2M+ Beam Pontoon 14-15ft?

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    Posted: 03 Oct 2015 at 5:09pm
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It seems all the brands want to stick with 1.75ish m beams. Which to me is a small beam for a 14ft boat, old school. Which also means a tiny internal beam, barely big enough for 1, 2 max to fish comfortably. Even my last RIB of 14ft had 2.1m beam.

And before those that still believe pontoons equal stability, you are wrong. Its beam and hull shape. Its the pontoon acting as a gull wing, almost tri hull if you like that gives the pontoon boat the stability.

But id really like some more internal room in a pontoon boat. The 435 aqualine lists 2mish beam, but i dont like their anchoring layout, or lack of. Im looking at cuddy cabs.

The blackdog cats are the best but they are out of my price range for equivalent size.

If I had the coin id step up to an f16 or similar but I just dont.

Any wide beam pontoon allys exist?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Grampa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2015 at 8:31pm
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"And before those that still believe pontoons equal stability, you are wrong. Its beam and hull shape. Its the pontoon acting as a gull wing, almost tri hull if you like that gives the pontoon boat the stability."

I understand the concept of the pontoon acting as a gullwing. 

Does the same apply in this situation. 
More than once when launching from the beach with the 1410 stabi and frewza we have taken waves over the back filling the boat with water. Although everything is floating just open the scuppers and drive off no issues. Does the fact the air is trapped in the pontoon enhance the bouncy over 2 x 12.5cm gullwings?  
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MacSkipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2015 at 9:19pm
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Originally posted by FizFisho FizFisho wrote:

It seems all the brands want to stick with 1.75ish m beams. Which to me is a small beam for a 14ft boat, old school. Which also means a tiny internal beam, barely big enough for 1, 2 max to fish comfortably. Even my last RIB of 14ft had 2.1m beam.

And before those that still believe pontoons equal stability, you are wrong. Its beam and hull shape. Its the pontoon acting as a gull wing, almost tri hull if you like that gives the pontoon boat the stability.

But id really like some more internal room in a pontoon boat. The 435 aqualine lists 2mish beam, but i dont like their anchoring layout, or lack of. Im looking at cuddy cabs.

The blackdog cats are the best but they are out of my price range for equivalent size.

If I had the coin id step up to an f16 or similar but I just dont.

Any wide beam pontoon allys exist?
I thought my plastic Mac 420 Fisherman was nice and beamy.  Had a look on Mac Boats website indicates a 1.7M internal beam for my model.
Good fishing trip nothing breaks, great trip catch fish.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote FizFisho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2015 at 9:38pm
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of course a swamped pontoon boats has reserve bouyancy, the bouyancy in the pontoons and underfloor perhaps. and that may aid in stability if swamped in rolling seas from capsizing. but it plays no part in stability at rest in any "normal" boating situations. imagine if you adding 15cm to each side of the external pontoon and you could put your feet all the way to edge, in effect giving you maybe 90cm more internal beam and having the same stability.

i think outside the mono hull like a c430 beams of 2-2.1m are rare and very hard to find in hard pontoon boats, which is a shame, not just for extreme stability but for actually not being cramped for space.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote OneWayTraffic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2015 at 7:46am
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Stability when swamped is the main benefit of pontoons/inflatable tubes. Underfloor floatation/decks above waterline need to be matched with a very fast method to get water off the boat. 
 
The gullwing provides stability in other boats as well. Smartwaves have a double skin gullwing design which effectively provides stability, underfloor and pontoon flotation

Pangas have none of that but have large amounts of underfloor combined with 4 two inch scuppers out the (low) sides make it hard to get enough water in the boat to capsize it. I've also seen glass over ply designs with the same benefits. 


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote letsgetem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2015 at 9:01am
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The Maverick 450 (two hulls) - is very wide, at 2275. Relatively expensive at $29,500 plus motor, say total about $42,000 with a 50hp 4 stroke. Compared to about $33,000 for a F16. I guess any boat that's wider is going to cost more.
How about going on a trial ride in a VMG. I would like to do that.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote OneWayTraffic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2015 at 9:14am
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Those VMGs look very much like my Smartwave. Very pronounced reverse chine.

