Who pays?

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    Posted: 20 Nov 2017 at 2:22pm
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Question.
I purchased a new 575 Surtees from a dealer who also does the outboard servicing. Purchased in November last year, so just about to turn one.

Outboard serviced at 20hrs and again at 100 hrs by said dealer in January. At about 150hrs, about 4 months after last service outboard starTed to run a bit rough at low idle. Took it into dealer and they changed the plugs, and added a fuel additive. No mention of coSt and I thought that was the end of the matter however I just received an invoice 4 months later for $150 for the plugs additive and labour. Should I be paying this considering it had only just been serviced?

Should an outboard be wearing through plugs when only 6months old?

Interested in others opinions.

Cheers

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kevin.S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2017 at 2:46pm
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I'd consider spark plugs to be consumables, and not covered by warranty.Also the fuel additive would be chargeable, but why did they put it in? Did they tell you what the problem was, or why they put the fuel additive in?  I was advised by my mechanic that modern fuels, being used with modern 4 stroke outboards, only have a maximum tank life of 3 months without putting additives in. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote edge01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2017 at 3:23pm
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they should have told you that you would be getting charged for that stuff. Four months later is a bit on the nose. Did they actually change the spark plugs at the 100 hrs service or not?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pompey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2017 at 3:33pm
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Typical of service and attitude of many in the marine industry.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2017 at 3:34pm
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I had a somewhat similar experience two years back.. Took boat in for warranty service.
They checked the plugs and said they were perfect & did not need replacing. First trip out a couple of days after service the motor ran very rough.
Contacted service agent and explained.
They came the following day and picked up the boat,rectified problem and returned boat to my driveway.They also gave an apology .

Diagnosis was one plug was faulty. Assume when removing and replacing a plug it is possible on the rare occasion to damage it.

Problem was fixed,problem did not reoccur .

Invoice--NGK plugs-3. Total inc gst $27.60. No labour charge.

In my case i had not bought boat and motor from this dealership as it was purchased from well out of Auckland.
So if you purchased boat ,and assume motor from them And you get hit with that bill ,i personally would find it outrageous given your custom to them.
Also if plugs were working fine before service then  why were they not working fine a few months after.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2017 at 4:21pm
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I was advised by my mechanic that modern fuels, being used with modern 4 stroke outboards, only have a maximum tank life of 3 months without putting additives in. 

Sry ...A professional  BS excuse
 If stored in plastic containers.. maybe.. only maybe..but very unlikely at 3 months
 If in a steel tank.. stainless or steel, as in a car.. and vented and sees extreme temp changes.. ie a classic a car stored for for the winter, 6 or 9 months and only a gallon or so left in it... ie a 10 or 12 gal tank with 1 gallon.. lot air space.
 It MAY have issues with hard starting.. once started wil run ok to a gas station to the fill up and dilute.

The problem is the more volatile solvents added since lead was dropped.. these effect the starting ability of the engine  and octane.... very marginally but not enough to effect normal running...

If you had no problems firing up the engine, then you do not have a fuel composition issue..



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Hunter - I assume this is a 4 stroke engine. It is very unlikely that a 4 stroke engine has a 150hr service interval on spark plugs.100hr checks and 400hr replacement would be more normal I think. So that means to me that the part failed under warranty and well under it's service life. To me that means they sort it out and claim from the manufacturer unless that part was damaged by your usage somehow. The warranty may specifically exclude plugs so you need to read it, but I would have them on and say that they need to explain why you got billed for a part that failed under warranty at under half it's listed service life and then ask whether that part was 'fit for purpose' under the definitions of the consumer guarantees act. The other thing you could do is contact the master dealer for your engine and see if the service guys claimed a warranty repair already and have just invoiced you for a possible 'double dip'. A 4 month delay in invoicing would make me a little suspicious.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote OneWayTraffic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2017 at 10:04pm
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I had a similar issue second trip out with a little DF20a serviced at Tristam marine in Hams. Took it in spark plugs replaced for free. No issues in the year after that I had it. Top service from those guys on that occasion and the others that I had cause to deal with them. 


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kevin.S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2017 at 11:07am
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Originally posted by Steps Steps wrote:



Sry ...A professional  BS excuse


I thought that, but have been told the same thing by different outboard mechanics.  I found this on BP's Australian web site, I'd expect fuel to last a bit longer here if it wasn't summer as we don't usually get extended periods of 30°+ temperatures like they do in oz.

PETROL AND TWO STROKE MIX – STORAGE IN CONTAINERS Volatile fuels such as petrol and two stroke mixes will store for up to one year in a sealed container. After that period the fuel may still be fit for purpose but problems such as hard starting and spark plug fouling may occur due to lack of light components. Once the seal is broken then lighter components evaporate and the storage life is best assumed to be 6 months at ambient temperatures of 20 deg C and 3 months at ambient temperatures of 30 degrees C or more. 

PETROL AND TWO STROKE MIX – STORAGE IN EQUIPMENT Petrol and two stroke mix in a fuel tank is exposed to the air and lighter components will readily evaporate. This will result in the fuel becoming heavier and will cause hard starting and spark plug fouling and rough running and misfire because the fuel will make the air fuel mix richer in fuel, not all of this fuel can be completely burnt so it will leave sooty deposits in the combustion chamber. For this reason any petrol and two stroke mix which has been in the equipment tank for more than 2 weeks at 30 deg C or higher should be used with caution. Volatile fuel that has been in equipment fuel tanks for more than two weeks should be freshened with an equal volume of new fuel to restore volatile components and reduce fouling issues. Keeping equipment fuel tanks one third full stops moisture from getting into the fuel tank and leaves room to add fuel to freshen the mix. Safety concerns need to be addressed when keeping equipment tanks partially full while not in use. BP fuels contain anti oxidants to stop fuel from deteriorating and forming gums, they contain metal deactivators to prevent corrosion of copper and brass fuel system components and detergents to clean fuel systems of deposits that interfere with performance. BP Ultimate also contains a corrosion inhibitor to keep steel lines and components free of rust and the higher octane provides protection against octane loss during storage
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2017 at 11:55am
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How would that work when lots of boaties just top up the tank when a quarter to half empty. Mix of fresh and who knows how old fuel in the tank.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kevin.S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2017 at 12:58pm
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I think that's the best way to do it Cirrus, they suggest keeping tanks 1/3 full to stop moisture but leave enough room for a top up to freshen the fuel.

