Rulon drag washers vs. others?

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    Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 9:57pm
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I hear this "brand" name bandied around a fair bit as more people look into reels with better performing drags etc.

As wiki shows there are many different variations of Rulon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rulon_(plastic) and the opening sentence goes something like
"Rulon is the trade name for a family of PTFE plastics produced by Saint-Gobain Performance Plastics"
I underlined the main point of focus.

And further to that if you're into some light reading
You may note it has been used for around 50 years so its hardly new stuff...

From the above link on drags; quote: "The surface area of the drag washers has no relevance to the amount of drag your reel can produce.  The classic laws of friction state that the amount of friction is independent of the area of contact for a wide range of areas"

So in brief there is Rulon and Rulon. Hope that lot helps clear up a few myths around this "wonder drag" material. Or at least confused people more.



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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote William Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 12:52am
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Quote From the above link on drags; quote: "The surface area of the drag washers has no relevance to the amount of drag your reel can produce.  The classic laws of friction state that the amount of friction is independent of the area of contact for a wide range of areas"


Millsy, whoever wrote that must have a very small drag
(He even brags about having a patent on it "US Patent 7,789,335" )

Actually he's quite mistaken about his application of that bit of theory to practical fishing. The surface area of reel drag has GREAT relevance to the performance of the drag under sustained load, and its durability.

In theory the "amount of friction" might be independent of area (for the areas they are talking about here) but the heat generated for a given amount of friction will be the same (same work done) - and it's better to spread that heat over a bigger area if you don't want the heat to change the performance characteristics of the drag materials. Further down in that article it says:
Quote More drag systems fail to perform because of problems with heat than any other problem.

The article talks about the solution to heat being using the right materials to act as a heat sink. But the rate at which heat sinks do their job is dependent on surface area. Firstly, the heat at any point of dag surface will be less if the drag area is larger (for a given total amount of drag work) and, secondly, the surface area of contact between the hot drag and heat sink material makes a big difference to heat transport away from the hot spots especially if the drag keeps working for long periods on a long running fish. So larger areas will not only be cooler, they'll move and lose heat faster, and be less subject to local deformation and molecular changes for a given total amount of heat in the system.

Also, bigger drag areas mean that minor surface imperfections in the drag washers and plates are more lightly pressed against each other to produce the desired total drag friction - so less likely to stick and jerk as the little bumps and depressions make their way past each other.   Note that just below the quote about surface area not being relevant the article goes on to say:
Quote The pressure must be applied with precision and uniformity or it will run away, go into “lock-down” we call it, and the drag forces will raise exponentially and uncontrollably.
But that's exactly the problem with small drag surface areas i.e. pressure spots

Even with a Rulon drag (which is a very heat tolerant material), a Rulon drag with bigger surface area will be better than a Rulon drag with small surface area, because the surrounding metal structures and heat sinks will cope better with transporting heat away, deform less, and there will be less pressure (per unit of drag surface area) required to make the drag deliver enough friction, all resulting in a smoother drag, less wear, and less permanent compression of the drag washers.

The top end spin reels putting out 24kg drag these days boast multiple drag washers and plates - they all talk about increased total drag area. Why? Because it's smoother at higher drag pressures, effectively dilutes the heat by spreading it so it can deliver high drag for longer before crapping out, and there are more surfaces and material to dissipate the heat faster.

So the article completely misses the key benefits of larger drag area, and then even contradicts itself. Apart from that, quite an interesting read

PS: He advises against buying sealed drags. Not a lot of high end fly reel manufacturers are paying attention to that advice these days    Maybe he's hoping Charlton Reels will send him a freebie Mako to challenge his theory.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Millsy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 7:25am
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Cheers Will, nice counter explanation.  



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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote desmofrankie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 8:48am
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William I think that blogger is actually saying the same thing as you: he says that "The surface area of the drag washers has no relevance to the amount of drag your reel can produce", he didn't say that it has no influence on how long or how consistently it can produce it.
And that's where indeed size comes into line just like for any car/bike/anything else's brakes...


Personally I'm all for sealed drags for land based fishing, personal choice and I'm conscious that the main inconvenient related to that choice is that a closed unit also enclose the heat more than an open one and usually needs to go back to factory if things go wrong.(Hence why I'd probably get a big open drag if it was for boat use)

My new reel is both sealed and serviceable at home which was a big point for me, kind of the best of both world!
In fact the maker offered to send me a set of carbon disks so that I can swap some or all of the teflon ones for saltwater/fast fish use. 
They came to the same point as that article: Teflon is great with light tippet/freshwater fish due to it's smoothness and the low startup inertia it generates but as it doesn't handle the heat too well for saltwater use a more heat resistant material is better suited even if it induce a little start up inertia (who cares when fishing 20lbs leader anyway)

As for anything it's mostly a question of personal preferences and marketing!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Millsy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 9:22am
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From another a discussion on the internet of Roulon.. 

