Cost of service 60hp 4 stroke

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote nzmuzza69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2014 at 7:14pm
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Can you upload a pictures the service invoice?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote CBF-Whk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2014 at 8:32pm
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Originally posted by nzmuzza69 nzmuzza69 wrote:

Can you upload a pictures the service invoice?


PM sent.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote of2fsh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2014 at 9:50pm
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Originally posted by CBF-BOP CBF-BOP wrote:

Hi all

What I am getting from this is we paid less for our motors in the first instance but we are paying more in the following costs.

Don't get me wrong my motor has been outstanding for 400 plus hours and the fuel economy is legendary but it seems the after sales backup may be more expensive and if I had known this at my purchase time I may have gone with another motor??? That is what makes these forums so good for us.

In my last couple of services I have been charged for a "quicksilver service pack" which contains all the washers ,impellers etc needed for a 100 hour service. So needed or not I have purchased an impeller.

As to doing a self service the leg and water pump stuff is easy enough. It is the fuel filter on the high pressure side is beyond me. Also is there not a need for a fault log download?

Lemmy there had to have been a problem??

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Whk


No your definatly getting shafted by the dealer,never heard of a quicksilver service pack on my invoices ,theres guidelines they have to follow for a service under warranty but yours is out now,write a list of what you want done each time don't let them have a free rain
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote flyfisher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2014 at 9:54pm
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Christ I'm glad I own a two stroke after reading this thread! Agree sounds like a right royal shafting!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2014 at 11:23pm
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Service pricing is often not a function of what type of engine you have. More a function of how much the service shop thinks you don't know. Find a good shop and stick with them, but the definition of 'good' means that you get a reasonable price as well as a smile, free coffee, and a flash looking invoice with some brand name on it. 
I come across this a lot where people come to me with their invoices after the fact and they have been royally robbed. Occasionally I see them before they pay and then I arm them with the right questions to ask, or sometimes help talk to the shop if it is a friend. Most times that ends up with the price getting reduced. This behaviour is way more common in the NZ marine industry than you would like to think, and some of the worst examples I have personally come across are from big brand name shops. Always remember that the easiest money they make is from parts sales. So when they say "we should replace this to be safe" or change out 5 parts to 'diagnose' one problem, that is money in the bank. It is also common for an engine or part to be 'unrepairable' and need replacing. As soon as you hear words like those it is time for an independent 2nd opinion. I have arranged $2000 fixes to engines that "needed replacing" for $25000 (with the $5000 dealer margin of course). I have spent 4 hours servicing a $3500 'non-serviceable' part that the dealer said could only be replaced with a new one (with his $1000 margin of course). Be smart and always think about the possible motives behind what you are getting told.

Bottom line is either get smart or get robbed unless you are lucky enough to be dealing with a good shop. It takes 5 minutes to google up the owners manual for most engines, so google up yours and see what the service schedule is. Then keep track of what gets serviced starting with your past few invoices. Use that to take control of what is getting done to your engines in the basic service. Where something is found that needs looking at outside the normal service you need to either find someone external to check the shops opinion with, get the shop to show you directly the problem, or hopefully be in a position where this is your regular trusted shop, but get them to show you what is wrong anyway so they know you are going to check what they are doing rather than just write big cheques over the phone.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote lemmy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2014 at 5:59am
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Not sure why my one was a bit higher ($780) they said they had a bit of trouble getting the gearbox off and they also snapped a bolt getting an anode of the outboard bracket which had to be heli coiled, they also replaced the racor petrol filter in the boat.
Still happy with the job they did and will probaly go back there (if the boats in Auckland next time it needs a service) just ca,nt be arsed doing it myself even if I have the know how would rather be fishing on the weekends than working on Boats/Cars/Motorbikes.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2014 at 6:24am
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Did you say that the engine had only done 55hrs? How old is it?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote treedoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2014 at 8:52am
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Does an engine under warranty need to be serviced by an agent for that particular brand to maintain warranty?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2014 at 10:36am
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I can't quote 'gospel' on that, but I believe that under NZ law they may need to prove that the service agent was at fault before they can deny a warranty claim. You might be able to search out some examples. On the other hand, do you really want to take that risk. Warranty is a nice catch-all if the service guys stuff up, but it only works in that case if the service guys are an authorised agent. Once you are out of warranty however, there are sometimes lot's of options that may be better than the authorised agent. 
I look at how fast some big brand service agents turn over their staff and you realise that all you are getting is a brand name. The guy that actually works on your engine might have been servicing trucks last week or doing homers out of his garage. This is the name you really want to know rather than the one on the shop sign. Having said that, some shops have stable staffing and excellent management, so the value add may be a bit higher than just a flash brand name in those cases. You can usually work which shops are which just by asking around.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote MacSkipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2014 at 1:23pm
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Personally I would get the engine serviced by the shop that sold the motor to me - certainly while under warranty - because I would buy from someone I have already dealt with if at all possible, in a convenient nearby location, someone I know or at least like the look of. I do believe that if there is an issue post sale the guy who sold you the motor in the first place is more likely to look after you if you have a service relationship with him - he knows he will have your business down the track.
I made the mistake once of buying a lawnmower from a megastore - I had an issue under warranty and they did not want to know - they sent mower to local agent (who was a small mower shop) and megastore told me I had to pay X dollars to repair as my fault and would not budge - I talked privately to mower shop and they said he I had bought mower from them they would have looked after me but as I did not...they could not help - should have spent $50 more in first place and avoided all the hassle. I reckon if you expect after sales support make sure you buy from someone who says and can deliver. Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote lemmy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2014 at 3:39pm
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Originally posted by Tagit Tagit wrote:

Did you say that the engine had only done 55hrs? How old is it?


2007 its done very few hours for its age thats why i serviced it as soon as I bought it.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2014 at 4:28pm
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Good move. Might explain the stuck bolts as it may never have been serviced in the past 5 years or more. Makes the bill sound more reasonable. One stuck bolt can add an hour or more to the labour bill.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Kings Marine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2014 at 12:03pm
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A standard service for a 60 four stroke, which includes compression tests, water pump checks, all oil and fuel filters (proper marine filters), correct marine FCW rated oil, thermostat checks, lube, ecu diagnostic check, running checks etc. etc. etc.
usually runs $280 - $300 incl GST
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote nzmuzza69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2014 at 8:09pm
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Question for kings marine,do you use genuine parts or aftermarket?
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote RC1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2014 at 8:44pm
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for the price he said Murray that would only cover Labour and gear oil, consumables. Kings is dreaming mate. I would expect the service should cost around $480 all up including standard parts used. The parts I use are all genuine.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote nzmuzza69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2014 at 9:15pm
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Yes we are the same genuine is the only way to go,and most of the time no dearer.
just re read kings post and lots of checks not a lot of replacement.
If you have the leg off for a service you would be mad not to replace the impeller.
what's that old saying you get what you pay for,
We are happy to quote on any service beforehand on items we would expect to replace.
Check out our new facebook page Rodney Marine
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Tagit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2014 at 10:07pm
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Condor and NZMuzz - I am intrigued. I see around $150 - $170 in parts including Impeller, engine oil (2.5l), gear oil (0.67l), a normal can style Racor etc, and spark plugs. What did I miss? It surely isn't a 4 hour job to service a small/mid size 4 stroke is it? We service our own Honda 50's and whilst parts might be a little cheaper it is a 2 - 2.5 hour service and parts barely break $100 unless you need to do a thermostat etc. In fact since the impeller and plugs only need doing every 2nd or 3rd service you are down to ~$60 most times. Rags, corrosion inhibitor, and grease etc for consumables might add $8 to $10. After 2000+ hours of happy service on 2 engines I can assume that we haven't been getting it too wrong.

Interested why you would ignore the Yamaha service intervals and replace an impeller that is only due for "inspection" at 200 hours if it has done a lot less. Yes you can say that "the legs off so replace it", but that is another $100+ that goes on the bill. Do you advise the clients that the impeller is not due for another 'X' hours and give them the choice? 

To me $480 for a service on a F60 would take a fair bit of explaining if that was every service. As far as I can see, Kings Marine's breakdown appears to follow the Yamaha service schedule and funnily enough his price is about what I would expect to pay for a fair service. In fact I occasionally use professional service guys and this is the type of rate I do pay. Add another $100 for the impeller on every 2nd service to get $400, and a set of plugs for ~$35 every 3rd service unless the hours are big. I make a reasonable average service around $350 meaning $300 then $400, then $335, then $400, then $300 etc. Anything more than that would have me personally asking some questions.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote nzmuzza69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2014 at 10:33pm
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I don't know about other manufactures but Yamaha has a service time in the warranty book as to how long each service takes to do correctly.
No we don't tell our customers that we will change the impeller at every service,we find customers expect it.
$100 dollars for an impeller sound like you are getting ripped off!

there is always someone out there who can do the job cheaper but are they doing it correctly?

have you broken down the price of a fishing charter ,now that's another story


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote CanadianJohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2014 at 5:12am
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"there is always someone out there who can do the job cheaper but are they doing it correctly?"

looks like he just exained that pretty well.
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Originally posted by nzmuzza69 nzmuzza69 wrote:


$100 dollars for an impeller sound like you are getting ripped off!
there is always someone out there who can do the job cheaper but are they doing it correctly?
have you broken down the price of a fishing charter ,now that's another story

Are you saying that if you do an impeller change the cost of the impeller, labour to remove, install and test, plus any 'misc' will be less than $100? If so that's pretty good. Impellers can be a sod to change, especially some of the Yamahas where the keys can be hard to remove. I always allow myself an hour to do one just in case. Sometimes it can be a bit more and sometimes it is a 20 minute job. 