This never used to be a problem, so I suspect it's to do with the modern "clean burn" fuels being more volatile.  Also probably because modern engines are less tolerant of fuel that is slightly off.  My outboard mechanic said his wife used to have an old car and she ran that on the fuel he drained from tanks that he wouldn't run a modern outboard on.  But now she has a newer fuel injected car he just gets it collected by a recycler.

I'll certainly be looking into using additives in my petrol in case it ends up standing for longer than I think it will.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote :Hunter: Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2017 at 2:37pm
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Ok so heres an update. Ues plugs were checked at 100hrs, but no they are not covered under warranty.

I have contacted Yamaha directly who also contacted the dealer. Dealer told Yamaha that i had been doing lots of trolling which is what stuffed the plugs. I had done some game trolling during the season but wouldnt think this would foul the plugs as still doing 3500 rpm.

Anyway Yamaha stated that the plugs would normally be replaced at 300hrs, and asked what I wanted from the situation. I said that I didnt think I should be paying to replace something that lasted only half its lifespan. He is speaking to the dealer again so will see what comes of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2017 at 2:50pm
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I would like to see them also explain why trolling fouls the plugs on a new 4 stroke when I assume it gets a good run at either end of the day? If you are trolling at 3500rpm what engine on what size boat? If that is 8 to 9 knts @ 3500rpm then something sounds a little strange in the setup and may be contributing to the problem
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote :Hunter: Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2017 at 3:04pm
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Pretty sure it is, might be more like 3200 actually, about 7kts with a 115 on a 575 Surteea.
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That sounds all wrong Hunter and to be fair might be part of the problem. That sounds like an overload situation with heaps of prop slip. I would have thought 7 knts would be more like 2000rpm but I don't know that hull/engine combo very well. Just sounds wrong though. Would be worth running some prop slip numbers to see if it really is as bad as that seem to me. If the engine is running badly overloaded at that speed/revs then you don't want to keep running it like that.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote :Hunter: Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2017 at 3:20pm
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Na pretty standard, mates boat is the same. Engine isnt overloaded at all and it is a standard setup by Surtees. My point was that the trolling hoirs were not low revs which might cause the plugs to foul, however i thought that was more of a 2 stroke thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2017 at 3:29pm
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Originally posted by :Hunter: :Hunter: wrote:

Na pretty standard, mates boat is the same. Engine isnt overloaded at all and it is a standard setup by Surtees. My point was that the trolling hoirs were not low revs which might cause the plugs to foul, however i thought that was more of a 2 stroke thing.
exactly what I was thinking,trolling or flat out fouled plugs??really,have you noticed any change in oil level?it is a 4 stroke. Shouldn't be any oil near plugs.
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If you are doing 7knts at 3200rpm or similar then you are getting '****loads' of prop slip. If you weren't your boat would top out at 14knts at 6400rpm or similar and I guess it does over twice that. To get that much prop slip you pretty much have to be overloaded at that speed. If it is overloaded then it may be running quite rich and that could explain the plugs failing early.

Bigfishbob just posted his numbers for a 115 on a 570 Extreme in the Fuel Flow & economy thread. He is getting 8knts at 3000rpm with 52% prop slip. Your numbers by comparison would look like being in the 60% - 70% prop slip range. To be that bad there has to be something horrible going on at that speed. 7knts is probably at the absolute top end of displacement speed for that hull and you are probably 'riding the hump' pretty badly hence my comment about overloading. Bottom line is that a 5.7m planing hull doing 7 - 8knts is not going to be very easy on the engine unless it is pretty big.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pompey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2017 at 5:10pm
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This is probably a useless comparison but here goes. I run twin 115hp 4 strokes on a Stabicraft 2400. At 3500rpm, I am up and planing. It seems high rev's for trolling. I have done some trolling, can't remember the rev's but below 3500.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2017 at 5:59pm
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With modern sender/ ECU controlled power heads, even idf have huge slip cause power head is at max hp at that rpms and the prop is way to high pitch.. not enough power to have the prop turn fast enough, resulting in running.. in effect a slipping clutch... The ECU will adjust the mixtures AND the spark advance accordingly.. Which will keep chamber temps reaonbly constant and to cause excessive fouling.

 But bottom line.. there is no issue fouling , or old fuel or anything like that..
Its The dealer trying to recoup costs after finding out 4 months on possible changed a set of plugs possble because one was faulty..
 These days faulty plugs is a very rare rarity.. the biggest cause of a faulty plug is someone dropping it on a concrete floor.. or dropping a whole box of them...
or dont start screwing then put the socket on straight, cracking an insulator.
 I bet they remove all the plugs out of their individual boxes at the same time, then check gaps , then install...rather than remove gap install each separately..
 Where have the basic old school skills gone these days?

 Thats why I have had carpet and underlay down under the work area bay in my shed .. not cause it looks cool, or warm... oh it soaks up a oil spill well also.
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