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yes the smartaves are probably the only design similar to a pontoon similar to a vmg. would love a ride even on the 4.2. the smaller ones gunwales seem a bit low. i like really high gunwales. i also dont like outboard cut outs. either a backwash or a pod for me.

the vmg on trademe is a 5.7m HT but only has 70hp on it............

still they are the kind of boat im referring to, but not quite as the outers are actually acting more like a tri than a simple gull wing if that makes sense, like pontoons do. although some of the pontoons now seem to be downturned.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Grampa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2015 at 10:15am
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I guess I want to explore the the gullwing comment further.
My next question relates to load weight.
If the pontoon boat only gets it's stability from the gullwing isn't swamping a boat with water simply adding weight, and therefore does the reverse buoyancy enable a pontoon boat to handle heaver loads and remain stable? So is it a pontoon acting as a pontoon that gives it stability and buoyancy? Aided by the gullwing hull.
If the pontoon rolls to one side a different part of the air filled pontoon contacts the water not the case with a gull wing without pontoon?

I will add if launching and retrieving off the beach taking water over the back is part of normal boating.

I think making the hull so much wider would make the ride harder in such a short hull? 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote OneWayTraffic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2015 at 2:35pm
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Maybe this will help. FWIW I teach Maths and Physics, and boat bouyancy is all Year 12 Physics.

Basically there are two forces at play here. 

One is the downwards force due to Gravity, which I will for now assume is at the center of the boat.

The other force is the upwards force due to submerged parts of the hull displacing water. The water wants to return to a level position and pushes the boat upwards. The more hull under the water, the bigger that push. Fig a). The shape of the hull above water can not affect this at all. It is only the amount and location of hull underwater that matters. There is no exception to this. 

In Fig b) you can see what happens when the boat tips. Since more hull on one side is underwater that tends to push that side upwards, while the other side has less hull underwater and hence less push. So the sum of the two is that the boat wishes to return to level. The more the boat tips the bigger that force.

 Note that generally a wider beam allows the hull to be further away from the middle, which tends to increase leverage, and hence righting moment. 

In Fig c) and d) you can see the design effect of gullwings, or cat pontoons. The hull shape puts more of the edge of the boat underwater in a tip, which increases righting moment for any given degree of  rotation, and hence gives increased stability. 

Should the boat become swamped, then the Physics changes not at all. The righting force is still due to the hull underwater, but the force due to Gravity is much higher, and also placed higher in the boat. Since the water is free to move when the boat tilts, it tends to magnify any boat roll and if the centre of gravity goes close enough to the edge of the boat then a capsize will follow. 

The location of internal buoyancy compartments is now crucial. Since pontoon boats have those compartments around the edge of the boat, they tend to provide stability when flooded, as water can
not now get close enough to the outside of the boat to capsize. A conventional underfloor compartment here can actually destabilize the boat as the water is high up and can move the center of gravity past the centre of buoyancy. If that happens the boat will capsize. 

So the stability of Stabi type hulls is in two forms. One is the shape of the hull and 99% of the time that is all that matters. The other is the location of the sealed compartments and that is only useful in a swamping. 









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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote OneWayTraffic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2015 at 2:40pm
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A simpler way to see it is imagine what would happen if we cut the tops off the pontoons. The boat would not become less stable in normal use. But its stability in a swamping would be much decreased. When designing boats it is recommended that as much as possible floatation be placed high up and near the edges of the boat. 




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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote out2sea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2015 at 4:07pm
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Sorry it may have been written in here already but ill just add what I can from 6 weeks of naval architecture. The stability comes from the shape of the hull in the water, buoyancy comes from the water displaced by the hull.

 The only time when sealed pontoons will make a difference is when the boat is flooded and the pontoons displace their volume of water creating the added buoyancy.

The stability in a pontoon boat obviously comes from the large gull wing style hull they create, although that doesn't equate to a great ride. so there are compromises between stability and ride in every boat. 

you could quite easily have a standard mono hull that is more stable than a pontoon boat but it would likely have greater beam or a flatter 'v' which in turn would create a harder or harsher ride and change the boats handling characteristics. So most boats are built for a best of both worlds scenario which does mean they seem to follow a hull length to width ratio, I guess that is why most boats of a similar length have a similar beam.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote FizFisho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2015 at 7:04pm
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yep. or a gull wing, not a down turn, but a flattening out both sides of the stern deadrise or in fact a completely flat stern (old school)

thats why at 4m the FC boats with a 2.01m beam and a gull wing rear are likely more stable than a 14ft stabi or frewza at 1.7m.

people will say, but stand on my sides and it doesnt move, well try standing another 20 cm and thats where the FC boats gunnel would be. the majority of the time people are standing in very small internal beams giving and ultra stability feel.

pontoons should be sold on safetly not stability imo. they float when swamped and are les likely to roll if swamped. now if you are taking your family out in those conditions, that would raise a question for me first. of course we all get caught out by mother nature so the pontoons have that safety for the inexperienced and one in a... time the weather changes.

interestingly the 4.3m kiwikraft is aqua is the only pontoon i can find with a semi large beam.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote sarge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2015 at 8:46pm
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Osprey have same beam as Kiwikraft in that size. 1.95m.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote OneWayTraffic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2015 at 10:24pm
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Add Mac 420 to the list. 2.2m beam.

