Kermadecs - No Compensation

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    Posted: 24 Jul 2016 at 6:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2016 at 7:05pm
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The big question for is,Are the Kermadecs a traditioal fishing ground for maori and do they still fish there?   If no not a traditional ground then no compensation but if they are still activly fishing in a non commercial practice,then yes some form of compensation would be required.Not available to any commercial operation that has been shut down.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Capt Asparagus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2016 at 9:33pm
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Nope, no way. Not unless they are going to compensate all the other commercial fishing operations who fish out there.
It's going into a Marine reserve for Petes sake.....no, just no. No compensation.
It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote eynon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2016 at 12:37am
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The Kermadec Islands /kərˈmædɛk/ are a subtropical island arc in the South Pacific Ocean 800–1,000 km (500–620 mi) northeast of New Zealand's North Island, and a similar distance southwest of Tonga. The islands are part of New Zealand, 33 km2 (12.7 sq mi) in total area and nowadays uninhabited, except for the permanently manned Raoul Island Station, the northernmost outpost of New Zealand.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Marligator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2016 at 6:59am
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CA - This is a difficult one. I liken the compensation side of things as being similar to this situation (I may be totally wrong here). You used to have a block of land at Matamata you grew Asparagus on however you decided that you had had a enough of that and just left the land fallow. After several years of the land being left fallow and not being used for anything the government decides that seeing as you are not using the land you do not need it and takes it away from you and makes it a national park, but offers you no compensation, just a compulsory acquisition. How would you feel about that. 
In respect to the quota for the Kermadec area from what I can gather these fisheries are not depleted from overfishing, so the taking of the quota is not being done for fisheries management purposes but just to create a Marine Reserve (note I have no problems with the area being made a marine reserve). So there asset is just being taken away from them with no compensation. The same argument could be used for any land that is sitting there doing nothing. I see this quota as the same as a property developer who is land banking for the future.
 
Compensation should be paid to all the quota owners not just Maori in this case.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Kevin.S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2016 at 8:12am
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Are they actually taking quota?  I thought they were just limiting areas that could be fished, that's very different.  

The odd thing is that they are not compensating anyone because no fishing goes on up there, but if no one is fishing there what difference will making it a marine reserve make?  Do they think someone may fish there in the future once they have destroyed the other fisheries, or was it just done to try and make NZ look more "green" in the eyes of the world?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Capt Asparagus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2016 at 9:53am
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I don't think that's quite the right analogy there Marlingator, it is more like the govt declaring a block of unused, untitled native bush to be a national park with no hunting allowed, even though no one hunted there at all anyhow.
No one was fishing the kermadecs area apart from maybe some tuna longliners, who can just as easily fish outside the reserve area anyhow, otherwise you would have heard Sanfords et al squealing as well, but they weren't, this compensation claim from Maori interests was just a hopeful grab at some free government money.
It's not a bad idea though, it shuts out a huge area from the tuna chasing seiners etc from hunting all the yellowfin before they reach us. As for the bottom fish up there, well, no one was really targeting then anyhow, as the 12nm areas around all the islands up there have been marine reserves for a decade of two now anyhow, they have just connected up the dots.
Oh, and no, the kermadecs area was not a traditional Maori fishing ground, it is hundreds of kms north of nz, Maori had no need nor ability to go up there to fish, and no commercial boats fish up there either.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2016 at 10:06am
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About time N.Z got away from the compensation mentality and entered the real world.
Need to live in the here and now.
Dinosaurs didnt get compensation

