Seachange - take note!

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    Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 12:15pm
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All recreational fishers should look at this, and make views known. If you don't your rights will be trampled over! This has been raised before; but it wont do any harm to raise it again.
 
Sorry its so voluminous - Ive tried to keep it down, but the info is much harder to find in the report, so it will be handy for people to see whats proposed without having to plough thru it all.
 
To see the plan, go to http://www.seachange.org.nz
Beware its big and full off goobledegook.
Unfortunately consultation has closed - ie it appears too late to make a submission. I expect in the future their will be opportunity to make views known to Government. 
 
The committee that has been coming up with proposals for the Hauraki Gulf, released a "Hauraki Gulf Marine Spatial Plan" - Launch copy, presumably a draft.
There are proposals that appear to be beneficial to recreational fishing; specifically proposals to remove bulk netting commercial fishing from the gulf. Also, there is something that will adversely affect recreational fishing - more Marine Reserves (as Marine Protected Areas).
 
First - I am shocked at how pitiful the treatment of recreational fishing is.

Because – there are very long and complicated deliberations about everything, except recreational fishing. The only significant description of recreational fishings interest appears to be on Page 63, as follows –

Fishing is a popular recreational activity in the Hauraki

Gulf Marine Park, with around 220,000 active fishers

in the Park. Numbers are likely to continue increasing

with projected population growth. Recreational fishers

gain a range of values from fishing, in addition to the

provision of food. They value being able to catch a

wide range of fish and sizes in accessible localities

and therefore benefit from high stock levels and suffer

disproportionately from localised depletion. The ability to

pass on fishing knowledge to the next generation is also

critical in this age of digital escape. As well as providing

many social benefits, recreational fishing supports a

large industry consisting of firms who support fishers

including boat builders, service providers, tackle and bait

suppliers, charter operators and attendant hospitality and

accommodation providers. Recreational fishing in the

Hauraki Gulf Marine Park supports a growing high value

international and domestic tourism economy.

Artisanal fishermen and women live in many of the Parks

communities. Smale-scale local businesses, often leasing

catch entitlement off the large fishing companies, they

provide much needed jobs, and rely on abundant fish

stocks for a living. They too want the opportunity to pass

on their knowledge (and their boats) to their children

The above description of recreational fishing, is approximately 200 words – ie about half a page. The rest of the Plan consists of hundreds of thousands of words describing other aspects. 200 words can not possibly begin to cover the importance of recreational fishing; particularly considering the huge number of people, estimated at 220,000 in Auckland, who want to take part in recreational fishing.

For example – section 5, about Aquaculuture, is 27 pages, approximately 11,000 words. So – recreational fishing has been given approximately 1.85% of the consideration of Aquaculture. And yet, 220,000 people benefit from recreational fishing; whereas aquaculture could not benefit any more than a tiny fraction of that number. I am not against aquaculture, but use that comparison to illustrate how biased the study is against recreational fishing.
 
Proposed are, new Marine Protected Areas, that exclude recreational fishing. I show below those that will affect me - new MPAs in the vicinity of Tiritiri Matangi Island.
 

This shows what appears to be two options. …” a decision was not reached on a single size, location or shape for these areas” and ……..”members arrived at two options for each of these areas”.   
Also – there is reference to two types of MPAs, Type 1 and Type 2, The cream area is Type 1 MPA (No-take Marine reserve, other than for customary purposes), the green area is Type 2 MPA (.restrict fishing methods that impact benthic (seabed) habitat - including scallop dredging.  
 

The first option, is for  MPA Type 1 encompassing the whole of the waters around Tiri island – the second , is for a far smaller area. The first large option covers approximately 30 square kilometres, ie 3,000ha., including all the coast of Tiritiri Matangi and nearby waters, including about half the Tiri channel, and as far as Shearers Rock. By comparison, the biggest Marine Reserve at present is Long Bay at 962ha, ie the proposed option is 3 times as big.
This possibility is grossly excessive. It so far away from what could be regarded as reasonable, that it must be a devious ploy to try and get the other smaller option. There is no place for this kind of deviousness.
Tiritiri Island is close to Hibiscus Coast, home to approx 50,000 residents. The interest in recreational fishing is huge. The waters around Tiri are extremely important for recreational fishing. Snapper like hanging around structure. Tiri waters have the biggest area of structure near the Whanagaparaoa peninsula.
Removing all recreational fishing from such a huge and important area would be a huge blow to the recreational fishers in the area. There would be great outcry.

