Charging electronic devices on the boat/questions

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote CEEBEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2017 at 1:51pm
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Seems the average power output required for most laptops is around 0.5 - 4 amps so will be ample.

If output is 18v = 720 watts at 4 amps.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote mattyroo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2017 at 11:03am
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Originally posted by CEEBEE CEEBEE wrote:

Seems the average power output required for most laptops is around 0.5 - 4 amps so will be ample.

If output is 18v = 720 watts at 4 amps.

Try 72 watts. If it were 720 you would need at least 50mm² cables to your cigarette lighter socket...
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote dontpanic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2017 at 4:22pm
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Looking further into this the mac book has a tricky rectangular plug that is magnetic so it will not adapt to any cigarette lighter type charging systems
I have come to the conclusion that by the time we invest into a differant laptop/notebook/tablet I may as well invest in house batteries and be done with it.
Simplest setup I have in mind is to repace the starboard N150 battery with 2 huge Chinese AGM batteries 275AH@20hr, I will remote mount the batteries foward and centre of the engine room in a locker under the galley floor so the extra weight will not make the boat lean, these AGM batteries have a very high CCA rating so they will easily start the starboard engine and 550AH will be plenty for our weekend boating trips, the entire electrical system will remain factory exept for the 2.5m extention of battery cable and the bigger battery bank for the starboard engine.
 
Brendon
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MacSkipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2017 at 6:12pm
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Originally posted by dontpanic dontpanic wrote:

Looking further into this the mac book has a tricky rectangular plug that is magnetic so it will not adapt to any cigarette lighter type charging systems
I have come to the conclusion that by the time we invest into a differant laptop/notebook/tablet I may as well invest in house batteries and be done with it.
Simplest setup I have in mind is to repace the starboard N150 battery with 2 huge Chinese AGM batteries 275AH@20hr, I will remote mount the batteries foward and centre of the engine room in a locker under the galley floor so the extra weight will not make the boat lean, these AGM batteries have a very high CCA rating so they will easily start the starboard engine and 550AH will be plenty for our weekend boating trips, the entire electrical system will remain factory exept for the 2.5m extention of battery cable and the bigger battery bank for the starboard engine.
 
Brendon
/* .href;s=a.indexOf('/cdn-cgi/l/email-protection');m=a.length;if(a&&s>-1&&m>28){j=28+s;s='';if(j/g,'>');l.href='mailto:'+t.value}}catch(e){}}}catch(e){}})(document);/* ]]> */ From this I take it you will be hooked up to a mains  charger during week so batteries are fully charged?  Would guess motor would have to run 10 hrs or more to charge batteries unless you upgrade as well?
Good fishing trip nothing breaks, great trip catch fish.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote dontpanic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2017 at 6:31pm
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Yes - Boat sits on a marina and plugged into shore power, the boat has a 20amp dolphin charger that was fitted from new.
With the plan all of this will remain untouched
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Fraser Hocks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2017 at 11:00am
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Woww sounds like a fair cash outlay just to keep a kid happy on a laptop?    Why not be done and buy a new boat, and leave the kid at home on the laptop?? Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote SaltyC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2017 at 11:45am
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Hmm, check out the batteries you intend to buy carefully, not all aAGM batteries are created equal.

There is a very good charging batteries etc article on this website, mainly about cruising yachties but the process and conclusions are relevant:


I don't know how much you can access without joining as I have been a member for a few years, but it is the most comprehensive test and report I have ever found that is completely unbiased and real world experience.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MikeAqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2017 at 12:42pm
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With AGM batteries the rule of thumb is to only discharge to 50% of capacity. So a 200Ahr battery bank will allow you 100Ahr of use.  An LFP battery bank can be discharged much lower and they have higher energy density, but they cost a lot more.

I still think your simplest option to allow screen time while on the boat is a tablet and a 12v-USB adapter. 

You could get an iPad mini and the 12v - USB adapter for $700.  It's a genuinely portable device that will run on low amperage.

To run laptop you are poking substantial amperages around the boat - converting DC to AC to allow the laptop power-supply to convert it back to DC again to power the laptop internals  Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote dontpanic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2017 at 2:18pm
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Thanks Guys
Salty C your thinking is very close to mine and I appreciate your advice so far 
 
The batteries I am looking at are Nomad AGM they are at the cheaper end of the market but I am thinking if I go big then I will not need to lean on them as hard for our regular weekending and we have reserve capacity for the occasional longer tripp in the future  
 
 
I dont mind spending a few dollars to get this right because this is our family toy and its quality time that we spend together that makes it easy to justify in my opinion
 
Cheers Brendon
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Jemry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2017 at 2:33pm
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Originally posted by dontpanic dontpanic wrote:

Thanks Guys
Salty C your thinking is very close to mine and I appreciate your advice so far 
 
The batteries I am looking at are Nomad AGM they are at the cheaper end of the market but I am thinking if I go big then I will not need to lean on them as hard for our regular weekending and we have reserve capacity for the occasional longer tripp in the future  
 
 
I dont mind spending a few dollars to get this right because this is our family toy and its quality time that we spend together that makes it easy to justify in my opinion
 
Cheers Brendon
 
 
I've got the 270ah version of that battery as a house battery, went away over xmas for 9 days, no problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote dontpanic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2017 at 2:53pm
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(I've got the 270ah version of that battery as a house battery, went away over xmas for 9 days, no problems)
Awsome feedback thankyou Jemry
 
David from Waveinverter told me i would only need one battery, so I am definitly going overkill, maybe 2x 270 would be more sane.
 
