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Firearms Reforms-Law abiding shooters need support

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    Posted: 29 Mar 2019 at 9:32pm
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Hi all, 

Hi team!
 

We have been waiting to send out this email. We wanted the rapidly changing situation to become clearer.

As you will know, a terrorist stuck in Christchurch using a variety of firearms. His manifesto said that he chose guns as his weapon only because it would give the most media attention.

Within hours of this horror the Prime Minister announced changes to our gun laws.

The Police Union told shooters to stay out of it. The Prime Minister immediately seconded this thought and the media ran with the narrative that the 'Gun lobby' must not get a chance to 'dilute' the proposed changes. Whatever they may be.

The interviewer from the 'AM Show' can even be heard cooing "Excellent" in a quiet voice when a National MP gave her the answer that she wanted here.

The propaganda was total. The grieving public were sold a lie. The gun laws had to change NOW. There was simply no reason for having such rifles.

Then came the stunts.

A hero handed in the rifle that he now deemed too dangerous. The media left out the part where he was a Green Party candidate who hates guns. The Prime Minister immediately congratulated "All the shooters handing in guns".

"All" being just him.

Then - only days after the tragedy - Jacinda Adern announces the first law change with zero notice.

An order in council commanded the following:

No photo description available.

No consultation. Just a dirty back room deal with God knows who getting their way.

As this was announced so was a total ban on semi auto rifles and shotguns in New Zealand.

Parliament was to meet under urgency and formalize this in a matter of just days. With the bill enacted by April the 11th.

When asked if submissions could be made she laughed and said "Hurry".

A third round of additional gun restrictions is to follow after that.

All this before any investigation into how the horror happened. Even as each day revealed another failing by Police to properly vet the killer or to follow up on warning about him.

We did our best to open the conversation up:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12214145

and

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/111100032/firearms-registration-would-be-an-expensive-and-worthless-exercise

and to warn that the proposed laws could not only fail to make us safer but in fact make things worse:

https://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2019/03/the-danger-of-jacindas-new-gun-laws/

As we have done in the recent past:

https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/criminals-use-guns-relative-impunity

But the fix was in.

There are five things that YOU need to do RIGHT NOW.

The first is to sign this petition.

https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/petitions/document/PET_86334/petition-of-hayden-livingstone-kiwis-request-reasonable

It calls for Parliament to actually hear the nation's concerns before acting and only takes a minute.

The last petition had several thousand signatures but was removed by the host site simply because they hate guns. This petition can not be interfered with.

The second thing to do is to make a submission to the committee 'considering' the formal law change in a matter of days.

Just email here:

[email protected]nz

Don't be intimidated. Just say what you feel. Will a ban on semi automatic firearms stop a future horror?

Keeping in mind that the Christchurch terrorist killed 50 innocent humans with a gun - in specific revenge for another madman killing 87 with a truck?

Do you think the laws could push guns underground and make the situation worse?

Have your say.

The third thing to do is to contact your local MP.

Call or email or visit them. Be respectful but make clear that you expect them to do the RIGHT thing here. Not to just virtue signal.

A list of MPs is available here:

https://www.parliament.nz/en/mps-and-electorates/members-of-parliament/

The forth thing to do is write to the Prime Minister about your concerns.

Her address is:

[email protected]govt.nz

Copy in the following 4 people:

 [email protected]govt.nz

[email protected]govt.nz

[email protected]

[email protected]

The last thing to do is check that your mates are OK.

Some people are having a hard time coming to terms with losing their sport and the amazing people that they know because of it. Lets make sure that we are all OK in the face of some pretty horrific online abuse.

Act now team.

The last week has been insanity on fast forward.

Lets insist that reasoned discourse returns to the conversation. Or there will not be a conversation at all.

Share this email with your shooting friends. Sign them up to the lottery.

Now is not the time to dwell on which politicians chose to virtue signal in the media or which shooters sold out their brothers and sisters.

Act NOW to preserve your shooting heritage.

Stay positive!

The Shooters Lottery

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote jackel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2019 at 9:37pm
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Hey all if anyone would like this email sent to them direct, please let me know. The petition already has over 10,000 signatures to slow down these knee-jerk reforms and look at the bigger picture before punishing us law abiding citizens. 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (2) Likes(2)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2019 at 6:21am
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INNOCENT FIREARM HANDOVER:

The innocent handing in their firearms to stop extremist terror crime of the ONE MAN
Is like a like Every Man chopping of his Penis to stop Rape Crime 

water water everywhere,how many fish does it hold?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2019 at 10:47am
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While I like my guns, hunted all my life, why does anyone need 'easy'access to MSSA's carrying more than 5 rounds?Yes there are a few specific taks that might need them, so if I undertand correctly you can get a permit for that. So no one loses there MSSA if they have a valid need for it and pass the security requirments.

