What is and what isn't fly fishing?

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    Posted: 22 Apr 2014 at 12:12pm
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AN OPEN LETTER TO THE
TAUPO FISHERY ADVISORY COMMITTEE

During my last fishing trip to the Tongariro in November 2012 I observed on two separate occasions two different anglers using a fishing method, which I consider is outside the universally accepted interpretation of fly-fishing.   Both anglers were using fly rods, fly lines, fly reels and artificial flies and so arguably were complying with the Taupo Fishing Regulation’s interpretation of fly-fishing:

“fly fishing means fishing for sports fish with fly rod and fly reel, fly line, and a natural or artificial fly:
Only fly-fishing gear can be used in waters reserved for fly-fishing only”

However, whilst the equipment was complying, the way it was used was not.   Let me explain.    Both anglers were using mono leaders, which instead of the traditional length of say 1.5-2 rod lengths were many times longer; maybe as long as 20m or even longer.   This allowed the angler to strip off whatever length of mono was needed to reach a given target and using a weighted bomb as the casting weight, flick a nymph out in much the same fashion as casting a spinner.    The irony of this is that had the angler done this with a spinning rod and a spinning reel he would have clearly broken the law.    

This method offers considerable advantages over traditional fly-fishing, which uses the fly line as the sole casting weight.
Very cheap to set up as no high-end equipment is necessary
Little casting skill is needed
No physical casting weight limits
No back casting room required.   Can be used in confined spaces such as overgrown streams
Contact fishing upstream, downstream/across and even static “heave and leave” fishing at river mouths is possible
In clear water mono does not spook fish as a fly line does
Can easily be adapted to casting mini jig heads and micro soft plastic lures
Line mending skills are almost superfluous
With practice accuracy is very good

I can assure you that this is not a figment of my imagination as I have used this method fishing very successfully in most of the North Island’s big river headwaters during the sixties.   With a flexible fly rod, using thin mono as the casting line, very light rigs can be cast a surprisingly long way, even with a small indicator.   Both anglers I saw using this method caught several fish in deep Tongariro pools.   As I had met them previously I knew that both were Turangi/Taupo locals.    One could deduce from this that this method is becoming known around the area and is likely to be adopted by more.

When I talked to one of the anglers about it he maintained that he was merely using the Czech nymphing technique.   This is an interesting point as in Czech nymphing the weighted point fly also acts as a casting weight but the distance the rig including a short length of fly line is lobbed is relatively short.    Further more with Czech nymphing the whole line outside the rod tip is lobbed whilst in the above described method the overhang from the rod tip is very short and the departing casting weight drags out most of the loose mono.   

As I read the current Taupo fishing regulations this method is quite legal, albeit only because the interpretation of fly-fishing has omitted a very crucial element; namely that in fly fishing the line and not the “fly” is the casting weight.    It is a small loophole with potentially serious implications.   If this method of delivering a fly remains unchallenged it will surely create conflict between anglers.   It will harm Taupo’s reputation as NZ’s premier trout fishing destination.   In the long run it will also have an adverse impact on tackle retailers since this practice does not require expensive fly lines or high-end fly rods.   

I do not know how widespread this method is but seeing two practitioners during one week’s visit shows that it could become popular, more so when its success becomes more widely known.   The difference between Czech nymphing and casting mono is very subtle and not easily picked up by the casual observer or uninformed compliance officer.   For that reason it is more than likely that this practice can grow a following as well as diversifying its applications while flying right under DOC’s radar.   

To guard against this happening two additions to the fly-fishing regulations are required:

The fly line is the only permitted casting weight.
Restrictions on the length of the leader.

On the way home I visited the Turangi DOC office and explained my concerns to a compliance officer.   I am sad to say I left that office with little confidence that my concerns were understood let alone will be acted upon.

Yours sincerely

Herb Spannagl

Since then the chairman of the TFAC has told me that this is merely an "Advanced form of Czech Nymping" and is legal in the fly fishing only areas of the Taupo fishery.    And there is me thinking that the TFAC is the guardian of our sport?

I am certainly not against advances in this sport that is constantly evolving.    However, there must be a fundamental definition otherwise fly fishing can mean all things to all people.

As it stands I can get my 12'6" double hander, load the reel with 12lbs mono, attach a bean sinker dressed as a fly plus a H&L globug and fire that from my shooting basket further out at the Waimarino river mouth than the world's best fly caster

Rainbow
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Agree with your sentiments 110% Herb & outlined much the same thoughts in the "Ruakituri spin fishing" thread.