Second Option: MPA type 1
This is far smaller, covering about 100ha, ie about 3% the size of option one.  Off the south-west and south coasts of Tiri. Obviously what the proposers think might be goer.  

It is not a goer. It is an unacceptable removal of rights from recreational fishers.  This would remove a valuable section of coast from recreational fishing. In an area that has little structure, any reduction is significant. It will be vigorously resisted.

The green area MPA Type 2, covers a large area around the end of Whangaparaoa, including all of Triri channel and seaward of Tiri to the existing cable zone. I understand that it proposes to disallow dredging for scallops. If so, I am in favour, as I believe that this method of gathering scallops is far to damaging on the seabed, and should be banned.

 

 

 

The light blue area is called Ahumoana Management Area. It covers all the coastline, out to 1km. What it actually means in practice is totally unclear, so I cant comment. If it allows restrictions to be introduced by local maori, then I believe it is unacceptable; as one part of society should not have greater rights than any other part

Kawau Bay

 

 

 

this also affects my fishing, and I can see it would adversely affect many others living in that area. Two options are proposed. First is for an enormous area approx 3,000ha, that would ruin recreational fishing in the area south and inshore from Kawau. Even worse, residents of Snells Beach and Martins Bay would lose all the fishing near the coast and have to travel out into exposed waters to fish. It is unbelievable. It is apparent, that the proponents have simply drawn an area on their map, without giving the slightest thought to how it would adversely affect recreational fishing.

 
 
 
 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Second option – is for a far smaller area. Again, this will be unacceptable, as any reduction in fishing area will simply exacerbate the continuing erosion of recreational fishing rights. Small changes need to be fought - as that's the way the anti-fishing brigade try and make big ones eventually.

There are also two alternative proposals for a new reserve on the north side of Rangitoto and Motutapu, that would badly affect recreational fishing.

 

 

 
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This is BS.  Basically that would be all in close sheltered spots closed down and extreme pressure coming on others. 
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Just had a browse through parts of the plan. Lots of bits I don't like because I think they lose focus of what the plan should be really trying to achieve in the name of political correctness. One part though really bugs me if I have understood it correctly. Ahu Moana. There appears to be what is effectively a proposal in there to hand over management of much of the coastal area to local Maori. The argument is that they will manage it better because of ancestral links etc. Well I have lived and fished in the HG for most of my fifty something years and my father did that for another 30 years or so before me. I don't see why someone is just assumed to have better understanding of the place because they are from a different race. If we are going to have community managed coastal areas then the management group should properly reflect the current population of users, not make some horribly PC assumptions about peoples current understanding because their great great grandfather used to fish there. 
I have no issue with trying to return the HG to a better state, but too much of what I read isn't about achieving a better result for the majority of the people. Looks like the process has been hijacks by the bureaucratic mess that we have in this country today.

Another favourite is that the plan says that charter boats are to report all their catch by 2017. My question is WHY? What is the benefit gained from putting additional costs on the charter fleet. Anyone with any knowledge of the charter industry in the HG, or any interest in even doing the most basic research can work out that the charter industry take maybe 3% - 5% of the HG snapper catch. Could even be less. So what is it that we think we will learn from this data? I would love to see what the justification is for imposing yet more costs on an industry that has been mercilessly raped by this government over the past few years. All I can think of is that it is just a case of the recreational representatives in this process throwing an unresearched bone to the commercial sector who have been going to great lengths to try and deflect blame for the depletion of the snapper stocks. 
Yes lets fix the problems, but lets do it in a business like way rather than create some inefficient, expensive, and cumbersome bureaucracy that becomes badly divorced from the end goals.
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I am going to cop some flak right here but I do not give a stuff the wool is being pulled over eyes.
The "seachange " steering committee has come up with these proposals and from what Mr Scott Macindoe from"legacy"told me at his residence,nothing can go ahead without the full backing of the committee. So has "legasea had a change in mind set agreeing to locked off areas(in effect marine reserves) Mr Simon Yates who is part of "legasea' stood there at a meeting and said I Quote " Marine reserves do nothing to increase stock levels they are a feel good society thing,for a reserve to work they need to be triple the size"