I don't like these fast tracked govt processes, but lets face it - the vast (VAST) majority of NZer's will support the new MSSA rules, mainly becasue they make good sense. So slowing down the process is not because the majority of Kiwis will change their view, it is about giving the gun lobbiests time to try and get a decision that opposes the majority view. I hate lobbiests more than I hate fast tracked govt decisions.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote jackel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2019 at 4:13pm
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Hi Tagit, there seems to have been many errors in the assessment of that individual to get his A Cat firearms licence, as stated by Joe Green (retired) Police Inspector, here are some articles by him. The perpetrator in Christchurch, in my view should not have received his licence in the first place, and secondly illegally fitted a large capacity magazine to the rifle, thereby making it E Cat. Unfortunately, E Cat licence holders who have jumped through hoops (willingly) to obtain this endorsement will be stripped of their rifles and no longer be able to do things such as shoot Service Rifle competitions, nationally and internationally and it will also affect pest control etc. more 1080 reqd. 

p.s Tagit this post is just meant as food for thought, not saying I am right and you are wrong just sharing a different viewpoint. 

From Inspector Joe Green (Ret):NZ Police national arms control section manager from 1998 to 2013.

Was the integrity of the firearms licensing process compromised?

In my opinion piece published in the DomPost on 20 March 2019 I said that “Legislators would do well to begin with a close review of the firearms licensing process as it was applied to Friday’s offender. It is after all the mechanism by which he gained lawful access to firearms”.

I now understand that the firearms licensing process as it was applied to the offender in the Christchurch shootings was compromised in that:

• The offender applied for his firearms licence in a Police District in which he might have an increased chance of getting it approved.

• It seems that there was no interview of the offender’s spouse, partner or next of kin (the person who knows them best).

• The process requires the interview of an unrelated referee. I understand that two people were interviewed. They knew the offender primarily through an on-line chat room. Both referees are recorded as saying the same.

• The offender declined to be interviewed at his home. He was interviewed at his place of work.

• There is doubt as to if a home visit and security inspection took place.

• It is apparent in the vetting process that the offender has no friends as such.

This outlines a classic scenario for someone setting up to obtain a firearms licence for nefarious purposes, and because due process was not followed, he succeeded.

Having obtained a firearms licence it is but a short step to obtaining firearms. A step he took.

Changing the law in terms of the possession and use of firearms by law abiding people will have little effect on safety unless the integrity of the licensing process is maintained. 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2019 at 5:40pm
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Whatever happened re his licence issue is z eed herring. The issue is bsning of miltsry style mssa as they currently stand.
Talking around here most of the guts tend agree.. Be arms holders or not.
Then there is a small number who eed a bigger voice.. Ie farmers who have serious goat /larger pest issues.
I do see in these cases where a special licence to be able to hold these guns.. With limitation on mag size..
The little 2 is not coming under scrutiny as I understand it.

I have never understood with the big shake up.. Back in the 80s from memory.. Removing the registration of each gun to a licence holder.
This enables to know where guns are who owns what.. Including who owns mssa guns currently
Think about it.. If this info was known back in aromamana. Or even now.. A full investigation could be carried out if each owner has turned into a possible nutta
Or even just a periodic follow up of the owners

I had to re sit my licence a couple yrs back after letting it expire for a few decades..
The interview of sponsers, family, my background was real though to say the least. Then sit the test.
I got one wrong due to misunderstanding of 1 question.
I finished the test, went over the paper again when most of the others where still turning the 1st and 2nd pages.
I'm think what the hell no time limit.. If one Is going for a gun licence surely there should be no hesitation in being able to answer any of them???

Quite frankly I looked around that room and wondered why in the hell at least 3/4 of them would need a licence to hold a gun....
I have no idea how many finally qualified.

I mentioned this to my son who got his licence a few yrs before.. And his experience was the same..

A gun licence is no different to a driver's licence.. Its a privilege not a right.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote jackel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2019 at 5:49pm
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Thanks Steps on your thoughts, no-one including myself does not think 'something' has to be done, but as you will see here again by Joe Green is legislation was rushed through back in 1992 which has led in part due to the loop-hole with A and E Cat licences. All licence holders and non-licence holders share the countries shock and horror at the sick individual who took those lives and don't want to see it repeated, be it by firearm or other means. 