Yes it is absolutely ridiculous that it can be designated as flyfishing when the points you make are valid & if carried to the extreme presumably a 15 ft rod ( what defines a flyrod? ) with say one or two metres of flyline, then backing between the leader & the flyline would still be deemed to be legal ........... absolute madness imo.

What is even more crazy is that such methods are permitted in the world flyfishing champs & has been proven endlessly anyone using traditional methods, generally does not stand a chance of competing against those using pseudo flyfishing techniques yet they continue to call them "flyfishing championship competitions"

Allow the methads if they so wish but please STOP calling them flyfishing competitions because clearly other than by hiding under the umbrella of misplaced logic, they simply are NOT
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote skunk'd_again Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2014 at 6:09pm
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I want to see this guy who can strip off 20m of mono in a heavily bush clad stream and cast it all without getting a tangle (because I want to shake his hand). Must be high skill indeed. I couldn't even do that in a lake. How does one cast all that line out, even with the bomb attached? I would have thought it easier to do some sort of roll cast than deal with a ridiculous bunch of mono sitting at your feet and hoping the the miracle event that it all passes perfectly through the eyes of the rod without tangling. Man alive, I have a hard enough job with a 20ft leader lket alone 20m!! haha Embarrassed

Bazza - Competitions are another thing entirely though aren't they. They hold no interest to me, seems to rob the soul of fly fishing and turn it into something cheap and tacky, just my opinion though.
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Originally posted by skunk'd_again skunk'd_again wrote:

I want to see this guy who can strip off 20m of mono in a heavily bush clad stream and cast it all without getting a tangle (because I want to shake his hand). Must be high skill indeed. I couldn't even do that in a lake. How does one cast all that line out, even with the bomb attached? I would have thought it easier to do some sort of roll cast than deal with a ridiculous bunch of mono sitting at your feet and hoping the the miracle event that it all passes perfectly through the eyes of the rod without tangling. Man alive, I have a hard enough job with a 20ft leader lket alone 20m!! haha Embarrassed

Bazza - Competitions are another thing entirely though aren't they. They hold no interest to me, seems to rob the soul of fly fishing and turn it into something cheap and tacky, just my opinion though.


Met a likeable young German guy on the Ruakituri & we fished together for a day. He was using a Czech nymphing setup which unfortunately is deemed legal on FF only water & altho in principle I disapproved of the method was intrigued by how effective it was for close quarter fishing particularly close into the banks.

Out of I asked if I could have a try & he willingly agreed giving me a few tips on how to use it. Now it may well be a special rod tailored for the purpose plus the leader is not simple nylon or flouro instead it is a composition of various materials along its' length but basically mostly very light yet strong & I found it relatively easy to cast with very little effort after about my third try. What did amaze me was how fast it sunk along with how sensitive it was, as could feel every little touch of the heavy bottom nymph touching this or that & by slowly lifting the rod tip it could easily be kept barely on the bottom placing the number two & three nymphs above it drifting in the prime feeding area. I did not manage to get a touch as far as I am aware but was told that it feels different to the "bounce on a rock"" no matter how subtle hence the reason it is so effective.

It is claimed that we conventional flyfishers do not even detect 70% or more of takes plus spook many, whereas these other methods detect over 90% without spooking & having watched then tried the pseudo version can well believe it.

To summarise ....... it is a highly effective method & has its' place on certain waters BUT fly fishing it AIN'T !!!   
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote skunk'd_again Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2014 at 10:15pm
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I felt compelled to watch a youtube video on it to learn a bit more about it after reading that. One thing I don't fully understand about it, how do you stay in "contact" with the nymphs yet allow them to drift naturally. I guess this is the main skill to it. I saw in the video the guy was using a high vis line, which I guess acts as a sort of indicator if you can't stay in contact with them. It would be interesting to give it a go, but I can't imagine I'd switch purely to that method, as I'd miss casting too much. I imagine they'd lose a hell of a lot of nymphs too, but I did hear in the video there are different style of hooks for this method.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2014 at 11:23pm
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What I observed was not Czech nymphing as it is commonly understood.    I believe that the advocates of this mode are trying to get a definition for Czech nymphing.    As it is mainly used in completion fishing it cant be left without some sort of rules.     As for casting mono you would not need to cast 20m on small bush clad stream.     You could strip the fine mono into the water and cast it off there or you could strip it on the cobbles or into a shooting basket with cable ties on the bottom BTW nymphs don't need to drift drag free to catch fish.     Have you ever tried swinging a nymph?   I do that quiet a lot on the Tongariro Lower Bridge Pool or the Mayor where downstreamers cant get a back cast.    With the TRC I have these sections all to myself and catch heaps of fish swinging a #10 sparkle bead head behind a super heavy bomb..