 And nor Auckland city get any compensation from Exxon Mobil for cleanup costs just because some twit didnt write this into the contract 50 years ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Marligator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2016 at 10:23am
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CA there used to be a few commercial boats that would go up there chasing hapuka, bass etc on the reefs outside the existing 12 mile reserve and they would have had quota for that area. If it was only longlining for tuna etc which there is no quota for anyway then it would not be a problem. Also these boats from what I remember were not connected to any of the big companies so the big companies have no reason to be squealing about this.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Capt Asparagus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2016 at 10:35am
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Yeah, I know about the boats that went up there for the grouper....that's why the reserves were put around the islans, as the potato cod up there were so easy to catch. But talking to a couple of guys who went up there, by the time they took into account all the issues around travelling time, distance, increases in fuel etc, it wasn't really worth the trouble, so they knocked off ages back.
It was certainly no traditional Maori tribal fishery. But by making the whole area a reserve, now the longliners cannot fish there either, nor any seiners or anything.
I think nz has missed a bit of a trick here though. I think they:-"they" being someone with pots of money to throw away, lol, should put in a small marina , fuel store, accoms, etc on Raoul, and turn it into a long-range rec fishing destination. If not Raoul, then one of the more southerly islands, open up a bit more of a wahoo/tropical species target range for nz big game long range boats.
Won't happen now of course, but I for one would have loved to go up there.....
It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Marligator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2016 at 10:46am
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CA there was a boat that was looking into doing long range charters up there, it was a NZ Research vessel that went up there regularly and they were looking at taking a dozen or so fishers up each time to help pay for costs. One of the guys on here (Jig Master) went up on a exploratory trip with them a year or two ago. You were right the reason for setting up the initial 12 mile marine reserve was to protect the Spotted Groper which were common in the shallows. This extension out to 200 miles has nothing to do with protecting them it is about appeasing the Greenies.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Capt Asparagus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2016 at 11:43am
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I certainly agree to it being about the greenies. The huge area where there was no fishing anyhow seems a little pointless, but....if it protects tuna enough that we get a few more down our way in the summer....can't say I mind! 😊
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote herby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2016 at 1:26pm
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Spotty blacks are protected NZ wide anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Capt Asparagus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2016 at 2:18pm
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Weren't they having issues with them getting caught and cleaned out in the kerms, Herby? Or was it just normal hapuku that were so prolific around the Raoul anchorage? I thought they were big spotteds (or potato cod?) that doc was anxious to protect?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2016 at 3:58pm
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Commercial fishing companies wanting compensation. They really do want every last fish dont they.! We should all rejoice at reserves like this.
The world badly needs reserves like this covering large areas.

Surely the fish that commercial have already taken from the area should be their compensation. Nothing more is needed.

But. If there are to be expensive legal battles over compensation ,defended of course by the tax payer then there is only one solution.

Sell the Kermadecs to the Chinese. They would be glad of the fish and could also build a military airport there.

Recently read about the Dunning -Kruger effect. The Dunning -Kruger effect is basically being too stupid to know how stupid you are.
Seems to be the rational explanation in this case.

P.S. Suspect that many of our very largest Kingfish move into our waters from this region.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Capt Asparagus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2016 at 4:35pm
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I wouldn't think there would be much migration from the kermadecs to nz for kingies mate.....it is a bloody long way to go for a not very pelagic fish.
We are supposed to...very very seldom, get the big Kermadec kahawai down ere in NZ, haven't hard of them for ages though, but we are talking kahawai in the 10 kg range.....
It is only my overwhelming natural humility that mars my perfection.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote herby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2016 at 6:40pm
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I saw some kermadec kahawai in January this year, and I got photos of them with normal kahawai CA. 
I suspect that this reserve is more of a futureproofing move than anything else. Good job too. 
No, Cirrus. Commercial fishers do not want every last fish, how would they make a living after they've caught the last one? Ya know that effect you were talking about......Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2016 at 9:19am
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OK Herby-i concede you are correct. Not every last fish,no one is that good at the game. How about most fishSmile Or even noticeable numbers of fish.

Was a little miffed by commercial throwing a spanner in the works by talking compensation. It is surely in everyones interest to have vast areas of ocean un fished . Or thats what i would have thought.

Sometimes wonder if some of the Fresh Swordfish steaks that are readily available in Sydney fish shops come from this area.?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2016 at 9:34am
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see John Not all commercial are bad buggers


Thanks Paul, yes those figures from the Simmons report are off the planet but there was a lot of wastage in the 70's & early 80's but i think a lot of what he was referring to was deep water boats in the south island. We run a very Professional operation and we waste nothing, we have quota cover for everthing we catch. We have satellite monitor on our boat now and it is switched on 24/7 even when we're in port for our own protection. Paul we have far to much to lose to be cowboys and contrary to what a lot lot of recriational fishers may think, we have the greatest respect for our resource. My son will take over the fishing business one day and i also 2 other children and seven grandchildren that like myself enjoy recreational fishing too. I genuinely believe we need to protect our fishing resources both for commercial and recreational . Kind regards Arch
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2016 at 9:47am
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Agree Paul ,not all commercial are bad as you say. Those i have on rare occasions been out fishing  with are very careful and aware of the environment they fish. But then again if they if they wernt like that i wouldnt have known them.

But the fact remains ,one way or the other that when we see closures such as southern scallops ,or Toheroa or some bio mass down to 6% then one has to wonder.

But for now the illusion remains (,and that includes free recreational fishing) and will remain as long as it is profitable .

But when the music stops ,the lights are switched on,and the curtains are drawn the audience will find them selves staring at a solid brick wall.
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