JOE GREEN
Firearms Safety Council chairman, and former police national arms control officer

Hastily implemented changes to legislation have the potential to work against the safe use and control of firearms. Right here in New Zealand we have an excellent previous example that is very much relevant to Friday's tragic events.

After the Aramoana shootings in 1992, the government acted quickly to address the issue of semi-automatic firearms. Among much political rhetoric, the features that were thought to constitute a military-style firearm entered into law as what we now know as a military-style semi-automatic, known commonly as an MSSA.

Ever since, this legal construct has provided difficulties for both law enforcement and users.

While those wishing to use MSSAs have to apply for an endorsement on their firearms licence, undergo a higher level of police vetting and have in place a higher level of security, few controls – other than those regarding importation –  were placed on the constituent parts that make a semi-automatic firearm an MSSA.

Judge Thorp, in his 1997 Review of Firearms Control in New Zealand, considered that this created a "potential for evasion of the law". An opportunity that Friday's offender took advantage of – he fitted large-capacity magazines to his sporting firearms, placing himself outside the law.

Little attention has been paid to the ability to obtain large-capacity magazines without having to demonstrate that one could lawfully possess a MSSA.

Former chief justice Dame Sian Elias said "legislation should be based on solid facts, not pious hopes". This sounds a warning to legislators. New Zealand already has an enviable record in terms of numbers of deaths in which firearms were the cause.

The possession of firearms in this country is controlled by a licensing regime that has possibly the most intrusive vetting in the world. The firearms community would be concerned at any move to change this process.

Legislators would do well to begin with a close review of the firearms licensing process as it was applied to Friday's offender. It is, after all, the mechanism by which he gained lawful access to firearms.

Finally, close consultation with firearms users is going to be essential if we are not to repeat the difficulties of the hastily made changes to the Arms Act in 1992. It is within this community that the expertise resides. They, too, are reeling from Friday's events and looking for answers.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote jackel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2019 at 5:56pm
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I have followed that up with an article by Paul Buchanan former intelligence, and defense policy analyst and consultant for the US state Govt.(Living in NZ for quite a number of years now). These guys I have quoted are not light weight guys, they are qualified to speak on these issues and carry more weight than self appointed 'media' experts from TV1 and TV3. (Article below published on Stuff)

by Paul Buchanan 15/3/19

Security analyst Paul Buchanan said he had seen the manifesto of the alleged Christchurch shooter and his presence on right-wing platforms online.

"He is a very clear white supremacist who has been planning this for two years," he said.

Mr Buchanan called the Christchurch shooting a watershed moment in New Zealand history.

He told Checkpoint it was worse that the Rainbow Warrior attack and the Trades Hall bombing.

"This is about as bad as it can get because it shows we don't live in a benign environment ... we've been affected with the virus of extremism.

"The thing is it came from white supremacists and not the Islamic community, [they were] the target today."

"Why wasn't he flagged earlier and this whole episode prevented?" - Security analyst Paul Buchanan (6 min 39 sec)

Mr Buchanan said the mosque attack would raise a lot of questions within the security services because the "bulk of intelligence-gathering and efforts at prevention when it comes to terrorism have been directed at the Islamic community of New Zealand".

That meant that resources were not directed towards right-wing extremists.

"The intelligence services were looking the wrong way."

New Zealand succumbs to US 'homicidal politics of confrontation'

 

he shooter might have been part of a small cell who had some support in the Christchurch area, rather than a lone wolf, Mr Buchanan said.

He said this was because automatic or semi-automatic weapons weren't easily available in New Zealand without a licence.

"The weapon, from what I can tell, may have been modified. It takes some technical skills to modify a hunting weapon into something that's semi-automatic.

"He had high capacity magazines, he may have used a bump stock which was used by the Las Vegas shooter. These guys learn from each other."

The alleged shooter appeared to be on Twitter until a few hours ago.

"He was on right-wing platforms, including the platform that was used by the synagogue shooter in Pittsburgh last year. So, he's been out there with his views for a while.

"Why wasn't he flagged earlier and this whole episode prevented?"

He said this was a time to do some soul searching about how New Zealand had succumbed to "the homicidal politics of confrontation that we see in the US and Europe".

