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Acid Wrapping Why?

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    Posted: 01 Dec 2011 at 9:29am
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Ok so I hijacked another thread with my opinions on Acid wrapping.
 
When you use a properly built conventional wrap rod and compare against an acid wrapped rod, what do you notice?
 
As was pointed out by Fluffy, some very good rod builders, including his Dad, adopted this method and have used it extensively in their collections.
 
My view is that swinging the line from top to bottom of the rod may have an effect on reducing the rod twisting in your hand under load, but it can't be that significant. in essence the toque created by the line being about 10mm away from the blank centre, can't be that much especially when the rod is bent.
 
An Acid rod uses less guides, therefore action is less impacted. Could be a good thing.
 
However, the acid wrap technique has been around a very long time predating any of the fguys currently using it, and I haven't really seen it adopted in any other part of the world except here.
 
I haven't laid hands on many Modern jig rods, but it seems that those come from carpenter, jig master etc. are mostly conventional wraps. (I may have stand correction on this one.)
 
Be really cool to hear some thought from other rod builders.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Dohboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2011 at 10:36am
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Originally posted by Bigfishbob Bigfishbob wrote:




 I haven't really seen it adopted in any other part of the world except here.
 

 


It started overseas meany meany years ago i first picked one up at the boat show on the reel rods stand about 6 years ago it looked cool so i built a rod and it works.

Read here
http://www.acidrod.com/acidrods.html


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Blue Asparagus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2011 at 10:47am
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I have a custom one made by Matt of Just Fishin fame, a very nice rod, it is only for soft baits though, I have thought about getting some made up for game fishing, whether there would be benefit to this I dont know.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Bigfishbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2011 at 10:50am
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Sweet Dohboy but what do you notice when you use one straight after a conventional one?
 
I lived in Califoirnia from 2000 -2004, built quite  few rods during that time and also hung out with quite a few guys thta also built their own rods, and nobody was using it then.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Espresso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2011 at 11:47am
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I use an acid wrap for softbaiting light tackle, I don't build them but I am a user...

In my opinion:
It looks cool
It feels good in use
Haven't noticed any different sideways or otherwise twist forces

...a style thing?

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Badfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2011 at 1:15pm
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Personally I've spiral/acid wrapped my SP rods too but I think the benefit is more noticable in jig rods under big loads. I also think the benefit is more easy to feel than explain.
With jig rods being (often) very short, capable of some huge drag pressure/load, and often very parabolic, the twist feeling can be exagerated quite a bit with just the slightest of movement side to side at the reel end. It can also be further exagerated by a rocking boats, angler skill level and even fatigue. If you have an acid wrapped rod PULLING the tip down the rod CAN NOT twist (without some extreme muppetry). Of course plenty of this can be controlled by a bit more effort/skill on the part of the angler but in my view it would be better to remove the variable all together so the angler only has to worry about the rod on the vertical plane rather than twist etc. You don't even need a gimbal knock on an acid wrapped rod, although we'll often put them on so the rods don't just spin in the rod holder.
 
You need pretty intimate knowledge about the blank you are acid wrapping to get it done right! If it wasn't for working with guys like Tiny and MIB etc I wouldn't be doing near as many acid wrapped rods.
 
I think they're often not done on the big scale because they take a lot more effort. You ever gone into a shop and tested to see which rods are actually built on the back bone? This is rod building 101 type of stuff but it would seem too much effort for a high majority of rod companies. The effort HAS to be put into acid wrapping, not just at the beginning when finding the spine but when the guides are spaced and the progression is tuned to each style of blank but also each rod that is pumped out needs to be checked that the guides are where they're meant to be. Look at a lot of the off the rack rods and you'll find a lot of conventional rods don't even have straight guides!
I make part of my living repairing guides on rods and it's often hard to know where to line the guides up to. Should I line them up to where they're meant to be or should they fit in where the other guides are....? Not just cheap rods but also supposed "high end" rods.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote SamMcK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2011 at 2:43pm
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I've only built one acid-wrapped so may be wrong here but not only can you get away with less guides, but also smaller guides = less $$$ if using sic's etc.  Apart from the increased difficulties in deciding where to place guides (which admittedly is a biggy) are there any con's to acid-wrapped - the only one I can think of is that some people think they look naff.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Dohboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2011 at 3:28pm
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The old saying goes "each to there own" and that applies to rod as well.