For saltwater fly reels there are 3 main types of drags: sealed rulon disk drags, sealed carbon fiber drags, and cork drags.

Sealed rulon disk drags are by far the most popular because 1) they are the cheapest saltwater proof drag to manufacture, and 2) they are very capable of most species of fish. Ross Reels, Lamson/Waterworks, Cortland, Orvis, and Sage are just some of the companies that use these types of drags. They are capable of continuously landing fish of up to tarpon size without failure. Downfalls to this type of reel are that the rulon disks heat up quickly resulting in drag pressure loss during long battles, and this material has the greatest start up inertia of any drag system which CAN result in broken tippets when using light line such as when line class records are the focus. Overall, for normal use such as inshore fishing with normal leaders of +10lbs, these are great drags, and they are maintanence free. Normally reels with these types of drags range from $75-450.

Sealed carbon fiber drags are relatively new in fly reel drags. They are a great drag component because they resist heating up and maintain the drag pressure unlike the rulon does, but they cost quite a bit more. Ross Momentum, Natilus NV, and a couple others now maufacture reels with these types of drag systems. They have very low startup inertias, can handle any size fish out there, and are maintanence free. Reels with these types of drags range from $450-600.

Cork drags are the finest drags made. Companies like Abel, Tibor, Old Florida, and Orvis make reels with these types of drags. They have the lowest startup inertias ever because the cork compresses to EASE into the drag setting, and because of this account for almost all IGFA line class records year after year. They can tame anything that swims, and usually have the lightest and strongest drag settings.These reels use the finest components made, and usually have no plastic parts throughout the reel. They are top of the line, but are usually the most expensive reels out there, with Abels ranging from +$700, Tibors at +$600, Old Florida (no longer exists, now owned by Nautilus) ranging from $200-400, and Orvis' Vortex ranging around $400. They do require maintanence about 2x a year, but are the reels that owners will pass down to their kids one day.”



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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Pole Dancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 11:43am
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Originally posted by desmofrankie desmofrankie wrote:

As for anything it's mostly a question of personal preferences and marketing!

That might well sum a lot of it up.
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Originally posted by Clark Reid Clark Reid wrote:

Originally posted by desmofrankie desmofrankie wrote:

As for anything it's mostly a question of personal preferences and marketing!

That might well sum a lot of it up.
 
Well put boys!  Personally Iv got a few reels with cork drag, and I have to say im really not keen on it as a drag material.  It can work well, but it also can cause endless issues, if you like a truly smooth drag.  (this is coming from a man that services all his own reels, from high end spinning reels through to heavy game reels as well as my fly reels).
 
You will notice that game reels and pretty much all spinning reels stopped using cork (or oiled leather as was once fashionable) as a drag material back around the 70ies.   Modern man made materials are far better as a drag material IMO. 
 
Iv got a beautiful solid 8-9# reel with a cork drag, and do you think I can get that thing to have a truly smooth drag?  Iv replaced the cork, polished the drag surface etc....Cry In the end iv decided to buy a new reel with a modern sealed drag instead. 
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I've got reels with all of the above and I like every one. I'm not an engineer so don;t get too far into that side of things. I just like stuff that works, and I have models of all types that work... at the end of the day, that's all I want. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Flogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 1:10pm
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Amen to that.
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Interesting thread. I have a TFO with a cork drag (unsealed), and it's hopeless once it gets wet. If the reel gets dunked, I have to pull it apart and dry the drag washer and housing. Pain in the neck.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote desmofrankie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 1:55pm
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Both sources are actually contradictory on some points, I guess that says it all about how much it's a question of opinion...


The thing is: at the end of the day even IF someone was really able to create a drag system providing a constant pressure despite the heat generated by long runs and so on.... we still wouldn't benefit from a constant drag pressure in the real life because having 200m of line out generate water drag and reduces the diameter of which the line comes off (increasing the effect of your drag by quite a lot)
So?
We're just chasing mirages and finding excuses to buy that cool bling new gear we want. Cool
Nothing wrong with that as long as we don't try to convince others that they need it too...

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Originally posted by desmofrankie desmofrankie wrote:

We're just chasing mirages and finding excuses to buy that cool bling new gear we want. Cool
Nothing wrong with that as long as we don't try to convince others that they need it too...
 
 
ShussssssssssssssssssssssssssssLOL Don't let my wife hear you say that!!!  I NEED a new 8-9# reel Frank!!! Tongue
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Good point Frank.

I know when I was fishing 1 and 2kg spin gear I made sure the reels drag didn't function at all. I preferred the hand on the spool for feel. 