The first order of business would be to apprehend the subject and then his associates who helped him in his venture, he said. Thereafter it would pay to work back towards the planning and motivation.

Mr Buchanan said the shooter's skill set indicated he was either ex-military or had learned at the hands of someone else, who might be ex-military.

"Let's be very clear, Christchurch has a very active white supremacist community. A community that has attacked refugees and people of colour on multiple occasions over the last 20 years. This is the worst of them."

 


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2019 at 6:26pm
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Firearms vetting maybe the most intrusive in the world.
Yeh when I was interviewed he had stuff there even I had long forgotten about.. Decades ago last century..
Did I mind. No.. Could it have prevented me getti g my licence again.. Maybe if one of my sponsors had questioned my sanity or something..
They did not
I have no issue with the depth of vetting, or adding a few other things to that vetting.. Like certain associations to certain sectors of society.
Generally governments when do a knee jerk they screw up bad.. In particular this government.
In this case the knee jerk is very mildly questionable going ever so slightly too far.. That an minor adjustment to regs would fix later
But essentualy not going anywhere as far in other area
Over all for now.. I'm OK with it... And a few goats will live another day for awhile

With all due respect the fload of information judtifsction o me is way overboard propaganda NSA type lobbing that at this point in time will do far more damage to attitudes and any future adjustments for legitimate use of firearms
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Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

While I like my guns, hunted all my life, why does anyone need 'easy'access to MSSA's carrying more than 5 rounds?Yes there are a few specific taks that might need them, so if I undertand correctly you can get a permit for that. So no one loses there MSSA if they have a valid need for it and pass the security requirments.

I don't like these fast tracked govt processes, but lets face it - the vast (VAST) majority of NZer's will support the new MSSA rules, mainly becasue they make good sense. So slowing down the process is not because the majority of Kiwis will change their view, it is about giving the gun lobbiests time to try and get a decision that opposes the majority view. I hate lobbiests more than I hate fast tracked govt decisions.
agree with Tagit 100% - I have a firearms license and was vetted when applied for and a retired cop came and visited my house and interviewed wife in a separate room - as Tagit notes support for change here in NZ is VAST so its going to happen.
Have seen it at work and in society someone abuses a privilege and the rules change -  may not like it but this is what happens and I think the gun lobby has had its day after 49 people died!
Just be thankful that all guns were not banned - that would have been a knee jerk reaction.
Good fishing trip nothing breaks, great trip catch fish.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote pjc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2019 at 7:54am
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Stuart Nash spoke about a gun register and nothing is going to happen till maybe end of April. They want to get it right,but they certainly rushed to ban semis. A good shooter with a bolt action 5 shot mag could load and fire and do as much damage,at this stage no mention of how mags one can own.


water water everywhere,how many fish does it hold?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2019 at 9:02am
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Notice they banned semis.. Well current sales.. The legislation for buy back etc is still in the works.. Along with register as PJC mentions.
So currently the knee jerk ownership bs is not true.
And no doubt when the legiststion is reveiwd soon.. The issue of who owns /requires for pest control.. Ie professional pest control people. Will also be considered.
The new reg then doesn't seem quite as knee jerk as it 1st seems.

I have seen professional shooters (pre chopper pre mssa days} drop several deer and goats before the heard disappeared.. Meaning days /weeks relocating set up and repeat.
With advent of mssa guns it's not 3 or 4 dropped.. And that's only with a hand ful highly skilled cullers.. A farmer with a little ptactice can do the same with every shot being a drop. Effective culling these days is a very time consuming job with heards far more skiterish and fewer than 40 or 50yrs ago.

There are some tools and practices that are only permitted to certain trades and occupations and ppl within those trades. Doctors Dentists electrical and plumbing gas fitting.. I see no reason why mssa are not restricted in the same way....
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2019 at 10:11am
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Why did we even have the MSSA loophole that the shooter used? I suspect that falls directly st the feet of our gun lobby after Aramoana. I would love to be able to dig up the truth on that. Maybe those responsible could volunteer to pay the costs of supporting families that lost parents. Probably not going to happen though.

