Motorway Tolls within 3 years

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    Posted: 21 Jun 2016 at 8:51pm
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A good funding idea for our roads.
An extra cost for Aucklanders who use the roads.
Will it really have the desired affect?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/81306110/Tolling-will-be-needed-on-Aucklands-motorways-to-combat-congestion-report
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote brmbrm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2016 at 9:50pm
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This is bollocks.  There should first be some semi-decent public transport - bus/rail. And some park-and-ride facility. Currently its crap: I am 40 minute walk from the busway station, if i want to drive and park I have to get there by 7:10.  So I drive in to work earlier.

Give me the option of some public transport please
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2016 at 10:36pm
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In simple terms, this is a tax on Aucklanders so that the government can prop up their finances with massive immigration, most of which settles in Auckland causing the deterioration of Aucklands infrastructure setups and livability. Last report I read had our economic growth equal to our rate of immigration i.e no immigration, no economic growth. Next time the government rattles on about 'their' economic performance just remember that Aucklanders are paying for it today in both cash and a deteriorating city, but downstream we will all pay the cost of having the rate of immigration hugely exceed the rate of assimilation. The simplest and laziest way for our government to make themselves look good today when they know the real issues will only show up a couple of terms later.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2016 at 10:57pm
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Of course having tolls to improve traffic congestion will not solve traffic congestion if there is no alternative. It will just mean capital extraction from many who can barely afford it. They assume no one will notice that.
The new system of capitalism for the powerless and socialism for the powerful,under which the powerless are persecuted and the powerful given billions in public subsidies is rarely identified..

In the case of Aucklands rapid growth terms like modernisation are the favored expression.
And it seems of little interest to anyone in power ,that while another couple are forced to move into a car to live,on the other side of town Expensive French Champagne is poured to celebrate the $200,000  profit on a house bought just 12 months before for the sole purpose of capital gain.
And that historic concept of democracy has become just another word to be used when suited.
AS many through the ages have found the vote was only valuable if peoples lives were improved.
Currently we are going through the biggest transfer of wealth in the history of the world. From the poor to the wealthy. And none of it will be returned, despite its return being the only solution to poverty and homeless on a global scale.
Also up for grabs is the pension ,its affordability already being discussed. Means testing will follow the tolls.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2016 at 2:47am
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If the Aussies can do we can?toll roads capital gains tax pension means test  and boat rego + fishing licence!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Barrie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2016 at 6:25am
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the train service is very good in West Auckland and a hell of a lot cheaper. Those that dont live close still have the problem of getting there but most have parking within a reasonable distance.
My guys spend an extra hour on the roads compared to 10 years ago which means that we (service tradesmen) have to charge a little more per job to allow for the travel. End story is we do less work but overheads are greater.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Capt Asparagus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2016 at 9:41am
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Road, rail and infrastructure all cost, whether upgrading or building new. Money for that has to come from somewhere, a road toll for "congestion" is just a revenue gathering exercise to help pay for the new rail loop thing.
The congestion on the motorway would be vastly reduced if a decent multi lane bypass was built, so that all north-south traffic could avoid route 1 thru the middle of the town, and if the port could be moved somewhere better....like Tauranga.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kevin.S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2016 at 10:02am
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A lot of good points being raised here.  Simple fact is that for many years Auckland is buggered, you can't put right years of under investment in a short time.  Road tolls will undoubtedly be part of the solution, but won't work until there is an alternative for people to use.  
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote SaltyC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2016 at 11:41am
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Actually Kevin, they won't work at all. Toll roads are a revenue raising or construction financing measure not a way to reduce congestion on existing road systems. 

If you toll an existing motorway then you will force traffic onto suburban streets that bypass that toll road, you will not reduce overall traffic.

If you use tolls as a way to build a road that wouldn't otherwise get built you are allowing for increased traffic flow not trying to reduce it.

Road tolls will not force people onto public transport even when it does exist.