What Badfish has said is totally correct ...to a point. By this i mean that you have to want to fish a acid wrapped rod, i was talking to a guy on here the other day who catches a lot of fish and wants to build a new overhead soft bait rod but there is no way he wants an acid wrapped rod , he as fished them and just does not like them.

ALL rods can be acid wrapped but will the blank benefit from this ????? Well not all from my experience. A blank that is say 10-15kg with a fast action and that is built the right way will only twist a very little under full load, so will only benefit a small amount, on the other hand a 7ft 4-6 kg soft bait that has a medium to slow action will twist quite a bit so acid wrapping it will fix this .

I have read loads of opions on here about acid wrapping rods. Some have said they are the best thing since sliced bread while others on here have posted the acid wrapped rod are only for those that dont know how to fish the wright way so my addvice to you Bigfishbob is to get an old rod one that you will never use again strip the guides of it and acid wrap it.

You will learn alot about guide spacing and rod set up so give it a go.
Dean

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Badfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2011 at 3:44pm
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Yea good point re the each to their own thing DB. I work part time in my local tackle shop which has taught me plenty of things buy no single thing stands out more than there are as many styles of fishing as there is anglers, and thank goodness for that I say Thumbs Up

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Skipjack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2011 at 4:07pm
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Acid wrapped Jig rods certainly feel nice loaded up on a good fish (even better with a bent butt).
A jig rod under heavy load you can often see the top end rolling over this is where the acid wrapping helps to stop the blank twisting and if its twisting its causing torque to the angler (is it that much? but every bit that you don't have to correct your self has got to help?). I guess you have to try it then you can say hey i like it or its not for me.

BA  dont see the point if your fully harnessed and not trying over load the rod (fishing it within its drag ratings (eg 15kg stand up game rod with 5kgs drag).   
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Panga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2011 at 4:49pm
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Fishing rods are very subjective, what works for my style of fishing may not work for yours.

The mechanics of blank design and construction can be mind numbing, them when you take in all the other variables of line type, true line breaking strain, reel placement and rod purpose you have a LOT to think about.
Of all the rods that JD (Kojak) designed and built for me only 1 was an acid wrap, it was a  7ft rod built to fish 3kg mono. It was only just finished in time for the 2010 nationals, we landed 2 snapper over 20pd on it ( plus many other big fish), one on 4kg and one on 3kg, both these fish won their line classes and I think we came second in both line classes as well.
John believed  that particular blank would benefit from acid wrapping, and as usual he was 100% correct.
I ONLY FISH HANDMADE KOJAK CUSTOM RODS.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Red Hunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2011 at 5:32pm
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All excellent advice , I have spent many hours studying the different idears on the subject , I can see the merits in it , but I think it boils down to what the individual is happy with , and that is all that counts . I have caught many large fish on conventional wrapped rods and twist has not been a issue for me , I have fished acid wrapped and also found them to be excellent to fish with , the one and only issue I found was hitting the guides on the gunnel , but I just need to take more care .
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Jet_ski_fisher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2011 at 7:21pm
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Why do they call it acid wrap rods? 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kenshin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2011 at 7:31pm
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Originally posted by Hard_core_gamer Hard_core_gamer wrote:

Why do they call it acid wrap rods? 

