that size behind a Yammy.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Reel Deal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2018 at 8:40am
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Yes two stroke is easy to maintain and fix and when you dont have a local specialist thats very imp[ortant. I was rolling in a banana boat and weather was good so trolling a reef further offshore. Picked up a rhythmic wease sound. Found the local driving the boat was pumping the fuel line with his foot to keep the fuel flowing due to condition of line connectors. Very practical but a bit un nerving at the location we were at.
The gods do not subtract from the allotted span of men's lives the hours spent on fishing - Assyrian Proverb
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