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94 Buccaneer 4.9m Runabout, others to consider?

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    Posted: 20 Jun 2017 at 8:28am
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IMO Buccaneer outside Haines Hunter SF is the premier brand in glass boats from the 90s. 

Im looking for a good family 5m Boat, which means a bit of protection for young'ns from the wind. So maybe Id be better suited to a half cab.

Looking around $10k. Have seen some pearlas in mint condition for this price with around 96-00 115hp engines.

Am in no hurry as its not needed until about September so gives me plenty of leveraging time on $10k down to $9k especially with the glooming NZ economic armageddon. Cash is king :-).

I thought about a 6m for overnighters as its just the 3 of us, but to be honest the young'n aint so keen on sleeping in small boats (seems ok on our friends 60ft Catamaran, but its like an apartment on the water).

Secondly Id like to if I could keep the HP down, even down to 90 if possible, but need a really good hull at 5m for that to work.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MikeAqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2017 at 8:59am
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Try to avoid under-powering a boat.  An engine that is workig hard has shorter life than one that is hardly working.  Plus it's going to struggle in adverse conditions.

To get away with a smaller outboard for a given boat length you will be looking at shallow vee hulls whiich means giving up the sea-keeping abilities of boats like Haines and Buccaneer.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2017 at 9:19am
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Secondly Id like to if I could keep the HP down, even down to 90 if possible, but need a really good hull at 5m for that to work.


 Like Mike states above.
There is very little difference in modern trailer boat hulls.. yo will find crouches constant in a very narrow range.. 195 to 205.
 Bottom line its matching the hp to the total on the water gross weight.  The better powered (thats doesnt include over powered) the more comfortable (chop and flat water) and more economic at higher cruise speeds.
 Much depends on what you consider a good all up economic cruise speed is.
Personally I consider middle of he road cruise for a 5 to 5.5 around 32 to 37 mph..
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MikeAqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2017 at 11:11am
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That's true - it's the added mass of deeper hulled vessels that pushes HP requirements up.  So you can just look at mass with planing mono-hulls.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote FizFisho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2017 at 7:49pm
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yep agree with all the above.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 9:43am
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A thought.. and have seen this with a few guys...
 Starts out with a 'family' boat.. ans all good .. for a while, but interest fads to the occasional trip out. The smaller the boat the more likely and faster it will happen.

Which leaves the number guys that can fish REASONABLY comfortable (for boats under 6+ meters)
5.5m 3,  4 ppl at a push on modern larger deck area boats...or 2 ppl @ 1 line, 1 person @2 lines
 5m you are getting down to 2 ppl and possible 4 lines

There is also a big difference between a 5m boat and 5.5m (even bigger @6m) as to how often you can get out and how far due to weather / chop etc... even a change of tide with a breeze can go from flat as to a nasty stacked up chop in minutes.

 the cost of a full day out on a little larger boat can be split more ways oil/ gas/ ice/ bait/ burly about  $40 to $50 each..  There is not much difference in TOTAL between a well powered well propped for cruise 5.5 and 6m boat.. 6m can divide 4 ways.
A 5m is a cheaper in TOTAL.. tends to cruise a little slower, and a little to same cost divided 2 ways.

Personally would like to go more 6m..from 5.5, for all the reasons above.. but cant turn it, even with the tractor in the back yard.. well can but turning on a slope with a 3 or 4 point turn after coming home after dark...
last boat was only .3m shorter.. big difference all round
 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote JustAnotherSpearo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 9:54am
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A mate of mine has a 510 Buccaneer with a 90hp 2 stroke yammie. Great boat but you have to seriously push the outboard to get anywhere. WOT is 33mph with 2POB from memory. Not super bad but still not ideal. 
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WOT is 33mph with 2POB from memory.

And assuming the engine prop is allowing to meet at least the mid piont of the manufactures WoT spec.

 Crunch numbers thats about 900kg gross weight on the water which is ball park.
 So if ones expectations are to cruise at say 33mph you are going to need 90 hp +15 to 20% (105/ 108hp) AT the rpms you wish to cruise at..
So lets say you choose 3800 rpm cruise speed, looking at the rpm/ hp graph of the engine it needs to have around 107hp @ 3800 rpms.
 