So what is there (legasea) thinking by allowing or agreeing to these proposals? Is this a case of lets go for the ride suck in more public funds?
When one looks at John H  post and you question him on such articles does a u turn and try to justify his existence/funding

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I will invite John H ,Bitetime "Richard Baker" to try and defend themselves
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I wouldn't underestimate how much pressure these guys are under to find an agreeable solution pjc. The real question for me is whether the end result full reflects the requirements of the biggest stakeholder group which is the recreational fishing public. What I read (maybe wrongly) into the report is that it mostly represents the interests of minority stake holders who might be over-represented in the working group, with the blanket assumption supported by some selected survey quotes that the majority stakeholders will be happy with anything that reduces the commercial rape, or that they are too disorganized to make a serious protest. 
It is election year next year. we need to be even more vocal than during the last election, and you need to start that process months before the election. Unless the government is forced to recognise the voice of the recreational fishing community we will continue to marginalised in favour of other groups.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Capt Asparagus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 2:27pm
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I dont really care about all the other stuff, MPAs etc....what I think the most important thing is, if adopted, that by 2025 there will be no commercial netting over reefs or seafloor damaging types of fishing activitues, trawling, gill netting danish seining etc, from bream head to the mokes,to outside gt Barrier, to Cuvier, red merc, aldies down to between waihi and whangamata. AND...12 miles out from there, ie; territorial limits.
With comms apart from long liners banned from all these areas, inc the HG, things can only get better.
It may not be the purists Rec Fishing agenda put in place, but in a sane world that is never gunna happen. Are there reserves. Yes. Are there the statutory kowtowing to maori, yes, is it anti commercial, no, longliners and aquaculture are being promoted, . Of any chances to make positive changes to our marine environment, this is, I think, the best you could likely ever get.
Now, to make funding secure for rec fishing lobbying etc...., licences. Gotta do it.
It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.

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Ban Seining /trawling netting in general by 2025?there lies my problem,if the powers to be are serious it would banned on the 1st January 2017. We are not serious about rebuilding stocks?how more damage will be done by 2025? Oh you silly people keep forgetting the import issue.Mpi wants fish exports doubled by 2018! So by 2025 it will be stuffed and yes you and I will then be paying the price. 1 snapper min size 500 to max size 650mm
You can laugh but I reckon I will not be to far off the mark

No time to be nice,nows the time time to take onboard work out how to tackle 2017 election and get whats right for the people of NZ.

Where is the Tane o te Whenua voice on "Seachange"?? bet this is being well hidden from iwi?
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Originally posted by Capt Asparagus Capt Asparagus wrote:

I dont really care about all the other stuff, MPAs etc....what I think the most important thing is, if adopted, that by 2025 there will be no commercial netting over reefs or seafloor damaging types of fishing activitues, trawling, gill netting danish seining etc, from bream head to the mokes,to outside gt Barrier, to Cuvier, red merc, aldies down to between waihi and whangamata. AND...12 miles out from there, ie; territorial limits.
With comms apart from long liners banned from all these areas, inc the HG, things can only get better.
It may not be the purists Rec Fishing agenda put in place, but in a sane world that is never gunna happen. Are there reserves. Yes. Are there the statutory kowtowing to maori, yes, is it anti commercial, no, longliners and aquaculture are being promoted, . Of any chances to make positive changes to our marine environment, this is, I think, the best you could likely ever get.
Now, to make funding secure for rec fishing lobbying etc...., licences. Gotta do it.