What will get people onto public transport is convenience, availability and affordability and there is no sign of public transport that meets any of those criteria eventuatiing across Auckland as a whole any time soon.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2016 at 2:55pm
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Sydney has a top class transport system. Light rail,underground rail,buses & ferries. All easily accessible.
It also has toll roads.
Despite all that it also has traffic congestion at times.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote OneWayTraffic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2016 at 3:25pm
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I would argue that road tolls are a fairer way to extract payment for Auckland roads than extra tax levied on say Southland farmers. If the money is offset by cheaper and better public transport it's a win-win. 

In Seoul (city of 10million plus) You can use public transport to get all around town for no more than $2 to go as far as you need. 

Auckland is overcrowded. Despite this I still hear from time to time of employers in the provinces moving their business to Auckland when they'd be better to do the opposite. 

The real problems will be when teachers, nurses, police officers etc can no longer afford to live there. Close to that point now. Despite there being lots of good schools in Auckland I wouldn't mind teaching at I will never consider it thanks to the cost of housing, never mind the roads.

I can teach in Canterbury for the same money and buy a new house in Rangiora for $350-400k. Just an example. There is no extra payment for living in Auckland, and schools can't offer much in the way of incentives.




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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Barrie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2016 at 4:16pm
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Originally posted by OneWayTraffic OneWayTraffic wrote:

I would argue that road tolls are a fairer way to extract payment for Auckland roads than extra tax levied on say Southland farmers. If the money is offset by cheaper and better public transport it's a win-win. 


Personally I think a combination of both is fair. In Auckland and other centers, there is the main ways of exporting the farmers goods (air and sea) Most goods come in through the ports and are trucked out of town.
A road tax and petrol tax pays for this.
20 years ago we worked out the amount of time it would take to build 10kms of road in the Coromandel by using just the petrol tax and from memory we worked out that they would be able to put in 10km every 25 years. It would be similar up and down the country with less populated areas taking even more time.
If Auckland was to keep all taxes collected, we probably wouldnt have a problem but that would also mean Christchurch, Dunedin, Wellington, Hamilton and Tauranga would have to keep their tax takes.
The smaller areas would simply dry up and die.
I have no problem paying (through my taxes) for infrastructure for areas outside of where I live as I know we all share the benefits.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2016 at 4:39pm
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Tolls for Auckland?already have,northern gateway,work out the cost and its cheaper than going orewa via wairewa.
maybe have tolls if you use exits between Mt wellington and St lukes or Akoranga dr. north/south or east/west traffic free? ie going from say Pt Chev to Howick free       Otahuhu to Takapuna free

Should of kept tolls on the Harbour bridge and we would be well advanced with funding by now.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Catchelot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2016 at 4:56pm
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Originally posted by pjc pjc wrote:

Should of kept tolls on the Harbour bridge and we would be well advanced with funding by now.

Probably would also have had a second harbour crossing by now also PaulOuch
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2016 at 6:18pm
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Question needs to be asked. Why grow Auckland at all.

What are the economic ,social and other advantages or disadvantages.?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2016 at 6:45pm
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unfortunatly bussinesses sees Auckland as the bussiness hub,why?cheaper to export?bigger population to choose a workforce and to pay a lower wage?The port and rail ?  Look at Whangarei deep port no container terminal,little rail volume,Tauranga has port and rail.set up in Hmilton still got to ship by road/rail to Auckland/tauranga.  Not sure what Wellingtons ports like then the big jump to Lyllton port.  My opionon only though John.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Barrie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2016 at 6:58pm
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Originally posted by cirrus cirrus wrote:

Question needs to be asked. Why grow Auckland at all.

What are the economic ,social and other advantages or disadvantages.?