MSSA's, like handguns, have very limited useful purposes other than killing people. If you have a genuine purpose then going through the extra checks etc shouldn't be an issue. If it's just your favourite toy then that's not worth people getting killed for IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2019 at 10:22am
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Originally posted by jackel jackel wrote:

Hi Tagit, there seems to have been many errors in the assessment of that individual to get his A Cat firearms licence, as stated by Joe Green (retired) Police Inspector, here are some articles by him. The perpetrator in Christchurch, in my view should not have received his licence in the first place, and secondly illegally fitted a large capacity magazine to the rifle, thereby making it E Cat. Unfortunately, E Cat licence holders who have jumped through hoops (willingly) to obtain this endorsement will be stripped of their rifles and no longer be able to do things such as shoot Service Rifle competitions, nationally and internationally and it will also affect pest control etc. more 1080


And the scaremongering from the lobbiests starts. We dont drop 1080 to kill pests that you shoot with MSSA'S. I assume they use them for goats and maybe Thar. But what other pests herd in the open today where you get to shoot off lots of rounds? What is the real, actual impact of only having 7 (or 5) rounds instead of 30? I am sure there might be some, but enough to see more people get killed?
I hadn't heard that MSSA's were going to completely banned. I thought they were just going to be limited to class E licences with I assume an upgraded checking procedure etc? What has been announced so far?
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I have read a few reports from crusher Colin's Banks and couple other ministers and chair persons of review committees over that last few decades..
A lot of it seems bit of po, itical statement told you so stuff.
Then sort of read between the lines common theme is that those on the committees had been inundated with and over whelming amount of information that in retro spec was designed to confuse and run red herrings.
This then lead to the refuse committittes making, in retrospect decisions not originally intended with open loopholes.
A tactic widely imployed by the all powerful American arms organisation, and seems financed this in nz.

This time round Crusher, Banks and others are basically openly saying for these, most likely sponsored American based lobbyist to.. Quote "pi55 off".
Let's get back to making rules for us by us.
We told them to P off over no nukes.. And they put on sanctions which to this day many still exist...
Trump Said to our Pm sorry it happened to our country, was there anything he could do to help us. Yeah remove the alluimium and steel restrictions, open up free trade to us..
We need trade with major markets or die economically.. The use is Damn near closed openly or Suttle beurocratic which leaves.. Who?
So I have no compunction that a ban put on American lobbyists like NRA
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2019 at 1:48pm
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Lobbiests ste employed to get governments to make decisions they know dont follow the majority will. They are a stain on democratic processes. He who has the most money wins.
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Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

Why did we even have the MSSA loophole that the shooter used? I suspect that falls directly st the feet of our gun lobby after Aramoana. I would love to be able to dig up the truth on that. Maybe those responsible could volunteer to pay the costs of supporting families that lost parents. Probably not going to happen though.

MSSA's, like handguns, have very limited useful purposes other than killing people. If you have a genuine purpose then going through the extra checks etc shouldn't be an issue. If it's just your favourite toy then that's not worth people getting killed for IMO.

Hey Tagit, have a re-read of the post above regarding Joe Green-he was in charge of the Police firearms National Arms control section manager from 1998-2013 surely he must carry some weight in your eyes? The govt created the loophole by rushing through legislation. Here is the excerpt to see for yourself. 

After the Aramoana shootings in 1992, the government acted quickly to address the issue of semi-automatic firearms. Among much political rhetoric, the features that were thought to constitute a military-style firearm entered into law as what we now know as a military-style semi-automatic, known commonly as an MSSA.

Ever since, this legal construct has provided difficulties for both law enforcement and users.

All the firearms holders want is reasoned and well thought out consultation with those in the know, not those who think they are, there is a difference. 

To put it another way, there was talk a while ago about creating more marine reserves in NZ. Imagine if the govt just said we are doing it anyway and we arnt going to consult those affected. We are going to ring-fence all islands in the hauraki gulf. Imagine the backlash. We both know that there is a lot more that needs to be discussed in my example, such as is it going to achieve the goal we desire? Who are the affected parties? Are there going to be un-intended consequences? (as there should be). 

I read 29 gang members received the firearms licence in 2016, surely this would be an area to address wouldnt you think? How did they pass the requirement of being a 'fit and proper person'? 

At the end of the day we all want to be safer but regrettably the 'easy' targets (law abiding gun owners) are going to be hit rather than those who never will hand in any firearms. More scrutiny is fine, but Jacinda has got her political future to take into account so I think its too late. 
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Jacinda has got her political future to take into account so I think its too late. 

Why?
note my post above.
She has been listening to ppl like fed farmers..

