Fish dumping less than 1 percent of prosecutions

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    Posted: 26 Aug 2016 at 8:25am
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http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/311844/few-fish-dumping-prosecutions,-figures-show
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2016 at 8:59am
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So typical of our current government. The public learns there is a problem. The government throw out some statistic to show that they are 'on to it'. 6 months later someone has gone through the official information act process to find out that the statistic thrown out to put the public off the case doesn't mean anything like it was represented to mean. Not an outright lie, but just more misrepresentation to deceive the public. I guess it must be a technique they learn the in the governments training course for new MP's and ministry employees. Bloody frustrating to realise how little you can trust your 'public servants' to be completely honest.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote hookerpuka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2016 at 9:02am
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^^ See Tagit theres your problem. You thought anyone tied up with GOVT was honest 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Derek F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2016 at 11:40am
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They bloody wonder why nobody trusts them.  They don't realize how much support they would have if they just told straight up truth instead of a whole lot of misleading spin. 
And the trouble is, if you don't risk anything, you risk even more...Erica Jong
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Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

So typical of our current government. The public learns there is a problem. The government throw out some statistic to show that they are 'on to it'. 6 months later someone has gone through the official information act process to find out that the statistic thrown out to put the public off the case doesn't mean anything like it was represented to mean. Not an outright lie, but just more misrepresentation to deceive the public. I guess it must be a technique they learn the in the governments training course for new MP's and ministry employees. Bloody frustrating to realise how little you can trust your 'public servants' to be completely honest.


"Lies, damned lies, and statistics".
Says it all.
Anyone that relies on statistics has something to hide, promote or does not really know the answer.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote hookerpuka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2016 at 1:29pm
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Sounds like 99% lies you reckon v8? 
 We all know stats are only as good as the information you punch in and that can be controlled
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Derek F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2016 at 9:59pm
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Love that quote....."torture statistics long enough and it will confess"
And the trouble is, if you don't risk anything, you risk even more...Erica Jong
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Clearly indicates fish dumping is condoned in N.Z ,regardless of what the law states.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote hookerpuka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2016 at 7:27am
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^^ yup, or is deemed to expensive to avoid. 
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One of the things I find interesting is they make a big point about the number of days observers recorded fishing activities as in below:
"The number of government observers on-board commercial fishing vessels has more than doubled in the past 10 years. Last year MPI officials conducted more than 1000 commercial vessel inspections, and MPI observers collectively recorded more than 11,500 days at sea."
 
However they also earlier in the article state that there are 1500 commercial fishing vessels in NZ. Now if we take the 11,500 observer days and divide that by 1500 boats we get 7.7 days of observation per boat for a whole year. Now if we assume the boat is at sea for say 200 days a year (365 days minus weekends and another 65 days for other various reasons) this leaves on average 192 days where they can basically do what they like.
 
I know that the realty is that a large number of boats (commercial cray boats, smaller one or two man operations etc) will never have a observer on and some boats will have very high observer rates (large trawlers etc)
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote jakepitsville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2016 at 7:52am
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I say every time we see someone dumping or fishing inside the allocated areas we just film it post it everywhere
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Greenpeace's main points are that:

1) Dumping prosecutions are less than 1% of all prosecutions.
2) Only one in five prosecutions are against commercial fishing operation.

Point 2:  How many recreational fishers are there compared to commercial fishers?  Would it be more than 1:5 ratio?  Almost certainly, the figure would be much, much higher.     

So - proportionally - commercial operators are being prosecuted more than recreational fishers.  So,  I have to ask, what proportional level of prosecution does Greenpeace deem correct?      
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CR  - A commercial boat might fish 250+ days per year, for 12hrs+ per day, whilst the average recreational fisherman might fish 5 days or less for 8 hours or so. So multiply your ratio by 50+ times to make it more accurate. Then allow that one sector is professionally trained and have zero excuses for mistakes, and that the other is full of people who don't even know what some rules mean or how to identify the fish they catch etc. 
Even after all that, you need to remember that the sum total fisheries damage from 100 recreational prosecutions is still probably less that the damage from a single commercial prosecution. Some guys getting pinged for have 5 undersized snapper is not in the same league as a trawler dumping tonnes of unwanted fish.

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Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

CR  - A commercial boat might fish 250+ days per year, for 12hrs+ per day, whilst the average recreational fisherman might fish 5 days or less for 8 hours or so. So multiply your ratio by 50+ times to make it more accurate. Then allow that one sector is professionally trained and have zero excuses for mistakes, and that the other is full of people who don't even know what some rules mean or how to identify the fish they catch etc. 
Even after all that, you need to remember that the sum total fisheries damage from 100 recreational prosecutions is still probably less that the damage from a single commercial prosecution. Some guys getting pinged for have 5 undersized snapper is not in the same league as a trawler dumping tonnes of unwanted fish.


Dead right...previous post was very unrealistic
And the trouble is, if you don't risk anything, you risk even more...Erica Jong
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Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

CR  - A commercial boat might fish 250+ days per year, for 12hrs+ per day, whilst the average recreational fisherman might fish 5 days or less for 8 hours or so. So multiply your ratio by 50+ times to make it more accurate. Then allow that one sector is professionally trained and have zero excuses for mistakes, and that the other is full of people who don't even know what some rules mean or how to identify the fish they catch etc. 
Even after all that, you need to remember that the sum total fisheries damage from 100 recreational prosecutions is still probably less that the damage from a single commercial prosecution. Some guys getting pinged for have 5 undersized snapper is not in the same league as a trawler dumping tonnes of unwanted fish.



Or destroying the sea bed/feed grounds with their trawling gear. Then throw in the juvenile mortality with each trawl.
Prosecuting the rec fisher with the five undersize fish seems a bit pedantic as well as a bit of a feel good stocking filler.
How many rec prosecutions would it take to equal one trawl with the damage and wastage involved?
I am not saying do not do it, however CR is not comparing apples with apples.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Choirs Reef Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 8:20pm
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Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

CR  - A commercial boat might fish 250+ days per year, for 12hrs+ per day, whilst the average recreational fisherman might fish 5 days or less for 8 hours or so. So multiply your ratio by 50+ times to make it more accurate. 

On any given day out on the water, there are a vast amount more recreational fishing vessels on the water than there are commercial vessels.  

Greenpeace points to this 5:1 prosecution ratio as being indicative that commercial fishers are being given a free pass of sorts.  I suggest that the 5:1 ratio is probably quite "fair" given the proportion of reccys to comms - even when you take into account fishing effort.

What kind of ratio would you suggest is "fair"? 

  
Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

Even after all that, you need to remember that the sum total fisheries damage from 100 recreational prosecutions is still probably less that the damage from a single commercial prosecution. Some guys getting pinged for have 5 undersized snapper is not in the same league as a trawler dumping tonnes of unwanted fish.

Not quite sure what your point is here?  Yes, acknowledge that commercials have greater potential for damage but don't see the link to the ratio that Greenpeace is banging on about.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote part-timer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 9:22pm
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