I had a guy ask me what form of fishing this was and when I told him that I was nymphing he said you cant be nymphing because you have not got an indicator.     Just shows you how tunnel visioned some people are.     

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Originally posted by skunk'd_again skunk'd_again wrote:

I felt compelled to watch a youtube video on it to learn a bit more about it after reading that. One thing I don't fully understand about it, how do you stay in "contact" with the nymphs yet allow them to drift naturally. I guess this is the main skill to it. I saw in the video the guy was using a high vis line, which I guess acts as a sort of indicator if you can't stay in contact with them. It would be interesting to give it a go, but I can't imagine I'd switch purely to that method, as I'd miss casting too much. I imagine they'd lose a hell of a lot of nymphs too, but I did hear in the video there are different style of hooks for this method.


Sorry SA cannot conclusively answer those questions because I don't know enough about it other than it does work.

As for a drag free drift .... I am inclined to think with conventional FF it is primarily the flyline that affects that & the more flyline that can be loosely held up off the water the less the drag. With the pseudo method there is no line on the surface therefore very little or no tendency to drag & keep in "contact" with a combination of line retrieve along with lifting or lowering the rod. Also keep in mind the length of drift is usually much shorter than conventional FF with more fast & furious working of an area with short but repeated casts moving on a meter or so each cast. Compare this to conventional where line needs to be brought in, time spent false casting, then a final delivery then usually waiting for the nymphs to sink
whilst the flyline could well be spooking fish before the nymphs get down.

Don't think the method would lose any more nymphs than con FF & would suspect could be less as they are bouncing along just off the bottom, not being dragged back with little control over their depth. In any event it would almost invariably be the heavy bomb or sinker on the bottom that would snag & probably the reason it is usually attached with a lighter tippet section designed to break for quick replacement .... the two nymphs above are tied on marginally heavier flouro using dropper setup & they account for 95% of the fish apparently.

Yes I think you might be correct about the colours acting as some sort of depth indicator but would wonder why when it seemed to me this was achieved by "feel" but maybe it is an ancillary aid in keeping the rig within the "ballpark" allowing
finer adjustment by raising or lowering the rod.

Like yourself I was fascinated to try the method but have no wish to switch to using it no matter how productive it might be!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Chris Dore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2014 at 6:43am
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What constitutes a trout fly these days?

With hard bodies, foam rubber and fish skulls, could I throw a rapala on my 6wt and claim it legal?
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I agree the method Rainbow is talking about is not really flyfishing,if this is where our sport is evolving to then I suggest the next stage is simply to allow spinfishing in all waters,,!!,,When I was a kid (oops, still am,,) will rephrase,, 40 odd years ago I was throwing fly with lead weights at kahawai and snapper off the rocks and beach,, believe me, 20 metres is no problem,, probably getting more like 50 metres (or more),, I think Chris makes a good point, however I reckon if you could cast a rapala far enough on a 6 wght you would deserve your fish
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Originally posted by Chris Dore Chris Dore wrote:

What constitutes a trout fly these days?

With hard bodies, foam rubber and fish skulls, could I throw a rapala on my 6wt and claim it legal?

i have wondered that myself, always thought about whether or not it would be legal to fish one of those big storm brown trout lures on a fly rod at tuai for the monsters below the power station...i mean you can buy smelt flies with a paddle tail so whats the difference???

(just to clarify i haven't fished one.....yet LOL)
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An integral part of fly fishing is fly casting. If that is absent than the activity is merely fishing with flies.   There is only so much weight one can cast with a fly line; it is self limiting.    The current definition of fly fishing at Taupo and throughout F&G is overly simplistic and quite frankly amateurish.      What these authorities should have done is to consult widely overseas for a more international consensus .       

Czech nymphing is nothing new.     I recall reading about it in a US Flyfisher mag probably 30 years ago.     It was called High Sticking and was promoted by Joe Brooks.   he used a heavily weighted stonefly nymph which he lobbed into fast deep runs and guided it through by raising and dropping the rod to stay in tactile contact with the fly.    A lot of take came when the nymph starts to rise, just what Jack Lasenby an other American found with is small spider wets.     Any Tongariro nympher would have experienced strikes just when the nymph started to swing at the end of the drift.      