The size of Auckland grows its self
Auckland isnt paying people to come, they simply want to come here

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote letsgetem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2016 at 5:08pm
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Massive immigration is the main reason for the major deterioration in living standards in Auckland. The National government has promoted this, to make it look as if its policies have brought about "economic growth". Well, its policies have. But, this "growth" is at the expense of a lower standard of living, in terrible traffic congestion and grossly over-priced housing. It is obvious these problems wont get better, unless government stops immigration.
Government has had plenty of warning, and has done...nothing!!! They are going to have to go. National supporters need to ask themselves the hard question ...do they like the traffic congestion? If not, what are they going to do about it. 
 
Having got that off my chest - back to the subject. I am in favour of user-pays; including charges for using roads. Free things never result in wise use. But to get out of the traffic congestion mess - the money needs to be used for fixing the problem. ie paying for public transport expansion, paying for roading expansion; and enlightened policy to reduce Aucklands growth. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2016 at 11:19pm
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Would tolls solve the 3hr trip from Wellsford to Manukau city at 7.30am last Thursday?no it wont. Somehow need to find out why every car on the northern motorway only has 1 person heading to the CBD area.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 8:26am
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Lets say it is us who are in 'control' of the Auckland transport systems.
It is outdated, over crowded, a lot of good train/ bus failities but also a lot of holes where its bad to.
Add to that the large new areas  like pokeno , out west and further nth have now created congestion 20 miles plus before the city.
You know u have to get ppl where possible onto the public transport that already exists...but no matter what they dont do so. a mind set.
Get that going the revenues from that can expand the network further.. but at this point the finances doesnt exist and the mind set will not use it.
Bit of a catch 22 situation.
So how would we do it?
make the cost of using congested roads not worth it.. sort of like put up the price (tax) of cigarettes method?  put to present to the public that way would not work at all... hell the cigarette smokers jumped up and down..
.but presented that the tax/ toll would go towards better roads (that we already know if built will be just as congested by the time they are built) may get a bit of support.
Or present to upgrade public transport... which given track record over the last 30 yrs will not be popular either.
So here we are, the people who have to sort this mess.. know the only way is public transport, havnt the money, and what ever we do, wil not be popular and will not work because of a mind set.
Now that has to be the worst 5h1t job ever.

What would I do thenIF to make work
lie... or spin it..
Long term sell the idea of tolls, put forward they are for new rods  and also for public transport... and draw it out over 10 yrs....and in the mean time throw a few addons/ widening just to be seen to be doing something.
Is that not what is has been happening over the last 10 yrs?
But the main objective is to get over the car mindset....tolls may help... but the ONLY real way is to actually grid lock the road system...let get so over crowded that those who do have alternative public transport WILL bloody use it cause they cant get to work at all.
And how to speed up the grid lock?
Simple
lets narrow the roads, remove parking?
Lets see.. would this work?
Put no parking lines down arterial and minor roads and to get way with this have the excuse of putting in cycle lanes (that ) know will either not be used or at most stuff all... car mind set)
And this will also take way much of the double land stacking at intersections... making congestion ques spread back for miles... over night.
OH and lets also throw in a few lanes just for buses...on the motorways at intersections....a few min of 2 or 3 people in  car lanes too.

And its worked/ working...

Funny is that not what has been happening over the last few yrs, and till is.. right in front of us?  Like not seeing the forest because of the trees?

Do you really think those in control would just come out and say

 "OK guys this is how we will solve it. Speed up congestion, till actually grid locks... force those ppl who have public transport to have NO alternative to use it...then with profits from that, start to expand that system.... and hopefully the road system will remain grid locked enough for the mind set to chance as new areas are added"

It just would not have a show in hell of flying right? it would need very carefully hidden in spin
but lets be honest, stand back take a few moments, take a big breath, look at it objectively... yep it would work, even if we dont like it right?

That is exactly what they have been doing  and that is what at the end of the day will work, and historically worked around the world .

You may also note that the unitary plan is designed to stuff more people around the current public system routes that do work.....train and bus.
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