Leader question - Now with crimp Question!

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    Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 6:38am
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I was watching a video clip of Bill Hall and he was talking about leaders. He said some leaders will go a milky white colour after they have been loaded up, and he also said they are no good. He reckons Ande Leader won't do that.

I don't think I have ever seen a leader that wasn't a milky white colour after catching a marlin, here is one I hooked a fish on last week that had done it, I thought this was normal, or is it that I am using crap leader?

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote kaveman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 7:00am
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Bull,  all leader that gets pulled on very hard will go white and milky. Throw it out mate. I replace my leader if i see or notice "any" change in colour. Always rerig  any lure after a fish(marlin) has been caught later that night. Better to be safe than sorry, plus i buy leader in 1000m hanks so not expensive in the big scene of things

I always used Ande and even that goes white.

EDIT.  i saw a leader last week that was 400lb(MOIMOI xtra hard) and after a 6+ hr fight with a big marlin, the leader was totally milked out and the bottom 3 ft was roughed up to hell and where it finally broke by the crimp, the mono was badly worn, close to half of its  normal size. This was using only 7-8kg of drag.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Raging Bull Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 7:09am
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Cheers Kevin, I also replace my leader after a fish, or a decent hook up, just wanted to make sure I wasnt using crap stuff Ill stick with what I have then! 

Its amazing how quick a marlin can rough up a leader, this one was a fish that didnt stick, had it on long enough to clear the gear and it been scuffed up big time!

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tone E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 7:18am
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most of the milkyness in a leader is from the line being  finely sanded on the body of a fish as the line lays along the body. If the hook is in the mouth the first foot of line gets an extra roughing up or if the bill has struck the line in front of the lure. The other extreme wear point is where the line comes out the leader hole in the lure. A very active lure can weaken this point of the trace in a matter of a couple of days so always check it and trim and re-crimp if necessary...
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote kaveman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 7:22am
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Great point about lure heads Tone E, that is why i use rubber stoppers in the back of active lure heads( no problems then)
I have seen a leader nearly worn through after 1 day trolling using a very aggressive plunger and no stopper
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Marligator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 9:34am
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We hooked a broady last year which we lost after about 15 minutes, it was all tangled up in the trace and hadn't actually touched the bait. The majority of the trace was milky and I put that down to rubbing on the fishes body rather than any stress on the trace itself, as most of the fight was winding line back onto the reel as the fish raced to the surface. The blue we got in the weekend that trace was all wrapped around the fish with the only damage to the trace being about a metre from the start of the windon i.e 25 feet from the hook where it must have gone over the head/bill again. The whole of the trace and windon was milky from rubbing on the fish. So I think a lot of the milkyness on traces is actually a result of rubbing on the fish during the fight especially the earlier part of the fight when the fish is jumping, rather than stress on the trace.

Note I still replace the trace and windon if it is milky, just for piece of mind.
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If leaders..line are similar to most other  clear polymer materials... I think u will find that once they are stretched to a given elasticity, the  molecular polymer chains 'snap' and in doing so these broken chains are no longer clear.
Sort of the same effect if bend clear plastic and where it has bent it goes cloudy
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Lickindip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 10:08am
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soooooo your mainline comes under the exact same tension .... wouldn't you expect that to go 'milky' after fighting one fish as well if it was due to the tension?
would have to say it comes from the roughing up of the surface of the line by bill / skin
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Raging Bull Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 10:35am
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I would agree that it is likely to come from being rubbed on the fish. The photo above is the same piece, aout 2m of it is cloudy and 500mm is still good. 


At the business end it is scuffed to buggery too. I might go and tie a length to the back of the cruiser and the other end around a post and see what happens to it

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Steps Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 11:10am
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Originally posted by Raging Bull Raging Bull wrote:

I would agree that it is likely to come from being rubbed on the fish. The photo above is the same piece, aout 2m of it is cloudy and 500mm is still good. 


At the business end it is scuffed to buggery too. I might go and tie a length to the back of the cruiser and the other end around a post and see what happens to it


Yep would have to agree with that ....espec now its been explained the pic is of the same bit of leader....
please note my post wording.. the "think s" "if s" and the possible reasoning.
read what is written
I have seen some examples of loosing clairity when testing  my knots using my old myford machine lathe and scales on old cheap leader material... do not recollect seeing on any mono line thu

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Lethal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 12:38pm
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yes definitely bill/body rash/rubbed marks from the fighting of a marlin, not likely to happen so much on a Tuna..

have a leader here of 400lb fought a Tuna for 3hrs on it, then it was hit by something huge, so huge it was now traveling faster than it had ever done during the fight the Tuna was estimated around 250kg so you tell me what the hell hit it.
this trace which has like claw marks from just maybe a Giant Squid or a massive Gt White Shark has no whiting what so ever, the trace in question was also hooked up to a lure so i think we can all assume normally its marlin which make the trace go white/scuffed or what ever you would like to call it..   