And the Smartwave 4200 has a 1.96m beam and is for all intents and purposes a pontoon with a gullwing.


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Originally posted by OneWayTraffic OneWayTraffic wrote:


In Fig b) you can see what happens when the boat tips. Since more hull on one side is underwater that tends to push that side upwards, while the other side has less hull underwater and hence less push. So the sum of the two is that the boat wishes to return to level. The more the boat tips the bigger that force.

 Note that generally a wider beam allows the hull to be further away from the middle, which tends to increase leverage, and hence righting moment. 

All very true OWT, and a good explanation but a lot of people don't realise that stability is a double edged sword: the same force that is trying to right the boat if one side is further immersed is the same force that is making the boat roll if a wave comes along and rides up one side.  As in the above explanation , " the boat wishes to return to level", even though  "level" may be a wave face at a 45 degree angle!!








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Originally posted by out2sea out2sea wrote:

Sorry it may have been written in here already but ill just add what I can from 6 weeks of naval architecture. The stability comes from the shape of the hull in the water, buoyancy comes from the water displaced by the hull.

 The only time when sealed pontoons will make a difference is when the boat is flooded and the pontoons displace their volume of water creating the added buoyancy.

The stability in a pontoon boat obviously comes from the large gull wing style hull they create, although that doesn't equate to a great ride. so there are compromises between stability and ride in every boat. 

you could quite easily have a standard mono hull that is more stable than a pontoon boat but it would likely have greater beam or a flatter 'v' which in turn would create a harder or harsher ride and change the boats handling characteristics. So most boats are built for a best of both worlds scenario which does mean they seem to follow a hull length to width ratio, I guess that is why most boats of a similar length have a similar beam.
Thankyou  out2sea  , well put . Have to admit I am guilty of sitting back and watching this debate pan out in several post's. Couldn't be bothered getting into it to be honest. Pretty much nail smacked on the head right there.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Joker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2015 at 11:07pm
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Originally posted by FizFisho FizFisho wrote:

It seems all the brands want to stick with 1.75ish m beams. Which to me is a small beam for a 14ft boat, old school. Which also means a tiny internal beam, barely big enough for 1, 2 max to fish comfortably. Even my last RIB of 14ft had 2.1m beam.

And before those that still believe pontoons equal stability, you are wrong. Its beam and hull shape. Its the pontoon acting as a gull wing, almost tri hull if you like that gives the pontoon boat the stability.

But id really like some more internal room in a pontoon boat. The 435 aqualine lists 2mish beam, but i dont like their anchoring layout, or lack of. Im looking at cuddy cabs.

The blackdog cats are the best but they are out of my price range for equivalent size.

If I had the coin id step up to an f16 or similar but I just dont.

Any wide beam pontoon allys exist?
IMHO you are right about the beam, volume, extended chines and buoyancy of the basic hull that make a good sea worthy boat. The four points of stability that extended chines give cannot be underestimated. This is not only found in pontoon boats but in the FC range of boats (my current boat a FC500 C/C) with lots of internal space too.
A lot of unfashionable  boats have superior beam and bow volume to handle better than 2 foot Rangi channel chop - serious out to sea swells need volume up front to handle the swells, often off the west coast from Manukau we always get SW swells with a big N swell side on over the bar to contend with.
 
I go with max beam, volume up front and stability four points.
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One way traffic - I checked Mac Boats website and internal beam of Mac 420 is 1.7M as 0.5M is pontoon which is fizfishos point - though I'd rather have the Pontoons and it feels wide enough to me.
Good fishing trip nothing breaks, great trip catch fish.
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Originally posted by Joker Joker wrote:

IMHO you are right about the beam, volume, extended chines and buoyancy of the basic hull that make a good sea worthy boat. The four points of stability that extended chines give cannot be underestimated. This is not only found in pontoon boats but in the FC range of boats (my current boat a FC500 C/C) with lots of internal space too.
A lot of unfashionable  boats have superior beam and bow volume to handle better than 2 foot Rangi channel chop - serious out to sea swells need volume up front to handle the swells, often off the west coast from Manukau we always get SW swells with a big N swell side on over the bar to contend with.
 
I go with max beam, volume up front and stability four points.
Yes - that's why I like my Mac 420Thumbs Up and its good in that damn Rangitoto channel to - though launching at Takapuna is a pain when its choppy!
Good fishing trip nothing breaks, great trip catch fish.
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