Note the ratings on those Nomad batteries are quoted at 100hrs rather than 20 hrs so a 335@100 is 275@20 and a 270@100 is about 220@20
 
Cheers Brendon
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote SaltyC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2017 at 5:40pm
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I would check out the Lifeline batteries as well, they are what I bought (2 x 255 ah -@20hr). 

They are made in the USA and are military spec. 


The issue is not just how far and how often you can discharge the batteries but how quickly they can take a charge and these batteries will take up to 5 times their rated ah as input, they are also virtually immune to thermal runaway. I think they are now distributed in NZ by HCB  (they were distributed by SoPac when I got mine, so not sure of pricing now). They are also one of the very few AGM manufacturers who actually recommend equalisation for their batteries.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote SaltyC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2017 at 6:12pm
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I should have mentioned that I have been using these batteries for 5 years (installed May 2012) and they still perform exactly the same as the when we installed them.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote dontpanic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2017 at 6:20pm
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Thanks SaltyC
I will check into this tomorrow, A freind of mine has worked his entire career in the campervan industry, he told me to talk to the guys at Eliment 82 on the shore, and I see they carry the lineline batteries.
 
Cheers
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MikeAqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 3:12pm
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Originally posted by SaltyC SaltyC wrote:


these batteries will take up to 5 times their rated ah as input,


I'm struggling to understand your statement 

Are you saying these will take 5 x 225A as a charge current?  That seems very high.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote SaltyC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 4:38pm
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Yep,
extract from the Lifeline battery manual:

" the charging current during the bulk stage should be set as high as practical; higher current levels mean faster recharge time and less time for the plates to become sulphated. Lifeline batteries can tolerate in-rush current levels as high as 5C (500Amps for a 100Ah battery)"

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote mattyroo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 8:19pm
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Originally posted by MikeAqua MikeAqua wrote:

Originally posted by SaltyC SaltyC wrote:


these batteries will take up to 5 times their rated ah as input,


I'm struggling to understand your statement 

Are you saying these will take 5 x 225A as a charge current?  That seems very high.

It seems that is what he is saying, but it isn't correct.

In-rush is NOT the same as charging current.

I dare anyone to try and charge a battery at 1125 amps, if you can find a charger anywhere near that capacity, let alone cables that will take that current continuously. No battery will take 5 x rated capacity as a charging current.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote SaltyC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 8:43pm
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I posted the manual link Mattyroo, so rtfm!

At no time do I suspect that anyone will try to charge one of these batteries at 5C BUT the battery can accept that in the bulk charging phase before dropping back in the absorption phase, BUT obviously Ohms law applies as well, the higher the charge state of the batteries. the higher the resistance will become, even allowing for the very low internal resistance of these batteries, and the higher the resistance the lower the amps that it can accept will become.

Agree entirely, the cables necessary to even carry 500 amps would be horrendous but what is important to grasp is that you can install and benefit from a much larger alternator than would be usable with all flooded non-AGM batteries and most other AGM batteries. With most of them you cannot exceed about a third of the Ah capacity in charging amps without risking heat issues and possibly thermal runaway.

I installed a 150 amp alternator , and that works just fine for me, if I sit in a bay for a couple of days I can pull 150 to 200 Ah out of the batteries and in the first hour of running get a good portion of that back in before the charging rate starts to drop away.

The interesting thing is it doesn't take longer to get the batteries back to 90%+ (which should be the aim with each charging cycle to maximise battery life) if I have pulled 80 Ah out or 200 Ah out, and that is what you need with a planing launch that is not running motors for  a large number of hours to get anywhere each day.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote mattyroo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 9:06pm
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Mate, I did RTFM.

I am a qualified electrical engineer. I know exactly what in-rush current is and I do know that you cannot charge at in-rush current.

Edit: deleted the rest of my comment, as it's not worth it.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote smudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 10:40pm
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I think you guys may be arguing the same point. The specs say it will  accept 5C inrush current during the bulk charging stage. My thinking is that more than 5C will kill it fast and that in rush current will be most likely milliseconds.  I don't think SaltyC is trying to say you could charge it at that. My2c (of brain inrush Big smile).

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