I doubt that for most inshore applications it really matters what the drag is made of and as you say Frank, flyline itself is a mighty fine drag.

Main thing for me is being sealed. I would fish at least 100 days a year, likely more than that. I would find a weakness in an unsealed drag for sure.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote William Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 2:37pm
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Originally posted by desmofrankie desmofrankie wrote:

William I think that blogger is actually saying the same thing as you: he says .<snip>, he didn't say that it has no influence on how long or how consistently it can produce it.


Maybe he is, I don't know    ... but my post was definitely motivated by his apparent omission of any comment (I read most of his blog) on the importance of large drag area and the problems of small area drags that need more pressure to work. Instead he highlighted the "no relevance" theory bit.

The guy is clearly in favour of Rulon. I actually have no problem with Rulon. Many of my reels have Rulon drags and I've never had a problem. The best ones have big area multi-disk Rulon drags and solid drag housings to keep things ridged and suck the heat away.

I have several great reels with proven cork drags - I love how they press against large metal surfaces to take the heat away. Of course cork melts are not unknown, but I suspect lack of TLC might be a contributory factor - they really do need that bit of neatsfoot oil or the Cals grease I put on mine. Cork is obviously reliable enough to still be used in many of the world's best reels. Cork maybe lacks a bit in top end drag pressure if you go far beyond 20lb tippet but hey, there's always the rim if you think you need more

I have had a cook up on a striped tuna with an Orvis reel using a Broflon drag system - it had stacked disks but relatively small diameter and airy housing with very little metal in close proximity to the drag system to act as a heat sink.

As a result it gives me confidence when I see really big ass cork disks or chunky multi-disk arrays with plenty metal around them.


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote desmofrankie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 3:06pm
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I'm with you Milsy: sealed drags all the way for me coz I don't have time for contamination problems.
I guess if it heats up in a fight I'll dunk it in water which will either cool it down if I did early enough... or seize it directly!

I totally agree that the heat sink is something that makes total sense, not taking it into consideration is like... designing a car without radiator? Stern Smile
But it's not good marketing material as you can't put numbers on it LOL

Now why is that guy so much in favour of Rulon?
Maybe...  (I currently hold a patent for a drag system for a spinning reel, US Patent 7,789,335, made with Rulon LR and Rulon J.)
It might just be a coincidence though...
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Ahab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 3:34pm
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This question is especially interesting to me in terms of a kingi fight from the rocks. I've caught three kings from the rocks on fly, and in each case I fought with virtually no drag. Each one went way out wide and knackered itself dragging around the line.

Had I cranked up the drag, it might have sent them berzerk! As it was they made a bee-line for Chile, admittedly through the weeds, but still in a more-or-less straight line.

A bit peripheral to the discussion really. But for my money, how a drag performs at the lighter end of the scale is more important than at the heavy end.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Millsy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 3:44pm
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Have to agree with you there Tom.  There are instances where a high end drag come into there own, but the biggest trout iv ever caught was a 14lb rainbow in a fairly fast flowing river on my tiny Lamson P series clicker drag.   I didn't at one point during the fight think "oh I wished I had a stronger drag".   if the fish turned to run, and id applied any high drag id have snapped the tippet.  Once the fish was coming back wind away!
 
Think you might have helped me make a decision on which new reel to get there Tom?  Was thinking about a Lamson Guru 3.5 or 4 but was concerned about lack of high strength drag.  There dam smooth at lower levels which is where you really need It IMO. Cheers bro.
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There's a world of truth in this. Winning a fight is NOT all about drag, a bit of skill and nouse goes a long way, especially with those greenback, no sense of humor buggers! Drag is King in the closing stages, and something that can screw you in the early stages. You got have drag... and a brain! Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote William Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 4:08pm
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Some interesting blurb on Rulon from latest aussie sensation Harfin Reels, which seem to be putting plenty runs on the board:

Quote Here is a bit of information for those who have been asking about our drag / or clutch materials.
We are using Rulon LR in our performance fly reels. We have used Rulon LR and other Rulon products in many engineering applications over the years and like other fly reel manufacturers we too have found it to be one of the best drag materials on the market.

Some use, Cork others carbon fibre, we use Rulon LR. It offers silky smooth performance under load, great heat resistance and as a reel designer offers great machinability and we can order material size to suit our application.

See below further information on Rulon LR.

Rulon is the trade name for a family of PTFE plastics produced by Saint-Gobain Performance Plastics. Rulon plastics are known for their low coefficient of friction, excellent abrasion resistance, wide range of operating temperatures, and chemical inertness. Common applications for Rulon include seals, piston rings, bearings, and electrical insulation.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harfin-Fly-Reels-Australia/458354207574570


Looking at their pics of reel internals there's plenty heat sink around that drag assembly. I don't know if the drag is multi-disk.
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