My main point being Stu - what good is all this if you aren't allowed to access all that new abundance? Where are the forecasts and guarantees that should the rec community go along with this plan that they will be allowed to reap the rewards. All the history says that we won't, and to think that things will somehow miraculously change based on this report is in my opinion a bit silly.
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Correct "Tagit" we should be the major stakeholder but we are being treated a minor holder
There may be a opportunity for your business in the future though,fishing outside these reserves with fly rods and tourist,releasing fish and making $$  Name of the game?Auckland would/could benefit in that case hotels/charters etc
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote John H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 2:58pm
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I don't need to defend myself or anyone else.

I can try and explain a few things.  Sea Change was an appalling process right from the start. It was promoted by the Environmental Defense Society and sponsored by Auckland Council and Waikato Regional Council. The consultation and Round Table meetings generated little of real value.  The Stakeholder Working Group developed a draft plan which was eventually rejected nearly 2 years ago. 

A new Chairman and a new Stakeholder Working Group picked up the pieces. The different groups represented all had vastly different views on what the HG Marine Park should look like and all groups got some of what they wanted in the final plan.  There was also a lot of debate about what should not be in the plan, time and resources ran out. There was a time when the second plan looked like it would be rejected but I think it was decided that the process had run its course, lay all the cards down and see which parts of the plan get implemented.

The Councils can act on the water quality and reducing sedimentation but any of the Fisheries changes need to come from MPI and the Minister. Any of the Marine Protected Areas have to come from DOC and the MPA Act which has not be written yet.

Yes there will be change in the HG. Some of this will be good for recreational fishers some will be not so good.  LegaSea will be focused on rebuild fish stocks in the HG, shifting trawling and Danish seine out of the Gulf and having a separate quota management area for the HG Marine Park so that commercial catch can be managed. All of which are in the plan.