Personally I haven't found the connection between price and service standards to be that high in our marine servicing industry. Some of the most expensive places I know have done some of the worst work I have seen. Yes you want to avoid the backyard cowboys, but a qualified technician working on his own one day, is the same guy that a shop might hire the next day, or was working in a shop the day before.

As for breaking down a fishing charter cost, here is an example of one of ours -
9hr days fishing - $1200
Skipper does minimum 11.5 hours (30min prep and 2 hours cleaning). You usually end up coming in late as you gift an extra 30mins (sometimes more) so that the clients feel that they are being treated right. Clients also often arrive late and then think that they shoudl still get their 9 hour trip. So average trip is more like 12 hours of skipper time.
Typical trip for us is around 3 hours of running over the day
SO
Skipper - 12 x $30 = $360
Fuel - 3 x 15l x $2.2 = $100
Spare tackle, bait etc  for clients that don't bring enough - $20
Ice - $10
Engine mtce (so lets use your $480 100hr service cost)
2 engines x 3 hours = 6 hrs @ $4.80 = ~$30
Tea, coffee, milk, sugar, LPG (BBQ), oil, foil, condiments etc - $30
Engine depreciation - say service life of 3000hrs and say $16k replacement cost after residual value (2 engines). Add a little for major maintenance intervals, so $6/hr x 3hrs x 2 engines
Eng Dep - $35
Repairs from client damage (incl broken plates, glasses, broken doors & tables, damaged carpet etc) - $40

So basic variable cost is around $625 per day excluding all the other wear and tear that occurs even when things aren't getting directly damaged. 

Now lets say that you are one of the busier charter boats (there are 2 or 3 who do more, but at much discounted rates) and do 80 days per year. So your remainder after variable costs is $575 x 80 = $46000
So what are the other costs -
We have a $150k asset that depreciates (real depreciation not the much higher tax rates) at 6% per annum - $9000
We have commercial finance on the boat - $150k @ 12% = $18000, but the boat is significantly paid off so lets say $6000 (but it was $18000 in previous years)
We do a major cosmetic makeover every 3 to 5 years, so budget $2000 per year
You need to haul and antifoul annually - $2000
You need to do your SSM (now MOSS) at around $2000 per annum (incl equipment costs)
You need to do your own other maintenance on pumps, winches, chain, plumbing, covers, electrics, batteries etc etc - $averages around $5000 per year
You need a commercial berth - normally $14500, but we get ours a little cheaper so $12000
You need commercial insurance - $1500
So a new total of $39,500 once you have much of your finance paid down, otherwise over $50k

The wonder full profit is $6,500

Then to get your 80 days you need to use a certain number of booking agents. You also spend around another 60 minutes per booking in client liaison and invoicing, chasing payments etc. On top of that You end up discounting some trips or throwing in free extras, and in our case we have an office and associated costs that I haven't even started to include.

Bottom line is that the busy fishing charter boats make a wage for the skipper and not much more. We do it because it keeps our staff employed and we make better margins from other uses of the same boat. Having said that, we are in the process of getting the boat ready for sale as the returns do not justify the work required. Our replacement boat (very different) will be targeting a more profitable charter type as there is no money in fishing charters at the prices people expect to pay. There are a few other boats also being prepared for sale at the moment due to the high costs of the new MNZ 'survey' system meaning that they just can't continue.

There will always be cheap charter fishing because some guys will do it just to make a wage. That is until they need to spend money for a new engine etc and can't find the money. Then that boat gets sold and someone else with rose tinted glasses has a go at making a living from charter fishing. In a perfect world, all charter prices would go up around 20% - $30%, but the industry is full of people who convince themselves that they can get rich by doing their maths wrong. They keep the prices over suppressed and stop the industry from investing and developing. Hence why all the boats are old and getting older, as are most of the skippers. It is also why service levels on some boats are poor. When the skipper/owner is worrying about feeding his family or making the next bank payment and has to discount a trip even further for some demanding client just to secure some cash flow, don't be too surprised if the skipper doesn't go too far or stay late, the milk is stale, the bait is old, or the hire rod is junk etc. This industry really is one where you get what you pay for.

OK, that's my warts and all breakdown of charter fishing, so how about a detailed breakdown of a $480 service on a F60?
 




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