Personally I am not particularly fussed over Czech nymphing as most of my enjoyment of fly fishing is casting and manipulating my fly so as to induce a fish to want to eat it.   Lobbing a set of flies around is a poor substitute no matter how many fish it catches.     Nor am I against spin fishing.     My real concern is ever increasing fishing pressure in sensitive head water fisheries and that does not mean more fish being killed.   Foot traffic is enough to put fish down. I think F&G has realised that in some waters managing the fishery is less difficult than managing angler enjoyment
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Rainbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2014 at 11:34am
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Could any"silver fly" participants at the World Fly Championship enlighten us if there are any rules governing a Czech Nymphing rig?    I would be very surprised if there were none.

Rainbow

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Here are the rules governing the international World Fly Fishing Competiton
ARTICLE 27: COMPETITION LEADERS.
27.1. A single monofilament leader, tippet included, may be used, with a maximum length
of twice the length of the rod used.
27.2. Leaders may be knotted or knotless, and continuously tapered down or level. A single
loop of max. 10 cm length may only be used to connect a leader to a fly line. If the
leader is knotted, the minimum distance between the knots is 30 cm, hanging freely.
27.3. Neither sinking nor floating devices may be added to the leader.

So there you have it, leader length is restricted to 2 rod lengths.    What I have seen on the Tongariro is neither fly-fishing nor Czech Nymphing.      One wonders what kind of amateurs are on the Taupo Fishery Advisory Committee?

Rainbow    

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Originally posted by Rainbow Rainbow wrote:


Here are the rules governing the international World Fly Fishing Competiton
ARTICLE 27: COMPETITION LEADERS.
27.1. A single monofilament leader, tippet included, may be used, with a maximum length
of twice the length of the rod used.
27.2. Leaders may be knotted or knotless, and continuously tapered down or level. A single
loop of max. 10 cm length may only be used to connect a leader to a fly line. If the
leader is knotted, the minimum distance between the knots is 30 cm, hanging freely.
27.3. Neither sinking nor floating devices may be added to the leader.

So there you have it, leader length is restricted to 2 rod lengths.    What I have seen on the Tongariro is neither fly-fishing nor Czech Nymphing.      One wonders what kind of amateurs are on the Taupo Fishery Advisory Committee?

Rainbow    



Does it mention anything about the max length of the rod?

If not then altho it might be a bit un wieldy or maybe not for Czech method using a 14 ft rod would allow a leader X 2 = 28ft
plus the knot @ 4 " then the rod length + 14 ft & say using 8 ft of flyline then according to my calculations that totals just over 42 ft. surely sufficient to allow medium range Czech nymphing.

Either way I totally agree with you that to qualify as flyfishing the flyline powered by the rod should be the only component
used to carry the leader & flies. If any setup is reliant on the weight on the end of the leader to propel the leader & flies via the rod then that is definitely NOT flyfishing therefore should NOT be allowed in FF only water.
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Max Length "One conventional fly rod, not more than twelve feet/three hundred and sixty-six 
centimetres in length, may be used at one time"

Download for comp rules "http://www.fips-mouche.com/index.php?option=com_docman&Itemid=11"
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I recently read an article about fly fishing on the net , now this was an ethical observation and not stating a regulation as such , food for thought .

It went something like the angler should be able to cast the flyline a minimum of 4 false casts.
You may not be using that amount of false casts , roll casting ,TRC etc. But should be capable of doing it with there set up.

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Seriously, I detest this methodology and wouldn;t do it myself and am not convinced it fits within the regs, but that would be for  a F&G prosecution and a magistrate to determine.... all this effort for this fellas?
Is this really the biggest threat to our fisheries? If so we are in great shape, but we are not in great shape... eye on the ball fellas... once again, instead of dividing our ranks by attacking each other, let's work together to make progress, not cause divisions and ill feeling among our own ranks of folks ALL OF WHOM are in favor of healthy fisheries and clean water.,
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Somehow this thread got side-tracked onto Czech nymphing, which was not its original purpose.    As I said what I have observed is neither fly fishing nor Czech nymphing and is the direct result of people exploiting a loophole in the inadequate definition of fly fishing in both the Taupo and F&G rules.     As such it is legal and until these two bodies wake up and seek an international consensus on what constitutes fly fishing there wont be any prosecutions and judges never convict anybody who abides by the law.

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