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We were all warned about this process and the people, one person in particular who were involved. A few people attacked the messenger. I hope under the fullness of time, when the real beneficiaries of/behind this agreemement are made public that those same people have the courage and fortitude to apologise.
I have scanned the document and it does not actually ban rec fishers. However the expression "death by a thousand cuts" comes to mind because the more they cut out the less inclined people will be to go fishing. Especially if they have to travel large distances by sea/land to do so. The guano Ahu Moana clause if brought to fruition could spell the end for most of the rec fishing in the Gulf and is just another example of the ingrained racism/separatism sweeping the country.
Agree with Tagit. I have been fishing nearly all of my fifty odd years. All over NZ. From my first plastic rod fishing for Spotties off Wellington wharves at the age of three to fishing the Gulf yesterday. I am a fifth generation New Zealander. Why are my views/needs subserviant to someone with sometimes dubious and very little ethnic ancestry?
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There are a heap of opportunities to derive 'export value' from tourism fishing. There isn't many days now where there aren't multiple groups of tourists heading for a fish just from where we are at Z pier. I doubt that many are here just to fish, but I do know that at least a small % have that as a primary goal. 
Say 10 of them go out and they catch 3 fish each. Allowing for taxis, food, etc that is probably a $2000 day and they take 30 fish. Export value of each fish is around $65 into out economy, and that is disregarding any share of the associated accommodation and service spending. If we had world class fishing and actively promoted it we could probably work out that every snapper caught by a tourist is worth well over $100 in export earnings. Probably worth less than $5 when trawl caught and shipped at a guess. You wouldn't need that many fishing tourists to completely replace the export value of snapper caught in the HG. Trouble is that the charter industry, some of who are actively trying to promote this 'export' don't have friends in government and hence have no real voice to say that there is an export business case for this country that makes much more sense than shipping unprocessed fish as a cheap commodity. Not only that, but it would support the initiative to improve the HG. How about a tourist fishing licence to do nothing but fund improvements in the HG?
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Another group of small confederations trying to carve up the gulf to fit with their own future agendas.
For a long time there has been a subtle move to make recreational feel guilty that they even fish.
Looking at the maps there go all my fishing spots.
When will they ever confront the real issues facing the gulf. They know what they are but avoid dealing with them.
No marine reserve will ever contain the very mobile fish we fish for.
The snapper ,Kahawai ,kingfish ,trevelly ,J.D etc are mobile and travel with the seasons. No reserve net work will ever contain them.
These suggested exclusion zones constitute a lockout of recreational. Nothing less. So how long before you are out there scrounging your next meal. (will be their words),and someone comes along and says "You are in the wrong place my friend,you better leave."
How about looking at the well known migration routes into the gulf.
Out the back of Kawau,Colville channel and all the way to Tiri.
Ever year fish and snapper in particular are hammered in these areas as they seek to enter the gulf spawning grounds in tight schools . Trawl nets , danish seine ,and tens of thousands of longline hooks take their toll on schools of mature fish. No wonder the fishery has changed. How about making these areas exclusion zones between October and december. But they would not do that would they. Too close to a solution,would effect the wrong people. And what about the quoted 1 million plus fish ,mainly small snapper in sn1,crushed in trawl nets and tossed back to rot. They dont seem to want to look at that either. Ironic when they release 40 000 small snapper into Tasman bay,yet in the H.G management gives little or no regard to waste.
The exclusion zones are where individuals and families seek rest and meaningful time out. Places where a five year old will catch their first fish,among the rolling dolphins,diving birds ,or some quiet bay. The best natural history class room on earth.They take the catch home,share in a family caught meal. So important in a increasingly fragmented society. That will all be gone. First they take away some of our fish,and now they want to take away the places we fish for them.
Dont let them make you feel guilty for catching a few fish.It is your right.
Just a couple of years back the infamous snapper cuts were upon us.
People got into their cars and drove across their cities and towns to attend the nearest meetings. Others got into their utes and drove down the country roads to attend theirs.
They believed they had something to offer. They believed in democracy, fairness ,and a shared fishery. After all they had been told about our shared fishery so many times before.
The MPI reps were welcoming ,pleasant and shared what they knew.
Not long after the meetings the decision came out. We took a cut in both our allowable take and another cut in increased size limit.
Commercial had no cuts. Their faith in the shared fishery was gone, their faith in democracy a little bit less. The great grinding  wheel of commerce ,and the parasitic elite had ground them down just that bit more. The towering but  but fragile wall  got a little  bit higher. They went away. They said nothing ,did not act . But they remember.
And now we see yet another attempt to blame us for the ills of the fishery.
Dont believe it is your fault ,it is not. Consider how little recreational get out there during the snapper spawn.With the prevailing westerly winds october through to Jan,very few recreational get out there. Not enough to make any difference.
And when we do in the few weather windows we pluck the odd fish out on our rod and line.We dont take the whole school.
Be very aware of what is going on. Another attempt to grind you down. Dont let them walk over you. Not this time.


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You tell them " cirrus' they are not listening to you and I ,they know best,yeah right,tui award.
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Originally posted by cirrus cirrus wrote:

Another group of small confederations trying to carve up the gulf to fit with their own future agendas.
For a long time there has been a subtle move to make recreational feel guilty that they even fish.
Looking at the maps there go all my fishing spots.
When will they ever confront the real issues facing the gulf. They know what they are but avoid dealing with them.
No marine reserve will ever contain the very mobile fish we fish for.
The snapper ,Kahawai ,kingfish ,trevelly ,J.D etc are mobile and travel with the seasons. No reserve net work will ever contain them.
These suggested exclusion zones constitute a lockout of recreational. Nothing less. So how long before you are out there scrounging your next meal. (will be their words),and someone comes along and says "You are in the wrong place my friend,you better leave."
How about looking at the well known migration routes into the gulf.
Out the back of Kawau,Colville channel and all the way to Tiri.
Ever year fish and snapper in particular are hammered in these areas as they seek to enter the gulf spawning grounds in tight schools . Trawl nets , danish seine ,and tens of thousands of longline hooks take their toll on schools of mature fish. No wonder the fishery has changed. How about making these areas exclusion zones between October and december. But they would not do that would they. Too close to a solution,would effect the wrong people. And what about the quoted 1 million plus fish ,mainly small snapper in sn1,crushed in trawl nets and tossed back to rot. They dont seem to want to look at that either. Ironic when they release 40 000 small snapper into Tasman bay,yet in the H.G management gives little or no regard to waste.
The exclusion zones are where individuals and families seek rest and meaningful time out. Places where a five year old will catch their first fish,among the rolling dolphins,diving birds ,or some quiet bay. The best natural history class room on earth.They take the catch home,share in a family caught meal. So important in a increasingly fragmented society. That will all be gone.
Dont let them make you feel guilty for catching a few fish.It is your right.
Just a couple of years back the infamous snapper cuts were upon us.
People got into their cars and drove across their cities and towns to attend the nearest meetings. Others got into their utes and drove down the country roads to attend theirs.
They believed they had something to offer. They believed in democracy, fairness ,and a shared fishery. After all they had been told about our shared fishery so many times before.
The MPI reps were welcoming ,pleasant and shared what they knew.
Not long after the meetings the decision came out. We took a cut in both our allowable take and another cut in increased size limit.
Commercial had no cuts. Their faith in the shared fishery was gone, their faith in democracy a little bit less. The great grinding  wheel of commerce ,and the parasitic elite had ground them down just that bit more. The towering but  but fragile wall  got a little  bit higher. They went away. They said nothing ,did not act . But they remember.
And now we see yet another attempt to blame us for the ills of the fishery.
Dont believe it is your fault ,it is not. Consider how little recreational get out there during the snapper spawn.With the prevailing westerly winds october through to Jan,very few recreational get out there. Not enough to make any difference.
And when we do in the few weather windows we pluck the odd fish out on our rod and line.We dont take the whole school.
Be very aware of what is going on. Another attempt to grind you down. Dont let them walk over you. Not this time.





+ 100 . You are bang on and "there" are hidden agendas. As John Key used to say. "Implement them slowly and in small stages/steps". This way the majority will not care or notice and by the time they wake up it will be too late.
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One of the scary things about all this is that the government, council etc are going to claim that this plan represents the agreed view of all the stakeholder groups. Really there are probably complete 'no way' scenarios in this plan from the point of view of most rec fishers, but the process used will give the government the ability to claim that this has all been agreed between the stakeholders. When they then implement the changes that we don't want, but delay or fail to implement the changes that we do want, they will just say that it was all in the well researched, heavily consulted, and agreed plan. To me this plan is pretty scary as it is a lot like National's promise at he last election about reducing commercial fishing pressure. a whole lot of spin to confuse the public into thinking they are getting something, whilst in reality they are just getting robbed some more.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 6:14pm
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Titanium
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Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Location: papakura
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Points: 12468
Fair enough John H,no need to defend your self,
At this stage the whole seachange has gone against what is good for the public and our rights, mpi ask for submissions and go against what the public submits,in the later case we would be our own worst enemy. out of 1000 fisherman 1 might be bothered to place a submission,1000 comms bet 500 would of submitted due to active lobbying and being properly informed on the issues not what one group thinks is best for all.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 6:21pm
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Titanium
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Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Location: Westhaven, Auck
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Points: 15052
John H - I can imagine the position you guys were in given the setup of this process. What I find really scary though is that the more you delve into the detail (reading it this avo) and try to interpret what it really means based on this governments history in relation to rec fishing, the scarier and scarier the report becomes. Whilst there is talk of good things like the shifting out of trawling etc (if I live long enough to ever see it), there is a whole lot of scary detail that based on our historic 'abuse' by the government would tends to suggest that rec fishing is in for a whole lot of bad news. Is that being overly pessimistic?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote mowerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 7:16pm
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Titanium
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Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Location: Papakura
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Points: 5681
3 years ago you were all warned about what was going to happen..Now I can sit back and watch all the knee jerk reactions..1 winner here...Commercial.fish farms...sorry and of course those reserves which will be dotted around all over the place...nek minute fishing license..don't say I didn't tell u so... my crystal ball was clear
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