Coz the guy that came up with it was thought to be on 'acid'.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Jet_ski_fisher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2011 at 8:16pm
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Ahhh i see.. now i know why.. funky name alright 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Red Hunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2011 at 9:26pm
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If you guys are interested have a look at this , by a bloke called Denis Brown , known on this forum by some  http://www.360tuna.com/forum/f74/spiral-not-spiral-12165/index3.html  it will help understand a lot .
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Panga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2011 at 10:41pm
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Originally posted by Red Hunter Red Hunter wrote:

If you guys are interested have a look at this , by a bloke called Denis Brown , known on this forum by some  http://www.360tuna.com/forum/f74/spiral-not-spiral-12165/index3.html  it will help understand a lot .
Hells bells that is a in depth discusion, thanks for the link
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote The Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2011 at 12:37pm
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I still dont get the acid/spiral wrap thing.(Other than removing the twist sensation when you have the rod loaded) 
I thought the spine/backbone of a rod blank ran down one side in a straight line? (not a rod builder)
If the spine of the rod is the most crucial thing to consider when building then what effect does it play when you wrap the load around the blank i.e not following the spine ?
Also does the acid/spiral wrap put a twist type load into the blank when load is applied through the guides?
If in fact it does twist the blank slightly when loaded what effect does this have on the action and life of said blank?
Is there a blank that has been specifically designed for acid/spiral wrapped guides i.e the spine is built around the blank along its length?
Very interesting subject this.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Badfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2011 at 2:49pm
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Originally posted by The Dog The Dog wrote:

I still dont get the acid/spiral wrap thing.(Other than removing the twist sensation when you have the rod loaded) 
I thought the spine/backbone of a rod blank ran down one side in a straight line? (not a rod builder)
 
Correct.
 
Originally posted by The Dog The Dog wrote:

If the spine of the rod is the most crucial thing to consider when building then what effect does it play when you wrap the load around the blank i.e not following the spine ?
If don't incorrectly the bumper guide could most certainly cause more problems than it solves. Thats why its so important to keep the line as close to the blank without touching as you can as it transitions from the top to the bottom.
 
Originally posted by The Dog The Dog wrote:

Also does the acid/spiral wrap put a twist type load into the blank when load is applied through the guides?
 
It could if not done correctly. This is where guide choice (ie size and frame)
 
Originally posted by The Dog The Dog wrote:

If in fact it does twist the blank slightly when loaded what effect does this have on the action and life of said blank?
 
If you get it wrong you can most certainly bugger the rod up and lessen it's strength!
 
Originally posted by The Dog The Dog wrote:

Is there a blank that has been specifically designed for acid/spiral wrapped guides i.e the spine is built around the blank along its length?
Very interesting subject this.
 
I think you may have the spine a bit confused, rod still only bends the same way (hopefully on spine), the line wraps around it supported by the guides. As above if you keep the line as close to the blank as you can as it transitions you will effect very little, if at all, any twist on the blank.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Bigfishbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2011 at 3:08pm
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Rod blanks are made by cutting a right angled triangular flag shaped piece of Fibreglass and or graphite cloth and wrapped around a tapering mandrel and cured .........Roughly speaking.

The spine is a result of the perpendicular edge of the "flag" running along the centreline of the mandrel as the "flag" is wrapped around the mandrel the perpendicular edge under the wrap becomes a bump and after curing and post-cure finishing becomes the spine.  You never see the bump because the centreless grininding operation after curing removes it.
 
Blank makers may be able to cause the spine to wrap around the blank instead of running straight along it, by not laying the perpendicular edge of the flag along the mandrel spine......maybe some do? Perhaps making the flag shape as an isoceles triangle or something other than a right angle triangle.
 
The really tricky thing would be to wrap the mandrel such that the spine goes one way and the line stress goes the other to cancel each other out.
 
I'm now even more convinced that Acid wrapping is done more for reasons of personal preference and aesthetic quirkiness than real performance improvement. I haven't done the math, but very roughly a turning moment is created by a force applied at a distance from the blank centre. The small distances involved, 10-15 mm lead me to supect that twisting torque is sweet FA.
 
I'd go on to suggest that in most cases when people experience rods trying to twist themselves out of their hands, is because the rod has been built off the spine which as somebody else said is extremely common with shop bought rods.  
 
The conclusion, a rod that handles really nicely from a really good custom rod builder probably does so because it's just been built well, rather than being an acid wrap.
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