As example lets look at a V4 2S johnson/ evinrude...has a 1.86:1 gearbox..full power around the 5000/5300 range
Around 120 hp would be required, which would give around a WoT speed around 44/45 mph
Knowing the gear box ratio and being a 'cruise' not a race boat and aiming for around 12% slip at cruise would have a 19 or 20" pitch prop for a cruise @ 33mph @ 3800 rpms.
A WoT rpms 4900/5100
If anything the WoT maybe a little fast by a couple mph..
All the above is a close ball park... and would be surprisingly close if compared the on paper to actual on the water.

I give this as an example just how important it is to crunch numbers to establish if the boat and engine will meet expectations...
And all this can be worked out simply from knowing accurate WoT and speed of a plaining hull boat, if that WoT is within the manufactures recommend Max rpm range.

If I knew how , I could turn this all into a smart phone app

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MikeAqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 1:18pm
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Fishing room in boats very much depends on layout.

The thing that normally buggers fishing space in small small boats is the windshield coaming, which makes up to to half the cockpit difficult to fish from due to the higher sides.

4 - 6 lines can be bottom fished from a 5m boat if it has centre console layout.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote JustAnotherSpearo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 1:37pm
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Not sure about you guys but ive never ever encountered someone at the ramp who has said they have too much HP on the back. Its always undergunned or a quick topic change

Always better to have the juice there in reserve then to be wishing for more.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MikeAqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 3:00pm
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Originally posted by JustAnotherSpearo JustAnotherSpearo wrote:

Not sure about you guys but ive never ever encountered someone at the ramp who has said they have too much HP on the back. Its always undergunned or a quick topic change

Always better to have the juice there in reserve then to be wishing for more.


It's not often the HP so much as the weight and resulting trim issues.

The guy I bought my fi-glass reagent off (a 16 foot flat hulled boat) had a 150HP yam two stroke on it.  That was lunacy.  I had it doing 45 knots with a 90HP Merc.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote JustAnotherSpearo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 3:05pm
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I get where you are coming from but 115-140hp generally the have same block with that comes the same weight. Similar with the 70-100hp range.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote puff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 7:51pm
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I had a buccaneer 560 was a super boat for the size, probably what you are looking for but you need a reasonable motor hp wise on it.
Would recommend this size, was big enough for the family, had a great ride, never pounded and always felt safe...
I'm not sure what some of these keyboard warriors are sharning about with gear ratios and rubbish prop bovine effluent...
It always good to have power on tap if you need it...
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MikeAqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2017 at 9:32am
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Originally posted by JustAnotherSpearo JustAnotherSpearo wrote:

I get where you are coming from but 115-140hp generally the have same block with that comes the same weight. Similar with the 70-100hp range.


That's true. 

I'm a fan of getting the lower HP model of a block where possible.  That's based on some advice from a person who ran a fleet of charter vessels and water taxis.

By his rationale, in your example above the 140HP is 'working hard'.  The 115HP is 'hardly working'.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2017 at 9:49am
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Not sure about you guys but ive never ever encountered someone at the ramp who has said they have too much HP on the back.

 I know of a couple.. including myself.. I have 150 on the commander.. a little over powered..ALWAYS have to warn " hold on" when taking off...
Upgrading from a min powered (in practice AND crunching numbers)  looked around for a good 140 for a long time..
A 150 V6 came up..
 20 kg heavier..weight difference in significant.. less than someone moving to the stern or having the live bait full/ MT.. 
Difference in handling in all seas dramatic..
Son has a similar weight/ size boat with 140 V4...very nicely powered.. by numbers and practical, espec when take out similar boat with less HP.
 I know of an other similar size/ weight  with a 175 on the back.. crazy.. and down right dangerous.. throttle becomes so damn sensitive even to change speed at cruise throws ppl around, and in heavy chop either have your head in the windscreen or at flat on your back.
 AND the numbers confirm the results.
Over powering ican be  about as stupid as putting a 600 hp in go kart for a shopping basket.


I'm not sure what some of these keyboard warriors are sharning about with gear ratios and rubbish prop bovine effluent...
It always good to have power on tap if you need it...

I havnt seen any posts like that here....only posts made by those who are hands on real life application
Nor any Bovine Effluent other than by those who have little.. no.. no understanding of physics, maths and no experience within those fields or the practical application... no ever change hps on their boats  nor ever propped other than the std  .. get as close to max rpms and know nothing of prop slip applications
Which then, by their own definition, puts them into a keyboard warrior category..