What ever happens the law will tighten up..mssa may or may not be completely banned...  
Maybe extending registration to owners making owners responsible for their guns and police knowing who has what..
Vetting is already strict..come down to who vetts , not the system.. thu maybe some areas here tightened up a little.
The rules as to not being in charge of a gun on and drugs/ alcohol.. even prescribed heart drugs etc,  carrying and transport currently all good in my books.
 purchase of ammo all good.. maybe also include certain or all gun parts.
And notification when move house..even if have a license and no guns, you must still have secure storage...and they are quick on that too.

Our guns where moved to another licence holder while open homes, and during the move.. even thu had not picked them up was still inspected and had to have the safe storage.

Something here , had a cuppa with the police inspector person.. she mentioned how easy our inspection was.. and other  the ppl are not available, put off for many reasons time and again over months.. I queering why there was no time limit after the move, and why cant she just say to them
" right inspection will be X day, and if not we then immediately revoke the license and take the guns.. end of story "
The hassle then is " I dont have any guns.."
And since there is not registration they get to keep their guns and no licence and no correct storage.

Far too much in this country there is  bureaucratic policy of re education ...rather than enforcement..
Classic example the enquiry into LTSA boils down to "re education" and no enforcement till ppl die.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 5:30pm
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Titanium
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Originally posted by jackel jackel wrote:

Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

Why did we even have the MSSA loophole that the shooter used? I suspect that falls directly st the feet of our gun lobby after Aramoana. I would love to be able to dig up the truth on that. Maybe those responsible could volunteer to pay the costs of supporting families that lost parents. Probably not going to happen though.

MSSA's, like handguns, have very limited useful purposes other than killing people. If you have a genuine purpose then going through the extra checks etc shouldn't be an issue. If it's just your favourite toy then that's not worth people getting killed for IMO.


Hey Tagit, have a re-read of the post above regarding Joe Green-he was in charge of the Police firearms National Arms control section manager from 1998-2013 surely he must carry some weight in your eyes? The govt created the loophole by rushing through legislation. Here is the excerpt to see for yourself. 

After the Aramoana shootings in 1992, the government acted quickly to address the issue of semi-automatic firearms. Among much political rhetoric, the features that were thought to constitute a military-style firearm entered into law as what we now know as a military-style semi-automatic, known commonly as an MSSA.

Ever since, this legal construct has provided difficulties for both law enforcement and users.

All the firearms holders want is reasoned and well thought out consultation with those in the know, not those who think they are, there is a difference. 

To put it another way, there was talk a while ago about creating more marine reserves in NZ. Imagine if the govt just said we are doing it anyway and we arnt going to consult those affected. We are going to ring-fence all islands in the hauraki gulf. Imagine the backlash. We both know that there is a lot more that needs to be discussed in my example, such as is it going to achieve the goal we desire? Who are the affected parties? Are there going to be un-intended consequences? (as there should be). 

I read 29 gang members received the firearms licence in 2016, surely this would be an area to address wouldnt you think? How did they pass the requirement of being a 'fit and proper person'? 
At the end of the day we all want to be safer but the 'easy' targets (law abiding gun owners) are going to be hit rather than those who never will hand in any firearms. More scrutiny is fine, but Jacinda has got her political future to take into account so I think its too late.
I like my guns. Not antigun at all. In this case though the scales balance heavily in favour of restricting easy access to MSSA's. The other changes being discussed are going through the normal consultation process, So here we are only talking about whether you can have a semi auto with more than 5 round capacity if I understood properly??
If that is all it is at this stage I think the worlds impression of how we act is probably more important than talking about things for a couple of months and then doing it anyway. I wouldn't normally say that, but this just seems too obvious and too important. Best guess maybe just over 0.1% of the population own MSSA's so it is a super minority being affected.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 9:25am
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Titanium
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Exactly..
Let's put it this way.. There are one hell of a lot of licence holders and gun owners here..
I don't see any getting up and being vocal re the rush of legislation or the very publicly intended proposal in this thread.
Responsible hunters, skeet shooters, farmers, collectors(most of who I know are rare vintage type guns) , competition gun owners rely have no issue with mssa and the fat track legislation.
I have meet 1 person, not anti the legislation, more disappointed... A regular hunter who after shooting a mssa on several occasions, was going to buy one shortly before terror-able friday.. Only cause he has now access to friends with farms with ferrel goat issues.
Is rather p155ed that because of a very tiny minority once again limits out freedoms... Note angry at the minority not the legislation.

So as I see it.. Concerns of rushed legislation, restrictions etc the over kill of red herring gobblygoo info has resulted in a handful of forum members all being understanding to being in favour of the government actions

Simply put.. This thread is a non event.
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