Thanks for everything you did for us Eric. may you rest in peace, You were one of the real legends of NZ recreational fishing
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Raging Bull Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 1:02pm
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Thats sounds pretty awesome Lethal! I bet that had the bum clenched tight!

I made up a test rig since its too hot to do much else today. Took a loop around a tree and crimped it then a loop around the tow ball of the cruiser with another crimp. 

These two photos are with the weight on and there is no change in the colour.

I went until it broke. What happened was the main line pullback through the crimp about 15cm until the tag end popped out of the crimp. Went a good crack, was like a 22 going off. 

Now im concerned about my crimps, not my leader! Confused

Whats peoples thoughts on crimps? Is one enough or should I use two? How tight? As tight as I can squeeze with one hand or two? Have heard people say you can damage the line if you do it too tight. 

Thing with this test is that I put what I thought was the same amount of weight in to both crimps yet the one around the tree never moved. 


got a heap of stretch out of it after the weight came on. 

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Torpedo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 1:24pm
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Surprising that it slipped. Could melt a ball in the tag end and see what fails?

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Apex Predator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 1:25pm
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Surprised you pulled the tag through the crimp before the line snapped.  I wouldn't get too hung up about it because we use leaders more for abrasion resistance than the breaking strain so you're unlikely to ever have as much force on the leader when you are playing a fish as you just had with the test.

At a guess though I'd suggest that because the diameter of the tree is greater than the neck of the towball the pressure would be in line with the crimp at the towball connection but offset at the tree end?  This would put the force in line with the crimp at the tow ball end making the tag easier to pull through compared to the tree side.

I always use 2 crimps at the lure end and one or 2 at the clip end depending on breaking strain and crimp length.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Lethal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 1:47pm
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remember PP doing a test on hand pliers and the bench type crimpers,
the bench type won hands down,
but in saying that he said if you crimp the green type crimpers to there max with both hands your should be ok,
the other thing was to keep the crimp straight when doing two crimps together,
rotating the crimp so your coming from the opposite side each time helps keep it straight...

i agree with Apex P with doubling the crimps at the lure end, you being big and strong could easily put 200/300lb of pressure on a fish when holding the trace,

go get em RB time for another...
    
Thanks for everything you did for us Eric. may you rest in peace, You were one of the real legends of NZ recreational fishing
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Raging Bull Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 2:20pm
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Tried again, 

This time I used a crimp to join two lines in the middle as well as a crimp to make the loop around the tree and tow ball. Used the net size crimp down and squeeed it as hard as I could, this time the line snapped away from any crimps so i guess thats that sorted, use smaller crimps and tweak em up good and tight!

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote KikBac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 4:43pm
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What Apex P said. During the fight you have maybe 10kg of drag on the fish. Once you have the leader in hand the leader man can exert maybe 100lb max of pressure on the fish. A 400lb leader is designed to give maximum abrasion protection at the end game, nothing more nothing less.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Fishb8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 4:51pm
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That tree/towball test probably exerted 100+ kg of pressure. How much can the biggest, strongest wire man apply?
Mostly (all stripies) we have only needed a bit more than angler's reel drag to bring the marlin to the boat..definitely no more than 15-20 kg
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Marligator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 5:16pm
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I heard that with new deckies over on the Great Barrier Reef they would tie single strand wire to the wharf and get the deckie to take good wraps and lock his knees in the corner of the boat and slowly motor ahead until the wire broke, in no cases did the deckie ever go over the side. The idea was to give the deckie confidence that the wire would break before he got pulled out of the boat, unless he got into a position where he was unbalanced. You watch all those deckies when they are putting real hurt on the fish on the leader they get themselves nice and low in the corner or against the gunnel.

So yes you can break 400 pound leader.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Lethal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2015 at 5:49pm
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i agree with you Marlingator some guys can exert unbelievable pressure to a fish,
couple of guys ive seen haul a marlin over backwards while its was coming out of the water,
the guys broke a 500lb leader on Pacific Bluefin but that could of had some wear and tear added to it because the fight was over 11hrs but yes depending on circumstances and the fish has become so stubbing and everyone has had enough your not going to let the leader go anymore, something has to give either the trace/crimp/hook will snap in the end humans are pretty strong when the adrenalin is running high... 
Thanks for everything you did for us Eric. may you rest in peace, You were one of the real legends of NZ recreational fishing
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