There are 2 ways to power a boat.. the marine engineer way...work the numbers, to meet expectations build the boat, match the engine.
 Or
Trial and error.. IF have deep enough pockets, or get stuck with something you will never know the difference from...

 And 2 ways to get best prop.,, hit in miss...
or ball park a prop, sea trial, put the numbers, calc the slips, etc.. select the correct prop.  Done.

Gear box ratios.. its simple.. the pitch of a prop depends on the ratio of the pitch to the engine rpms... IF someone changes the gearbox ratio in between then the pitch will change also...
No different to changing a diff ratio in a car.
And slip is no different to changing a torque converter from say a 1200 to a 3000 rpm.

Instead of throwing insults It maybe between to sit back listen and learn a lot.
 If you wish to put up, or pm me the boat performance specs.. and your expectations of cruise speeds/ rpms I will be happy to crunch those numbers for you.. alone with further prop options if available ( there are few options available if a boat is under powered  and a couple if min powered.
The difference can be a good 40/ 45% difference in economy and better cruising speeds or may alreay be propped well.
Simply by crunching numbers.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote puff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2017 at 1:17pm
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Yawn....
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote clank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2017 at 8:44pm
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Your doing well staying awake to yawn Puff, I fell asleep.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2017 at 10:50am
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Which explains a lot...
about a lot...
 And why I get so many enquiries   " my boat (new or re powered) has got to be propped wrong as it doesnt perform as expected"
 Usually its because the boat the have brought, and sea trailed was under propped ( the demo boat) and not fully loaded.. under powered is the issue and no re propping will cure that.

 A min powered 5 to 6m cabin FULLY LOADED general use boat should be able cruise economically and comfortable around the 30/ 34 mph with a WOT 42/ 45 mph mid way in the manufactures WoT rpm band width 
 A well powered cruise at the same rpms, 34/ 38 mph and WoT around the high 40s/ 50 mph.
Having that power well propped make a huge different to hull performance at all speeds and seas.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MikeAqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2017 at 1:00pm
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Maybe we should have sticky on matching outboards and props to hulls and intended use.

Could be written down once, very clearly, setting out the maths. People with these sorts of questions could simply be referred to the sticky.

Continuous wave used to have couple of very good resource pages on this with calculators but they no longer seem to be available.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2017 at 4:08pm
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We had a thread ages ago...
Continuous wave an excellent web site, but unfortunately the formula are now only in equation form , not as a calculator.
Even so its not just a matter of dropping numbers in to a calc without having some understanding of the following.
The majority of plaining hulls have changed dramatically since crouches time..the biggest change is the number of trailer  boats, rather than moored , which limits hull width... and we have calculators not slide rules... Crouch based his formula on square root, when most force/ weight formula are cubed root. On a slide rule a quick calculation on a slide rule requiring cube root is not quite that simple.
Also Crouch was not just designing smaller plaining hulls but boats like PTs and lesser extent the veramile of WW2. These tended to have a constant hull contact with the water, where as modern boats tend to lift higher out of the water the faster they go. Therefore unlike yrs ago modern hull dont have a constant constant, unless min or underpowered
 These all have an effect on hull constants for modern plaining trailer boats.
 Thats just for calc what power (HP) is required for a hull of given weigh to travel at a given speed on flat water at best trim...give or take a couple mph.
Then comes the calculations to match a prop to the above, which is pretty straight forward

 Unfortunately the threads which we have been doing the calculations have got so many 'caveman' type spam posts.
So all that has gone to PM, usually personal emails, and face to face communications
Therefore the data, number crunching, explanations why and hows never got published.
What has bee of notice is the number of new and re powered boats the owners have been disappoint in performance.. messed with different props , only to find they just dont have the power to support the required prop to meet those expectations.
Few have had excellent results, being min to well powered...30 to 45% increase in economy and 4 to 6mph better cruise speeds, and increase in WoT
 And a couple, who where quite happy with what they had, but wondered if there was a little more...1 there was a tiny bit more but not worth the capital expense of new prop, the other was between 2 prop choices so had the best any way.

 The guys at Continuous wave and other pubic sites also take 'caveman' flak, not different to here. All because they
may mess with crouches formula and find it doesnt work very well because of a lack of understanding as explained above.
 So on that basis, because of a small majority, maybe a open area to work this stuff out is not such a good idea??


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